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dalembert against the sonics
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fishmike
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12/29/2004  2:53 PM
so do I but I am willing concede an adjustment period.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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franco12
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12/29/2004  3:03 PM
Does Nazr impact the game? On the offensive end, yes- he finishes around the basket nicely & grabs offensive rebounds- he fits nicely with Marbury & Crawford slashing into the lane.

One the defensive end, he is a bit of a liability.

The thing about Dalembert- yes, big change on the defensive end- having a tall skinny shot blocker might ignite some fast breaks that get some easy points for us- but on the offensive end, he's not much of a force. Might he develop something besides the put back? And- think about this- all those drives to the basket that Nazr cleans up and gets fouled on- he makes the other team pay- Dalembert can't shoot fts and that will cost you.

If he became the next Marcus Camby, I think most would agree that would be pretty good. Yet Marcus on the offensive end has yet to develop some kind of reliable weapon beyond the put back dunk.

I dunno- the way this team is constructed right now- we're going to outscore teams- not strangle them like Detroit did last year on the march to the championship. Can you remove one important offensive cog, add to the defense and not end up mediocre?

wait, we are mediocre right now- guess it doesn't matter...

BTW- I like Dalembert's game- I am not so sure you just don't keep Nazr and keep on the look out for the next Dalembert- just like we got Ariza.
djsunyc
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12/29/2004  3:05 PM
can't we all just get along.

i think it comes down to this, if you think that a team with nazr mohammed and/or kurt thomas starting at the 5 and 4 is able to get to a championship level, then you're fooling yourselves.

that's the frontcourt of a .500 team, like people said in the previous posts.

let's say dalembert stinks it up if we do trade for him, i wouldn't be mad at isiah b/c that's the type of deal you have to make to get to that championship level.

look at dallas (who's at one end of the spectrum) - they move big parts of their team every single season b/c they know that the team as is, is not able to win it all. so i don't get why people are so hung up on moving nazr or kurt.

look at the foresight of grunfeld. he made the ballsiest move in my history watching the knicks and that's trade charles oakley, charles F'N oakley, for an injury prone camby. and that trade turned out great for us.

it takes foresight and luck to build a championship contender and nazr and kurt are pieces that get moved (if they're your starters) to aquire those pieces to get to the next level.
franco12
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12/29/2004  3:31 PM
you can't lay the blame for this not being a championship team at the feet of KT & Nazr- because if we have a young Michael Jordan on the team, yes, they would be the starting front court of a championship team!!!

Its about having the most talent at the five positions on the floor and the team with the most usually wins.

My only point is that before you trade Nazr, just be certain of what you are giving up. No, he's not going to the all star game and Shaq will eat him for an appetizer when we play the Heat.

I agree also that Dalembert's apparant standing with the sixers organization has probably never been lower and if you're going to get him, now is probably the best time.

It would be a risk to trade Nazr for Dalembert (that's assuming we're still discussing that kind of exchange) and the Knicks (Orlando vistory) are just seemingly starting to gel- I'm happy to stay the course with what we have, see what kind of talent we can get over the summer with a draft pick & some expiring deals.
fishmike
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12/29/2004  3:37 PM
Franco... how is NAzr an impact on the offensive end? His put backs are just him feeding off the guard play. He doesnt create any space, he doesnt draw a double team, he cant carry a scoring load at any given time, he doesnt force the opposition to gameplan against him.

He gets points, but most of what he gets is fed off of the actual impact players we do have on offense.

Marbury is an impact player on offense. Crawford is, Houston was and looks like he's not far from being again, and TT showed flashes last year, but has obviously been a disapointment this year, Orlando game aside.

Dalembert has that impact of D. Instead of attacking the basket players take more midrange/pull up jumpers. The adjust their shots i mid air, they are forced to change because of the presence of a shotblocker. Its not the extra 2 blocks a game you get, its the impact that person has on the floor.

Anyone watch the Spurs this year? Look at how many games they have won while TD only gives you like 18/8. Its the presence on the floor that changes the game, just as much as the #s.

You look at a guy like Ratliff and his numbers and think we dont need him, no big deal, but if you watch him play his impact on the game is clear as day
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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12/29/2004  3:42 PM
Posted by franco12:

you can't lay the blame for this not being a championship team at the feet of KT & Nazr- because if we have a young Michael Jordan on the team, yes, they would be the starting front court of a championship team!!!

Its about having the most talent at the five positions on the floor and the team with the most usually wins.

My only point is that before you trade Nazr, just be certain of what you are giving up. No, he's not going to the all star game and Shaq will eat him for an appetizer when we play the Heat.

I agree also that Dalembert's apparant standing with the sixers organization has probably never been lower and if you're going to get him, now is probably the best time.

