http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=neel/041208

They have no Amare, no Shaq... Their 3 guys in the paint are Reggie Evans, Danny Fortson and Jerome James. They dont have one guy on the perimeter thats a tough defender, they dont have great shot blockers or intimidators in the paint.

What they do have is a bunch of guys willing to play hard on defense and commit to keeping their man in front of them.

To me this is the difference between Ray Allen and Marbury. I'm getting tired of Moochie subbing for Marbury because his defense is better. What an insult! And yet, Moochie's been having an impact, especially on D.

I think you will even be suprised when Houston comes back. He's another guy thats not a good defender, but at least he plays hard there. Probably an effect of being with JVG for so long. Hopefully the Chaney/Layden era didnt brainwash him of it.

Its one thing to be slow on rotations or not bring help quick enough... these are things that come with time and playing together. Every team with new guys and young players struggles with those things. But our guys dont play hard on D away from the ball. They are constantly losing their man and giving up open shots. They DONT fight over screens.

I feel like Lenny is doing what he can. The message to Craw and Marbury has been pretty clear: stink on D and Moochie's in the game. Same thing for TT and Nazr... stink and Ariza and JYD are getting your minutes. So far Nazr has responder big time and you cant ask for more from him. He could actually win most improved player award because he's heading for a 14/11 season.

Now I will say Seattle won 37 games last year, and patience and sticking with a system has a lot to do with their success... but its a little scary when your team leader only plays on one side of the court.

The Sonics have shocked me so far but I still don't expect them to keep this up. I agree that Marbury's defense has been disappointing.

no way.. they beat the Spurs last night IN San Antonio. Trust me... people are taking them seriously. What they do is play hard on both ends, and they have some good size at the 3. They also have a ton of shooters, but it all starts with playing hard on D. They lose the battle on the glass but they contest shots. Are they really that much better then the Knicks? Is Ray that much better than Marbs? Are James, Fortson and Evens that much better than Nazr, KT, JYD and Sweetney? Obviously their 3's give them a ton, where as TT gives us nada.. but it all starts with work on the D... you get my point.

can this be attributed to the coach's demeanor? it seems like with nate and van gundy, you see two coaches that demand alot and are pretty vocal and show physical expressions. when you see lenny, it's more like, "hey, i tell them what to do and they won't do it. they're adults, i'll just sub them out and hope they learn."

i think lenny is doing a good job but it seems to me that the teams who's talents are far inferior to the type of scrappy defense they play usually have coaches that are more physical and vocal in their communicating styles. i'm not knocking lenny, i just think that his style may not get alot out of these specific players defensively (purely the players fault).

i mean our players don't know how to play d and aren't really trying hard to play it. maybe we should go into more zone b/c man to man, we're getting hurt - especially, like you said, away from the ball.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 12/09/2004 12:03:21]

Posted by djsunyc:

can this be attributed to the coach's demeanor? it seems like with nate and van gundy, you see two coaches that demand alot and are pretty vocal and show physical expressions. when you see lenny, it's more like, "hey, i tell them what to do and they won't do it. they're adults, i'll just sub them out and hope they learn."

i think lenny is doing a good job but it seems to me that the teams who's talents are far inferior to the type of scrappy defense they play usually have coaches that are more physical and vocal in their communicating styles. i'm not knocking lenny, i just think that his style may not get alot out of these specific players defensively (purely the players fault).

i mean our players don't know how to play d and aren't really trying hard to play it. maybe we should go into more zone b/c man to man, we're getting hurt - especially, like you said, away from the ball.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 12/09/2004 12:03:21]

Djsunyc, I think you hit it right on point. A coaches demeanor is why our players aren't putting out the effort. Remember when Zeke went on that tirade when we stunk against(i believe) the rockets at home.

The players responded to that for a game or two. Just think if we had a butt kicker of a coach here. To me Zeke wants so much control that he's hurting the team in giving them what they need.

Zeke is so strong headed that he couldn't hire a coach who's personality is just like his, fearing they would butt heads so he gave us Mr Softee (Lenny you better do what I say) Wilkens.

[Edited by - playa2 on 12/09/2004 12:17:11]

can this be attributed to the coach's demeanor?

A couple of things... first be fair. What was the coach's demeanor when they won 37 games last year and guys like Vlad and Rashard and even Ray were regarded as ultra soft? Sometimes it really does take time, even a whole year.

