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20 game report card
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martin
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12/9/2004  8:18 PM
I am just saving this spot and prepping folks to come up with some thoughtful 20-game report cards on the Knicks. I'll unlock the topic after the 20 games are played.

Topics of discussion: players, offense, defense, coaching staff, areas needed of improvement, areas where team has improved, rotation, bench, etc.

Sounds about right.

And dammit, it's a growth year, so be critical and don't just spew the negativity. Drink kool-aid before writing, but not too much.
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martin
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12/9/2004  8:53 PM
so apparently our forum software sucks and you can't sticky a locked topic.... but I did want to sticky this for a couple of days.

Please hold off on the post for this one until after Sunday's game. Thanks!
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Nalod
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12/9/2004  11:42 PM
Sip Sip Sip



Isiah gets a (sip sip) A++.

We are younger, more athletic, and he is not Layden. Sip
We are younger, more athletic, and he is not Layden. Sip
We are younger, more athletic, and he is not Layden. Sip
We are younger, more athletic, and he is not Layden. Sip

The Father makes us younger, More Athletic, and The Father is not Layden. The Father knows best. The Father will love us, and we will Love the Father. Layden is evil, Layden is not the Father. All that is wrong, all that is bloated, all that is not Isiah, is Layden.

"
[martin - dude, you kill me]

Need just a few

[Edited by - nalod on 12/10/2004 10:30:08]

[Edited by - nalod on 12/10/2004 11:35:10]
Bonn1997
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12/10/2004  10:09 AM
Martin, this is too tempting. We're supposed to see this thread at the top of the page every time we log on but we can't reply?
Nalod
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12/10/2004  11:34 AM
Everybody sing it groovy Sammy Davis style.........

"Who can make a sunrise , sprinkle it with dew, who can trade bad contracts and extend them into new, the Candy Isiah can,
oh the Candy Isiah can.

The Candy Isiah can cuz he mixes it with longer contracts........
ANd makes the Dolan feel good."

"the candy Isaiah trades, every thing he trades, is more expensive but not rediculous, even hype your championship wishes , You can even eat Knishes.........."

"The candy Isiah can cuz he mixes it with an MLE and makes the fans feel good.............."





[Edited by - nalod on 12/10/2004 11:38:27]

[Edited by - nalod on 12/10/2004 11:46:50]
Bonn1997
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12/10/2004  12:17 PM
Posted by Nalod:

Everybody sing it groovy Sammy Davis style.........

"Who can make a sunrise , sprinkle it with dew, who can trade bad contracts and extend them into new, the Candy Isiah can,
oh the Candy Isiah can.

The Candy Isiah can cuz he mixes it with longer contracts........
ANd makes the Dolan feel good."

"the candy Isaiah trades, every thing he trades, is more expensive but not rediculous, even hype your championship wishes , You can even eat Knishes.........."

"The candy Isiah can cuz he mixes it with an MLE and makes the fans feel good.............."





[Edited by - nalod on 12/10/2004 11:38:27]

[Edited by - nalod on 12/10/2004 11:46:50]
That made my day!
newyorknewyork
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12/10/2004  1:36 PM
Posted by Nalod:

Everybody sing it groovy Sammy Davis style.........

"Who can make a sunrise , sprinkle it with dew, who can trade bad contracts and extend them into new, the Candy Isiah can,
oh the Candy Isiah can.

The Candy Isiah can cuz he mixes it with longer contracts........
ANd makes the Dolan feel good."

"the candy Isaiah trades, every thing he trades, is more expensive but not rediculous, even hype your championship wishes , You can even eat Knishes.........."

"The candy Isiah can cuz he mixes it with an MLE and makes the fans feel good.............."





[Edited by - nalod on 12/10/2004 11:38:27]

[Edited by - nalod on 12/10/2004 11:46:50]

LOL!!! oh man Im starting to tear. I don't know what u have against Zeke but that was funny.
https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
Nalod
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12/10/2004  4:21 PM
Ain't nothing against Isiah.

Just laugh, that's all. We take all this too seriously sometimes.

Win or lose, its just a game!

Marv
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12/10/2004  6:29 PM
Posted by Nalod:

Ain't nothing against Isiah.

Just laugh, that's all. We take all this too seriously sometimes.

Win or lose, its just a game!