It would be a risk to trade Nazr for Dalembert (that's assuming we're still discussing that kind of exchange) and the Knicks (Orlando vistory) are just seemingly starting to gel- I'm happy to stay the course with what we have, see what kind of talent we can get over the summer with a draft pick & some expiring deals.
I'm happy with that also, but if you have an opportunity along the way to do something like get Sam you HAVE to pull the trigger.

As for blaming KT and Nazr you absolutely do. I'm happy with what Nazr gives us, and I'm only looking to move him for an athletic 5. So if Curry, Chandler, Kwame or Dalembert is available you move Nazr for one of those guys in a heartbeat.

We get beat at 3 spots every night: PF, SF (hopefully TT keeps playing like he has) and when Marbury is out.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Marv
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12/29/2004  3:49 PM
I make the deal. To me it's the right kind of risk, just like I thought the TT/Nazr for KVH/Doleac was. Btw I wouldn't take the Chandler risk. I don't have confidence that his back will hold out or that he's a center in this league.
franco12
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12/29/2004  3:55 PM
Nazr is able to clean up with the put backs and dish offs- not every big has the good hands or the nose for the ball that he has exhibited.

Would we have the record we do now if instead of Nazr we still had Doleac and Mutombo? Mutombo had a pair of bricks for hands the footwork on the offensive end of a cinder block.

Also- not everything in basketball is the result of physical ability- look at someone like John Stockton & Steve Nash- not big or especially fast players- but they're skilled.
Marv
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12/29/2004  4:00 PM
Posted by franco12:


Would we have the record we do now if instead of Nazr we still had Doleac and Mutombo?

Thanks to the good work of IT that isn't really the question now. It's more will we have a better record in the future if we have Dalembert instead of Nazr.
franco12
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12/29/2004  4:07 PM
I have to admit one thing I have against Dalembert is that he reminds me of Marcus 'Brittle' Camby- and I hate to see us trade for him and for him to start breaking down like Camby did.

If IT made the trade, I'd trust his judgement.

But, can we get anything better than Dalembert with Nazr and other pieces?
fishmike
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12/29/2004  4:09 PM
actually as a bench player Mutumbo would really help us. Again, its about the future and that means getting younger talented guys like Crawford even if it hurt you in the short term. I be we would be 18-10 or close to that if we had Deke for 15-20 minutes a game behind Nazr. Does anyone miss him though? Does anyone care?

Think future.. its hard to be patient.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
tkf
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12/29/2004  4:14 PM
Posted by fishmike:

so do I but I am willing concede an adjustment period.

and the knicks can do that, because they are young enough, Steph, craw, sweets, ariza, and even TT are all young or pretty young players...

I feel you fish..
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
fishmike
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12/29/2004  4:14 PM
Posted by franco12:

I have to admit one thing I have against Dalembert is that he reminds me of Marcus 'Brittle' Camby- and I hate to see us trade for him and for him to start breaking down like Camby did.

If IT made the trade, I'd trust his judgement.

But, can we get anything better than Dalembert with Nazr and other pieces?
Maybe, maybe not. We could have had Ratliff/Rahim instead of Marbury if we waited, or maybe nothing at all.

I would say you have a fair shot at landing Curry, Kwame, Swift or Chandler using Nazr this offseason as part of a sign and trade. Depending on their value at the time you might have to include Ariza, the rights to your #1, take back a bad deal, or all of the above.

The other option is always nothing. This is the scary business of the NBA GM, you cant afford to do nothing, but you cant afford to overpay either.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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12/29/2004  4:47 PM
New York trades: C Nazr Mohammed (12.3 ppg, 9.4 rpg, 0.4 apg in 30.1 minutes)
New York receives: PG Kevin Ollie (1.6 ppg, 0.9 rpg, 1.1 apg in 8.0 minutes)
C Samuel Dalembert (5.6 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 0.6 apg in 22.4 minutes)
SG John Salmons (4.8 ppg, 2.4 rpg, 2.1 apg in 18.9 minutes)
Change in team outlook: -0.3 ppg, +0.7 rpg, and +3.4 apg.

Philadelphia trades: PG Kevin Ollie (1.6 ppg, 0.9 rpg, 1.1 apg in 8.0 minutes)
C Samuel Dalembert (5.6 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 0.6 apg in 22.4 minutes)
SG John Salmons (4.8 ppg, 2.4 rpg, 2.1 apg in 18.9 minutes)
Philadelphia receives: C Nazr Mohammed (12.3 ppg, 9.4 rpg, 0.4 apg in 30.1 minutes)
Change in team outlook: +0.3 ppg, -0.7 rpg, and -3.4 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED


can I go home now?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
gunsnewing
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12/29/2004  5:55 PM
Posted by franco12:

Does Nazr impact the game? On the offensive end, yes- he finishes around the basket nicely & grabs offensive rebounds- he fits nicely with Marbury & Crawford slashing into the lane.