I like what Lenny has done. Just because he's not screaming doesnt mean he's not furious about the lack of defensive effort. Has anyone noticed how hard Moochie has played the last couple of games, and has anyone noticed he subs immediately after Crawford or Marbury gives up an easy bucket?

Same with Ariza subbing for TT. I'm not sure what else Lenny can do to send a clearer message.

Playa.. I dont think Sweetney looks soft. Its clear he isnt comfortable enough yet on D. He helps slow and gets caught out of position. It will improve with time. One nice stat is he's 7th on the team in minutes but 2nd in FT attempts.

Posted by fishmike:

can this be attributed to the coach's demeanor?

A couple of things... first be fair. What was the coach's demeanor when they won 37 games last year and guys like Vlad and Rashard and even Ray were regarded as ultra soft? Sometimes it really does take time, even a whole year.

I like what Lenny has done. Just because he's not screaming doesnt mean he's not furious about the lack of defensive effort. Has anyone noticed how hard Moochie has played the last couple of games, and has anyone noticed he subs immediately after Crawford or Marbury gives up an easy bucket?

Same with Ariza subbing for TT. I'm not sure what else Lenny can do to send a clearer message.

Playa.. I dont think Sweetney looks soft. Its clear he isnt comfortable enough yet on D. He helps slow and gets caught out of position. It will improve with time. One nice stat is he's 7th on the team in minutes but 2nd in FT attempts.

Fish I really think the addition of Fortson an enforcer type has really given Seattle an identity.

How many flagrants has he gotten so far? Teams know when they play the sonics NOW they are in for a dog fight.

McMillian also was a fiesty guy when he played= no nonsense coach

Sweetney just doesn't do it for me yet, Until we get a center he may never be comfortable. He's 2nd in FT attempts only because WE HAVE NO LOW POST THREAT.

Posted by fishmike:

can this be attributed to the coach's demeanor?

A couple of things... first be fair. What was the coach's demeanor when they won 37 games last year and guys like Vlad and Rashard and even Ray were regarded as ultra soft? Sometimes it really does take time, even a whole year.

I like what Lenny has done. Just because he's not screaming doesnt mean he's not furious about the lack of defensive effort. Has anyone noticed how hard Moochie has played the last couple of games, and has anyone noticed he subs immediately after Crawford or Marbury gives up an easy bucket?

Same with Ariza subbing for TT. I'm not sure what else Lenny can do to send a clearer message.

Playa.. I dont think Sweetney looks soft. Its clear he isnt comfortable enough yet on D. He helps slow and gets caught out of position. It will improve with time. One nice stat is he's 7th on the team in minutes but 2nd in FT attempts.

i agree to an extent. it's like what skiles is going through now, his team is doo doo and he's one of those get in your face type of guys. now, over time, maybe the bulls will get better as well. but when you look at the really good defensive teams out there:

detroit (brown is in your face even tho he's soft spoken in interviews)
miami
houston
san antonio
and now seattle

it's tough to say. just an observation with the way teams play defense and the way the coaches physically act on the sidelines.

i like lenny and i like what he's done. i like how he takes people out who don't play defense but so far, only one player has really responded and that's nazr. maybe the others will follow suit as well.

since we pretty much have awful defenders, it may take an in your face coach to play better or it may just take time. maybe it's just the personel. i really don't know.

Posted by MS:

Number one Lenny had a team that was filled with guys that really take pride in defense and were some of the better defenders in the league

JYD was younger and played D, OAK prides himself on D, Davis was a good defender, and childs was one of the better on ball defenders in the league, Clarke also protected the goal

In Atlanta he had Mookie and Mutumbo, two players that were very good defenders, DEKE back then used to change 15 shots a game, the knicks don't have that

exactly.. so why when these guys (who have never been good defenders) dont play good D do we worry that Wilkins isnt pushing them hard enough? I dont think Lenny is asking TT be be Artest, but he is asking Marb and Craw to play as hard as Moochie does on D when he comes in.

Posted by playa2:

This is where we can fault zeke, because he knows about how important defense is with playing with the bad boys in Detroit.

In all his pickups and trades he only got 1 VETERAN defender in JYD.

So do we credit zeke for finding someone with the skills to be a very good defender with the 43rd pick of last summer's draft?

this is the kind of momentum that can carry you throughout the season. it's almost impossible for them to not make the playoffs with this hot start. everyone's confidence is high and everyone's level of play is high. good for them. i think ray allen is going to get that max deal after all.