That was especially funny! Kudos!
MaTT4281
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12/12/2004  2:46 PM
Ok, it's been 20 games.
Marbury has looked great so far this year. The one knock on him, like most of our players, is his defense. It looked much better today though.
Crawford, through the first 20 games has been pure excitement. Buzzer beating shots, 31 and 41 point games. The Garden is in for some highlights from him.
Tim...you know what, I'm in a good mood. Let's not talk about him.
Kurt has been solid. You've come to expect a double double from him almost every night. His defense (to me) hasn't looked as good, or as bad, as many people have been saying. I hate to think where we would be right now without him.
Nazr has looked nothing short of great after Ramadan. He, like Kurt, has put up some very nice numbers. As it has been commented, he should be recieving considerations for Most Improved Player of the year.
JYD has become one of my favorite players. He has got to be our best defender right now. He is pure energy and does everything you can ask from him. I don't consider him overpaid for everything he does, and am still questioning how he was just a throwin for the Crawford deal.
Sweetney, I think I got my expectations a little high for, but he still looks good. I can still see him starting before the season is over though. He is a great lowpost option on this team on a team that appeared to not have any.
Ariza has shown me that he will also have a good career. Hopefully he is in NY for the majority of it.
Penny looked much better this season. His shot appeared much more reliable.
Moochie and Brewer have been better than expected. Last season I felt sick whenever Moochie came in. This year, there have been times (few, but they existed) where I WANTED him in the game. I didn't expect much from Brewer, but he has proven to be a decent backup.
Baker and Houston haven't played enough games for me to comment on. I have forgotten Bruno is even part of this team several times.

Defense is still horrible. It needs to get better if we are going to win the 45+ games.
I still expect to wind up 47-35 for the year.
VDesai
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12/12/2004  3:27 PM
Grade: B-

10-10 is not bad, but if you look at the games this year I feel like we left a few wins off the board. Defense has also been worse than I anticipated (and I didn't have high expectations at all). On the bright side, the offense looks good, the Crawford/JYD trade has been a huge boon, Nazr has stepped up, and Houston has come back.

Guards: This team lives and dies with its guard play...and I think we can still safely say that if Marbury is not playing well, so goes the team for the most part. But Steph IMO is starting to play some of the best ball of his career. He just needs to pick up the defensive intensity. Crawford can be so freaking good if he just uses his head a bit more and reduce the bad shots and keep concentration on the defensive end. Penny has been off this year, but still has the uncanny ability to make a big play now and then...we'll see what his role is when he comes back. Houston looks fine the last two games...he's adjusted well to coming off the bench and can be a huge asset for our depth situation. We finally have a zone buster as well. Moochie...well, he can take care of the ball and get into the lane. He can make you cringe but he's a more than adequate 3rd PG. Brewer is an athletic Rick Brunson.

Forwards: Tim Thomas sucks. He gets an F. He should at least score 15 a game and least give the threat of being a guy you have to guard inside and out, but he just flat out has sucked so far. Kurt Thomas has been very good with his jumper, his rebounding is way up and his help defense has been solid. Say what you want about the guy he's guarding scoring a lot, but from just watching the games, he's the guy with the best defensive effort out there. Sweetney has been quite good in limited minutes...rebounding is slightly down, but his scoring up. He draws a lot of fouls and is a damn good free throw shooter. Has to cut down on the travelling. Defense is improved. JYD is all out hustle...I really like this guy. He looks out of control offensively, but he manages to get baskets. He has also shut down opposing offensive threats for stretches of ball games. Ariza has been more than we could possible expect. He's better at doing what Shandon did well and he's only 19.

Centers: Nazr...what a revelation. Slow start but man he's come on. Great offensive rebounder (we knew that). Cleans up inside (we knew he could do that). But the big thing is his touch has improved and his defensive play is MUCH better. Last year I wasn't sure if he would even hit the rim sometimes...this year he's getting shooters bounces and his hitting about 73% from the line (he was like 50% with us last year!). Baker was horrible every time he was in untill the Washington game. He flashed his old offensive ability in that one...its a situation that bears watching.

Coaching staff: Lenny talks a good game about the D but no results so far. Might just be the players arent fit to play well on D, but we have also seen a general lack of effort. Offensively the team is scoring well, but in too many games this year they couldn't adjust to the zone. The rotation is strange...I feel like there are times when the Knicks need a post player like Sweetney out there but Lenny doesnt have the confidence to put him in. Also needs to stay with the hot hand a bit instead of subbing them out at the regular interval. Have to credit Aguirre for helping Nazr as well as Sweets.

Where do we need improvment? D. If we can just pick up the intensity a little but we should get a couple more wins. Still get beaten backdoor too much. Also seems like we have a tendency to give up an easy transition bucket right after we make one ourself.

