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diop and wagner update (repeat)
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djsunyc
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12/16/2004  11:10 AM
chad ford wrote in his insider article today (i can't cut and paste it) that the cavs are shopping diop and wagner for SECOND round picks but would like to get a veteran player for if they can for the playoff drive.

THIS SCREAMS KURT THOMAS!!!!!!!!!

i can't think of a better fit than kurt + 2nd round pick for diop, wagner, and a #1.
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gunsnewing
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12/16/2004  11:18 AM
don't like that trade. Diop isn't going to get signicifant minutes over Nazr, sweetney and jerome.

here's what cleveland fans think:
"Diop is at best "ok", and wagner is a bust. Even if he were to finally develop, he's just a less talented, more injured version of Iverson."

" Diop is ONLY good for filling up space and blocking shots. Wagner doesn't seem like he is ever going to come around."
fishmike
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12/16/2004  11:24 AM
bottom line is we arent winning with KT. He's ok against inferior competition.
We have no boackup center. Diop has been bad but he's still a legit prospect at 22 years old. Remember, he didnt play organized ball until he was like 16 or something.
Wagner has also struggled buy might be a nice solution to backup PG.

If we could get a pick back from them I would send them KT. Maybe KT + Houston's #2 for Diop/Wagner and Cle's #1.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
gunsnewing
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12/16/2004  11:34 AM
Posted by fishmike:

bottom line is we arent winning with KT. He's ok against inferior competition.
We have no boackup center. Diop has been bad but he's still a legit prospect at 22 years old. Remember, he didnt play organized ball until he was like 16 or something.
Wagner has also struggled buy might be a nice solution to backup PG.

If we could get a pick back from them I would send them KT. Maybe KT + Houston's #2 for Diop/Wagner and Cle's #1.

wow! I almost ckoked on a drumstick when I read that! You think Wagner can be a backup PG when Jamal can't and at least Jamel averages 5assists!
fishmike
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12/16/2004  12:02 PM
Wags is very young... depends on what you want from your backup PG. He's lousy at running an offense, but if your ok with a scorer who can handle the ball and feed the post than Wagner could have big upside for you.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
newyorknewyork
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12/16/2004  12:11 PM
Id do that trade only if they add in there pick. KT will definatly help Cavs especially in the playoffs with all his experience. And may also end up hurting us a little in the immediate future.

As for the Knicks adding another first rd pick would be nice. Wagner is an upgrade over Norris though Norris may be better at running hte point than Wagner. Wagner has an ending contract so its not a big deal. Diop has size and potential though he may not have the motivation or work ethic.

Its basically trading one solid know what your going to get player for 3 potential prospects.
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gunsnewing
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12/16/2004  12:20 PM
How can you trade one of our best defenders. Let me rephrase that. The only one other than JYD for Wagner another SG. This is not much different than trading for another SG like Crawford. If we're going to trade Kurt it needs to be for defense or a guy with tons of potential or a proven scorer..preferring a PF/C. What if Wagner winds up on the end of the bench like in Cleveland, Diop is nothing more than a 10min a game player and the draft pick in possibly 20's is a bust. We could get more for KT.
TMS
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12/16/2004  1:47 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

chad ford wrote in his insider article today (i can't cut and paste it) that the cavs are shopping diop and wagner for SECOND round picks but would like to get a veteran player for if they can for the playoff drive.

THIS SCREAMS KURT THOMAS!!!!!!!!!

i can't think of a better fit than kurt + 2nd round pick for diop, wagner, and a #1.

why would CLE trade their 1st rounder if the article says they're looking to GET picks for those 2 young guys? KT is worth a midround 1st rounder, no question, but i just don't think they would do that...they are pretty much set in thier frontcourt w/Gooden & Z.

if anything, i think they might be more interested in a role player like JYD where they wouldn't have to give up any 1st rounder to get...but i wouldn't make that deal myself if i were the Knicks...i think Diop is a waste & Wagner would really have no role here anyway.

i say offer up Sundov & a 2nd rounder if they're desperate enough.