One the defensive end, he is a bit of a liability.

The thing about Dalembert- yes, big change on the defensive end- having a tall skinny shot blocker might ignite some fast breaks that get some easy points for us- but on the offensive end, he's not much of a force. Might he develop something besides the put back? And- think about this- all those drives to the basket that Nazr cleans up and gets fouled on- he makes the other team pay- Dalembert can't shoot fts and that will cost you.

If he became the next Marcus Camby, I think most would agree that would be pretty good. Yet Marcus on the offensive end has yet to develop some kind of reliable weapon beyond the put back dunk.

I dunno- the way this team is constructed right now- we're going to outscore teams- not strangle them like Detroit did last year on the march to the championship. Can you remove one important offensive cog, add to the defense and not end up mediocre?

wait, we are mediocre right now- guess it doesn't matter...

BTW- I like Dalembert's game- I am not so sure you just don't keep Nazr and keep on the look out for the next Dalembert- just like we got Ariza.

I don't know if... you're gonna keep Nazr you desperately need a PF or Center who can post up and block shots. KT hits jumpers but doesn't block shots. I think Sweetney can average close to 2blks a game withj more playing time but I don't see him intimidating teams from driving the lane because he's too short.

If we have Dalembert and KT we really won't have any scoring inside unless Sam develops some moves down low under Aguirre the way Nazr has, but what if he never does? We'll trul be a jump-shooting team.

Say we trade KT and we have Dalembert and Nazr starting. That might be an even bigger disaster. Bottomline is if Dalembert is going to be our starting center Sweetney better become that 15 & 10 low post threat that elton brand is really quick. Otherwise we'll be the '99 Hawks.

I think our best bet is to give Sweetney more minutes. At least 24mins a game and see if he can be that guy and then we can afford to trade Nazr or Kurt. Don't you guys agree? We can't possibly be sure that Sweetney will be the next Elton Brand if he never gets the comsistent playing time to show us.
gunsnewing
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12/29/2004  6:01 PM
by the way...the Sixers will never trade dalembert to the Knicks for Nazr ir Kurt when they already have Jackson. I mentioned Dalembert's name in my last post but I meant a athletic shotblocking center in general
Killa4luv
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12/29/2004  7:27 PM
Posted by fishmike:

New York trades: C Nazr Mohammed (12.3 ppg, 9.4 rpg, 0.4 apg in 30.1 minutes)
New York receives: PG Kevin Ollie (1.6 ppg, 0.9 rpg, 1.1 apg in 8.0 minutes)
C Samuel Dalembert (5.6 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 0.6 apg in 22.4 minutes)
SG John Salmons (4.8 ppg, 2.4 rpg, 2.1 apg in 18.9 minutes)
Change in team outlook: -0.3 ppg, +0.7 rpg, and +3.4 apg.

Philadelphia trades: PG Kevin Ollie (1.6 ppg, 0.9 rpg, 1.1 apg in 8.0 minutes)
C Samuel Dalembert (5.6 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 0.6 apg in 22.4 minutes)
SG John Salmons (4.8 ppg, 2.4 rpg, 2.1 apg in 18.9 minutes)
Philadelphia receives: C Nazr Mohammed (12.3 ppg, 9.4 rpg, 0.4 apg in 30.1 minutes)
Change in team outlook: +0.3 ppg, -0.7 rpg, and -3.4 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED


can I go home now?

I like this. this could happen too.
franco12
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12/29/2004  10:14 PM
Actually- what about trading for Jamaal Magliore? I would think the hornets are in such bad shape, they might entertain some combo of Sweetney & Nazr & a pick?
Bonn1997
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12/29/2004  10:20 PM
Posted by franco12:

Actually- what about trading for Jamaal Magliore? I would think the hornets are in such bad shape, they might entertain some combo of Sweetney & Nazr & a pick?
I'd give up Nazy and take back a bad contract for Magloire. I definitely wouldn't give up Nazy and Sweetney and definitely wouldn't also throw in a pick. Magloire's not THAT great. He's just a nice 13/9 player. He's a small notch above Nazy. I wouldn't do the trade right now either because 2 months without Magloire and without Nazy would really hurt the season.
fishmike
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12/29/2004  10:23 PM
Posted by franco12:

Actually- what about trading for Jamaal Magliore? I would think the hornets are in such bad shape, they might entertain some combo of Sweetney & Nazr & a pick?
very tough... I'm so very high on Sweetney right now and am convinced he will really break out. Anyone see him pushing KG away from the basket, forcing into long turnaround jumpers?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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