What has improved? The offense. A lot of guys on this team are capable of putting up double digit offensive efforts. The 2nd unit looks like it could play a big role down the stretch. Not many teams have telent like Houston or Sweetney coming off the bench.

Where do I see us going? I still say about 41-45 wins. Not good enough to take the next step yet, but good enough to get a few games over .500. Defense and turnovers are the weakness of this team. Still some questions on how the rotation is gonna work now with Houston back, and eventually Penny coming back. I think ultimately H20 will get back in the starting lineup.
Killa4luv
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12/12/2004  5:15 PM
The team defense obviously sucks so I wont say much further about that.

I don't like our offense. We have pick and rolls and post-up iso. We need more movement on offense.

We need to feed players who are hot other than Craw and Marbs. No one fed TT when he was hot in the post in one game I forget who we were playing. Nazzy should get the ball more consistantly throughout the game, he is not just a garbage basket guy, he can actually score using some nice moves around the basket. We need to close guys out when we are up by 10 or more. We need to win the games we are supposed to win like the games against Orlando, Charlotte, and Washington. There are no excuses for losses like that. We should have won all 3 of those games.

all in all 10-10 is decent. I gave the team a B-

[Edited by - killa4luv on 12/12/2004 17:19:59]
MaTT4281
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12/12/2004  5:21 PM
Oh, forgot a grade? I'll say a B.

Killa, I can't remember that game TT got hot, so I'm only going to comment on Nazr. We get him the ball ALOT. It's usually through penetration, but Marbury also gives the ball to Nazr so he can post up many times. (His fall away jumper is becoming very reliable).
PhilinLA
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12/12/2004  8:52 PM
I'd go B-/C+

We have lost too many close games cause we didn't bother playing D or making out layups when we had the chance.

That said, the grade could go up. Marbury is amazing and the guys are finding roles. I expect another trade or two, but this team can be as good as it wants to be if they are willing to play consistent D, and show up every night.
http://amonthhoffundays.blogspot.com/ We got a ringer.
Masterplan
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12/13/2004  2:58 AM
I give the team a B/B-. we could be well better than .500 but we dropped too many winnable ones. haven't established ourselves as a winning team.

doing their thing, looking good doing it: marbury, JYD, kurt
exceeding expectations: nazr
question marks but overall good: crawford, ariza, penny
moderately disappointing: sweetney, brewer, moochie
very disappointing: timmie, vin

i also give shandon anderson an A+ for being gone.
nykdunk
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12/13/2004  8:15 AM
Grades:

Offense:
Considering Houston has been out for 18 games, others like Crawford have stepped us and provided us some points. Still, there have been many games where the Knicks go through long stretches of bad shooting. It hasn't exactly been a problem, but it hasn't been trouble free either. It should get better now with Houston back.
Grade: B+

Defense:
Consistently inconsistent. It looks like it can be split into home and road categories. At home, on average, we have had the defensive intensity which has made us satisfactory. On the road, we let the opponents do whatever the hell they want to do for most of the game, and usually lose because of it (albeit by remaining competitive). The defense needs to improve if we want to take it to another level. Right now, our perimeter defense is very weak, and we have no intimidators to really make up for it. It needs to change, the sooner the better.
Grade: C+ at home, D on road, C total

Overall:
We've won some that we didn't really expect to, but lost some where we absolutely should not have lost. We've been very inconsistant. It is now obvious that we are only going to be as consistant as our defense this year. If we continue to play inconsistant defense, we are going to be an inconsistant team, which has many ups and downs, and finishes at or below .500. If we can manage to get some consistent effort in that department, we may be able to end up with 47-48 wins.

Grade so far: B-.

[Edited by - nykdunk on 12/13/2004 08:16:06]
Marv
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12/13/2004  10:08 AM
Guards: Marbury - Very good decision-making, mix of playmaking and shooting, mix of driving and outside shooting. Mixed D - loses his man too often but comes up with steals, can really harrass his man when gets into it, gets back to stop break. Intangibles - real high ratings at toughness and relentlessness. Improvements? - like to see him establish the drive early and consistently, doesn't always do that. Has there been a guard we've seen yet this year that can contain him when he wants to get to the hole? Steph's in his prime - now's the time to physically dominate his opponent from the opening tap. Make the D adjust to him and that sets up teammates for dishes.

Crawford - WE're gonna live and die with this guy, and have a heck of a wild time doing so. SO talented. IMO he should drive much more often. He has the handle and passing eye to dominate that way, plus a great short-to-mid range jumper. His determination, nerve and body language are absolutely Starksesque. His D seems lax, needs work.