[Edited by - TMS on 12/16/2004 13:49:02]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
djsunyc
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12/16/2004  1:51 PM
this is CLEARLY a long term move. basically it comes down to kurt for a #1 pick and possibly a nice prospect in diop. wagner is a non-factor imho. he's gone after the season. diop has a chance to stick - depending on what aguirre sees in him. but it's tough to move kurt b/c he's playing so well but you kinda have to. this opens up the spot for sweetney and i think all us would rather start sweetney now anyway. secondly, we get a draft pick, which is easier to include in a trade than kurt or lo and behold, use the pick and get someone. thirdly, we may find a nice piece in diop. he may not be the answer but he may be serviceable. and if all he does is take up space and block shots, well then, isn't that what we sort of need.

i would make this deal and the time to do it is right now. it's actually a no-brainer for both sides b/c kurt is good and makes the frontline of cleveland better. kurt as a 6th man is PERFECT. i would love him to be our 6th man but we don't have frontcourt players that are better right now and probably won't unless we do move him.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 12/16/2004 13:52:23]
TMS
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12/16/2004  1:58 PM
so you're saying that CLE would give up a 1st round pick, Wagner & Diop just to get a 6th man for the bench & a 2nd rounder? i don't know about that one dude...i think they're happy w/Gooden & Z in their frontcourt, & it doesn't really make sense to give up all that just to get a bench player.
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fishmike
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12/16/2004  1:58 PM
it addresses needs for both teams. Cle doesnt have a good bench, especially up front. The Brazilian kid isnt ready yet. So does Cle trade 2 guys they wont resign anyway and a #1 in the 20s for a veteran player that will clearly help them through the season and in the playoffs?

As for KT he's great against inferior competition. Put him up against the Kenny Thomas and Brian Scalabrine's of the league and he's awesome. Put him up against the better PFs in the league and we get killed there. I'm not talking about Dirk either, I'm talking about guys like Drew Gooden, Jamison and Sheed. Sorry, but your going to see someone like this most nights at PF and we always get killed there.

I'm not worried about giving Sweetney more minutes and living with his mistakes. Lets get it out of the way now.

If Wagner can get healthy and centered he can be a nice backup for Marbury. Diop has upside as a good shot blocker and huge body in the paint. He's 22. If they both bust we get rid of KT's contract use the pick to add a guy like Simeon or Fry.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
djsunyc
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12/16/2004  2:03 PM
Posted by TMS:

so you're saying that CLE would give up a 1st round pick, Wagner & Diop just to get a 6th man for the bench & a 2nd rounder? i don't know about that one dude...i think they're happy w/Gooden & Z in their frontcourt, & it doesn't really make sense to give up all that just to get a bench player.

cleveland is actually in a position to make that giant leap, not just into the playoffs, but deep into it b/c they have a real superstar that looks like he just took the "next jordan" moniker away from kobe. kurt would help them WAY MORE than a first round pick, especially within the next 2 years when they have a legit shot at going far.

we're on the different end b/c we're rebuilding on the fly and trying to accumulate some young players to go with our veterans. we had one - sweetney and then isiah brought us two more this year with ariza and crawford. we need more and picks enable us to do that. if we're a 2nd round or ecf type team, then we hold on to kurt, but we're not so that's why we can get rid of him and that's why cleveland won't mind giving up a first round pick for a player of his caliber.
djsunyc
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12/16/2004  2:06 PM
Posted by fishmike:

I'm not worried about giving Sweetney more minutes and living with his mistakes. Lets get it out of the way now.

i think everybody would rather have sweetney start, at least i hope so. we need to know if he's our PF of the future or not and the only way to know is to throw him out there, for extended minutes. i think he's pretty much unguardable in the post. confidence seems to be little bit of an issue b/c of the fouls.
fishmike
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12/16/2004  2:50 PM
are they DJ? Its easy to say people want Sweetney to start because he's great for 10 minutes a game. Are people really willing to live with his poor interior D while he learns how to help? I love Sweetney but there is one HUGE problem with playing him right now. Marbury, Crawford and Houston are all poor at defending against penetration. Sweetney is poor helping. Thats why Sweetney has these games where he picks up 5 fouls in 10 minutes. KT is a very good help defender. Problem is opposing PFs. When you look at the production by position we get beat at PF on a nightly basis more than any other position.