Center - Nazr - Seems like a confidence player. When he feels it, he's much more aggressive on both ends. Overall, terrific improvment on both ends. Seems to be getting wiser about fouls. He's been really good around the basket - would like to see him continue to work on paint moves, position himself, demand the ball. Continue activity on offensive boards - that's a real big plus from him.

Forwards - KT - His game seems geared to create controversy. A very major plus is that he's learned to control himself on the court. He's beocme a real professionsal - that enables the team to benefit from his strengths - his outside shooting is just superb for a PF and his defensive rebounding is excellent. Defense seems a little hot and cold, but sometimes is excellent. The fill-in work at C is a real plus too. Underrated but a real contributor. I keep thinking Isiah sees Laimbeer when he watches KT.

TT - oy vey. This guy will surely drive us all even further to drink. I'm actually a supporter and fan of his now because I couldn't stand watching the guy self-destruct any further. He does seem to be getting better and better though. Concentration seems better. The 2 blocks on Melo yesterday were an indication of his abilities. I've said it a million times, but he needs to move toward the basket more. He needs to fake his jumper and drive. He needs to work the boards.

Bench:

Sweets - Tons of talent. Supposed to have great work ethic. I like a lot about him, but can't help but think soemthing's off with the guy. Seems to do what he should about 1/4 of the plays. Why isn't he consistently posting or cutting across the paint? Why isn't he killing the offensive boards like he was last year? Why is he constantly commiting dumb fouls far from the basket? I still love his talent and believe in the guy but somehting seems off either in court smarts or focused intensity.

Ariza- this guy is extremely impressive. His drives and activity around the hoop are tremendous. WIth more PT and confidence he's also going to really contribute as a ballhandler and passer at the 3. He fouls too much and goes for too many fakes but shows a lot of ability on D. I want to see him get a good deal of PT.

JYD - hIs offense is an absolute disaster but his intanglibles are invaluable. "Go-to role player" indeed. Kudos to Lenny for playing him well. Too much Dog is not a good thing. He can be a great catalyst when the team needs a shot.

Penny- I hope he stays on IR a good long time. It must be tremendously frustrating to have your body continually fail to deliver on your basketball knowledge, but it's really time to realize that the way he plays and what he's looked to do when he's in are simply beyond his physical ability to deliver. Good guy but a liability.

Baker - huge disappointment. I bought the hype about his heart surgery and visions of a comeback a la early last year with Boston. If he's really the dead weight he appears to be, then end the charade already. If he's still getting his conditioning back and otherwise okay, then I hope he gets it together soon because we sure could use his former skills off the bench.

Moochie - cringe incarnate. For the occasional good thing he delivers, you have to endure a rise in your blood pressure that you can FEEL as soon as he enters. I start to watch the clock and look for Steph as soon as I see Moochie out there.

Allan - I love this guy. ALl negatives acknowledged, but I still do. He is such a boost for this team. I just want him to get confidence in his leg and get a bit of a mean scorer's streak going. He can be a big difference for this team.

Bruno - What can you do but laugh?

Overall Grade - B. 12-8 would've gotten them an A, 11-9 an A- or B+. I'd like to see a more consistent intensity from this team. more driving and pounding the ball inside, more intense board work, digging down on D.

Lenny - B. He's one of thse guys who pays the price for his demeanor. If he yelled, made faces, was more intense in his body language he'd look like a better coach, but I don't knon if it would really meke him any better of a coach.

Isiah - A+. Really it's almost sick to think about how he's transformed this roster in a year. Nazr, Steph, Craw, Ariza, JYD, even TT. Held onto Sweets, KT and Allan. Shed Spoon, Anderson, Eisly, Harrington. We have youth, all upcoming #1's except 1. We need more size. But think back to where we were a year ago. Whew!
bernard
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12/13/2004  10:12 AM
Well, I just checked the combined record of our first 20 opponents. It's 184 and 224, or .451. This soft schedule is somewhat mitigated by the fact that 11 of first 20 were road games. Still, I'd have thought our early schedule was tough if I hadn't added it up. So can't really use shedule as justification for being content w/ .500 start.

Also, We've lost 3 games I would have ticked off as W's entering the season (Boston and Orlando at home; Charlotte away). Won 3 that I would have considered toss-ups or probable losses (Houston away; Denver, Cleveland at home). Haven't won any that I would have said he have little chances of winning (Dallas, Indy, Minnie or SA on the road).