Peopl are killing Crawford after 22 games and he's some pretty damn good ball. How long will Sweetney get before he's too fat or too slow to play PF in this league?

I think people are fulla crap.. its the back QB syndrome. The guy on the bench is always better, yada yada
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
djsunyc
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12/16/2004  2:56 PM
Posted by fishmike:

are they DJ? Its easy to say people want Sweetney to start because he's great for 10 minutes a game. Are people really willing to live with his poor interior D while he learns how to help? I love Sweetney but there is one HUGE problem with playing him right now. Marbury, Crawford and Houston are all poor at defending against penetration. Sweetney is poor helping. Thats why Sweetney has these games where he picks up 5 fouls in 10 minutes. KT is a very good help defender. Problem is opposing PFs. When you look at the production by position we get beat at PF on a nightly basis more than any other position.

Peopl are killing Crawford after 22 games and he's some pretty damn good ball. How long will Sweetney get before he's too fat or too slow to play PF in this league?

I think people are fulla crap.. its the back QB syndrome. The guy on the bench is always better, yada yada

i guess you're right b/c there's way too many posts bashing this guy or that guy after a bad game or two. and i can't believe the crawford bashing that's been going on. unreal.

so maybe i'm wrong in thinking others would be patient. i know i would be. i mean how else will these players develop.

isn't nazr the perfect example. he was ok at best last season and he started off this season poorly. but look at how he adjusted and now he's starting to develop in front of our eyes.

but to go back another year, look at frank. it took him over a year but he was starting to really play solid before he was dealt.

sweetney probably would get bashed after a bad game or two. people are already talking about "something's" wrong with him. oh well...
fishmike
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12/16/2004  3:01 PM
go back a month and I am sure you will find a boat load of panick threads because Nazr is garbage, and all this work w/ Aguire did nothing and we are srewed at center, and Islesfan is posting his daily sarcastic "key to the deal" remarks, how can we trade Nazr... on and on. I remember them well.

Now he's like 15/11/2 in december and Isiah is brilliant again.

No... fans will never have patience.. thats why GMs dont give a crap what fans think. If they are good the do their job with long term goals and a big picture in mind.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
TMS
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12/16/2004  3:27 PM
fish, to be fair you were in favor of the idea of trading Nazr too earlier on this season if i recall correctly...i know i posted a few myself, as did several others on this board who aren't what you would typically call "panic trade proposers" or overly cynical individuals who only exist to criticize Isiah.
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jaydh
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12/16/2004  3:52 PM
i would love this deal if it was (moochie or vinny)+$$+2nd rounder for wag&diop. the cavs were interested in vinny in the offseason.
fishmike
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12/16/2004  4:00 PM
what was the trade? I remember being suprised at how poor he was playing, but mentioned how he finished very strong last year. I'm not saying I didnt.. I just dont remember one paticular trade.

Hey, I'm still in favor of trading him, just not now. Every scenario for this offseason I come up I trade Nazr, because he' the perfect piece to use in a sign and trade. I want 3 new frontcourt players this offseason. One will be a prospect we get through the draft. The other two I want from a group of Swift, Dalembert, Steven Hunter or Chandler. I like Steven Hunter because I think we can get him for the MLE, and we can use Nazr in a sign and trade for one of the other guys.

But this is adding a couple guys around 22-24 years old.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
TMS
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12/16/2004  4:07 PM
the trade was a Nazr for Zo & NJ's 1st round pick i believe...i know i commented on that same deal & said i'd do it back then, & even now it would be a deal i would seriously consider...getting back a lottery pick & a C who can block shots would be a good value for Nazr w/his value at it's peak right now imo.

if the trade was to get Dalembert, Kwame or someone along those lines, i would make that trade too...

btw, i called in to Brandon Tierney's show last night on ESPN radio before the Knick game (not sure if 1 of you heard someone bashing Tim Thomas, but that was me ) & i asked him the same question about whether or not he'd trade Nazr right now for a Kwame Brown or Eddy Curry, & he said he probably wouldn't right now w/Nazr playing so great lately.

it's all just a matter of your viewpoint...do you like the more surer thing now, or are you someone who is attracted to future potential returns & willing to take a bigger risk to get there?
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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