All this is to say, if we want to believe that the Knicks are a 45 to 50 win team, which I do, then they've got to pick it up. I still believe they will.

Getting Houston back is big. Also believe the "D" will improve (can't get much worse). And that team play will improve as we get more used to each other. And that Crawford will get smarter with his play.

Other than that, agree with what others have been saying. Nazr clearly is playing better than any of us could have expected. Steph and KT are too, IMO. Timmy is playing worse than anyone could have expected, as are Vinnie and Moochie. Everyone else is about where we would have guessed.

Oh, yeah. We're in first place! Sure, the Atlantic is an awfully small pond this year, but my goals for season are 1st place, 45 W's and 2nd round of playoffs. Hitting those 3 goals would keep excitement w/ Knicks, keep NY as a place good pplayers want to play, and serve as a good stepping stone for improvements over the summer. 1st 2 goals still look readily achievable. We'll have to meet them to win a playoff series (if we make those goals, we'll play 6 seed in round 1, and probably will have a better record than them, so will get home court too).
fishmike
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12/13/2004  10:14 AM
here we go...
Guards:
Marbury: C+
He's done what he's done everywhere else. Put up good numbers but really fail to lead his team. When he commits to playing defense he will be one of the NBA's best players but he doesnt do that yet. He's not Gary Payton. The Nuggets game was a revelation... will the real Steph please stand up? It will be tough to build a title team around a guy that doesnt play hard on D every night.
Crawford: A
We knew he was raw, had some bad habits, some suspect shot selection but I think we have gotten everthing you can ask from the 24 year old. He's super coachable, he says the right things, and he's shown when his shot isnt falling he will do other things to help the team. In 20 games he's also won 2 for us on buzzer beaters. He's been asked to shoot alot with no Houston and TT being terrible.
Moochie: B+
He's active and getting spot minutes because he comes in an plays hard on D and gets guys involved. Good job, more than I would have expected.
Houston: I
Incomplete.. lets wait and see. He looked pretty good moving against the Nuggs
Penny: B
Nice job off the bench for awile. Good attitude. Bad time to get hurt... will be the forgotten man with Houston back.

Forwards:
TT: F
Dont really need to explain this one..
Ariza: A
Plays a real role and an important role. When we drafted him most didnt think he would ever make the roster. Now we talk about him as possibly being the starting 3 in a couple years
Kurt: B
Pick and roll fitting well, has hit shots in crunchtime and kept his cool
Sweetney: B-
Want to see him lose a few more pounds but he progresses well. Unstoppable in the post, but still slow to react on D. Making good progress though
JYD: B
Good spark, energizer and role player. Overpaid at this point in his career, but more than a throw in w/ Crawford. Glad we got him

Centers:
Nazr: A+
Duh... guy's been unreal. Its funny people talk about the TT/KVH trade as bad. Maybe it was, but only because we *had* to take TT back to get Nazr. Go figure. At least we dont have to hear Islesfan's sarcastic comments about Nazr being the "key to the deal"
Baker: F
Dont know what his issue is but his spot on the bench is well earned.

Coaching: C+
I give Lenny credit for giving everyone a chance and benching guys when they dont play hard on D. Also for playing the kids and not just riding guys like Penny and JYD when the young guys make mistakes. I like that. Nothing outstanding here, but nothing I would say has hurt. He's got Marbury trying to be more team oriented, and that counts for something.

GM: B
We went from unwatchable to decent in a very short time. Start of last year we had nothing. Now we at least have some legit firepower and some young guys are playing and playing well in the rotation. For one year I am pretty happy with the amount of improvement. At least we arent talking about KVH's "upside" anymore. He's got a lot to work with this offseason so this B could go to a D pretty quickly, but so far good job with what he had to work with.

Ownership: C
I'm not sure recognizing Laydumb was a problem deserves real credit. Thats kinda like going to the bathroom when you have to crap, but they made a change and it was needed. They also let the new GM use $$ to get some players worth watching. But now I have to listen to Breen tell me how great everything is the Knicks do. Great.. no more Marv and now we have the Ian Eagle of MSG. Hoser.

Over all they get a C. I'm happy with the improvement and the future but I cant justify anything better then a C when you have a $105mm payroll and your 10-10.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
BRIGGS
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12/13/2004  10:53 AM
marbury A
Nazr A
Crawford C
Tim Thomas F
Kurt Thomas B
Trevor Ariza B-
Mike Sweetney B-
Jerome Williams B-
Penny C
back up PG position D
Baker D
IR squad D

Coaching B-

Team C+
RIP Crushalot😞
20 game report card

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