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Knicks hold slippery grip on division
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Mac
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12/8/2004  1:51 PM
Charley Rosen / Special to FOXSports.com
Posted: 8 hours ago


New Yorkers like to think of themselves as being tough enough.

And when it comes to pro hoops, they swear that they're more rabid, cynical, and knowledgeable than thou. In truth, Big Applers are soft and sentimental where their Knicks are concerned.

Forget about the Russellian Celtics, the Magical Lakers, and the Chicago Jordanaires — according to Noo Yawkiz the "Old Knicks" were the best NBA teams that ever there was. Earl the Pearl, Clyde, The Captain, Snazzy Cazzie, Dave the Rave and Dean the Dream, Head & Shoulders, Fall-Back-Baby, Luke and DaBush. Those guys comprised the smartest teams of all-time, and by association, the hard-core Knicks fans are likewise the smartest fans in the history of the New World.

The Knick fans' blind bathos even embraces infamous dim bulbs such as Patrick Ewing (a choke artist embraced as a "warrior"), John Starks (another choker who's mostly celebrated for dunking over MJ in a playoff game), and Larry Johnson (a blow-hard deluxe). The latest object of the Madison Square Garden regulars' gushing affection is Stephon Marbury, who (like coach Lenny Wilkens) is home-grown.

The beloved Knicks are currently 8-8, yet maintain a slippery grip on first place in the Atlantic Division. Not to worry, though. All these guys need is time to get their act together. Wait till Jamal Crawford gets used to potato knishes and chocolate egg creams. Wait till Allan Houston is ready to go. Wait till Tim Thomas puts two good games back-to-back. Wait till Steph learns how to play the point like Lenny did. Wait till the Knicks trade for another savior — Vince Carter or Eddie Curry or Shareef Abdur-Rahim. Wait till Isiah Thomas locates Keon Clark. Wait till Phil Jackson returns to his old stomping grounds. Wait till ...

Until then, exactly what is the Knicks' destiny? Are they a legitimate threat to win their division? Or are the hearts of their soft, sweet fans doomed to be broken once again?

On Tuesday, the Knicks ventured into Memphis to do battle with the Grizzlies. The home team was especially dangerous because all the players were geared up to play their butts off and thereby impress their brand-new coach, Mike Fratello. Minutes were at stake, and the Grizzlies' were eager to prove their talents and their understanding of Little Mikey's game plan.

A valid test to gauge the status of the Knicks' hearts and minds.

Offense
The Knicks' offense was just plain ugly. Marbury seemed determined to prove that he was a real point guard, so he passed up virtually every scoring opportunity and concentrated on distributing the ball (he finished 2-12 from the field, with 9 assists and 4 turnovers, and didn't register his first basket until late in the fourth quarter). So where did their offense come from?
Mostly from drives to the middle (by Marbury, and because he was in early foul trouble, his backup, Moochie Norris), and, when the defense collapsed around the ball, dishes back out to what were supposed to be wide-open shooters. Trouble was that that Grizzlies' sprightly defensive rotations caused most of those shots to be taken under extreme pressure.

The Knicks did try to stuff the ball inside — on their very first possession, Tim Thomas ran a slant cut from the foul line to the opposite box, but fumbled the incoming pass. Nazr Mohammed also took a turn in the low-post and, although he tends to dribble in place without gaining any advantage, he did manage to sink a pair of jump hooks. Otherwise, the Knicks had no inside presence at all against a Memphis team that (aside from 7-foot-2-inch, 290-pound Jake Tsakalidis, a second-string center) was all finesse and no bulk. (The Knicks tallied 28 points in the paint to the Grizzlies' 48.)

Again, due to the Grizzlies' quick-footed defense, only a handful of screen/rolls (and screen/fades for Kurt Thomas) produced acceptable shots. Indeed, for nearly the entire 1st quarter, the Knicks had no offensive continuity and the majority of their shots came about through individual moves. (The sole 1st quarter exception being a neat staggered pick and curl run for Crawford that freed him for an easy jumper.)

From the start Crawford was very shaky. His initial three touches resulted in a pair of turnovers and an air ball. In all, he forced six of his 18 shots and only bagged a total of five. That said, Crawford remains a potentially dynamic scorer who demonstrated legitimate 30-foot shooting range. Too bad he routinely settles for jacking up jumpers instead of utilizing his incredible speed to zip to the hoop. (Crawford was awarded only four free throws in 34 minutes.)

Midway through the second quarter, the Knicks finally began to execute their sets: Marbury setting a back-pick that enabled Mike Sweetney to get prime position on the right box. More choreographed slant cuts, staggered picks and curls, and even a few baseline snakes. With everybody in synch, the Knicks erased an 11-point deficit and actually led by two points for about 30 seconds. But, just as quickly, their offense turned sour.

There was 6-foot-10-inch Tim Thomas posted against 6-foot-7-inch Mike Miller, a strictly mediocre defender. Time for a power-move hoopwards, yes? Score a bucket and/or draw a foul, or at the very least force the defense to make emergency adjustments. But, no. TT settled for a fadeaway that barely grazed the rim.

There was Crawford firing away from beyond the pale — hitting a few, missing most, and playing as though he was being paid by the shot.

There was Marbury passing up short jumpers.

There was the entire team driving to the ring with a noticeable lack of passion-and allowing the Grizzlies to block a total of 14 shots.

For the game, the Knicks shot 34.1 percent from the field.


Defense
On the other hand, the Knicks' defense was (and is) beyond ugly. For the season, the Knicks rank last in 3-point percentage allowed — 38.1 percent. And 29th in overall field goal efficiency by opponents — 47.4 percent.
Against Memphis, Mohammad, Marbury and Crawford repeatedly over-committed to ball-penetration and were unable to get back to their original coverages in time to prevent wide-open looks. That's why Memphis was a rousing 8-11 from 3-point range. In addition, Marbury and Crawford were both faked off their feet by phantom shots that were at least 25-feet from the basket. Norris repeatedly failed to throw a hand at the ball when his man unloosed a shot in his vicinity. Double T's weight was so far forward that he couldn't possibly react quickly enough when his man started from a stand-still and then drove the rock to the hole.

All game long, the Knicks were tardy in transitioning from offense to defense. When Mohammed lazily trailed a Memphis fast break in the third quarter, Marbury was moved to snarl at him. The Knicks' defensive rotations were likewise late, lazy, and confused — so much so that the paint was as open to traffic as a four-lane highway at midnight.

Kurt Thomas was the only Knick defender who showed any skill and gumption. He absolutely locked up Pau Gasol throughout the second half, yielding a single bucket after Gasol had scorched the Knicks for 14 first-half points.

If ugly is only supposed to be skin deep, the Knicks' defense was ugly to the bone.

Too bad all you Knick-o-philes. The Nix are now 2-7 on the road and headed nowhere fast. But wait till Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, and Kevin Garnett become free agents ...

Charley Rosen, former CBA coach, author of 12 books about hoops, the next one being A PIVOTAL SEASON — HOW THE 1971-72 LA LAKERS CHANGED THE NBA, is a frequent contributor to FOXSports.com.
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Bonn1997
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12/8/2004  1:55 PM
Knicks hold slippery grip on division
And what teams have comfortable 1st place leads this early in the season? None! It's still better to be in 1st than to be chasing the team that is in first! jealous Charley should know that!
BRIGGS
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12/8/2004  2:03 PM
points in the paint--thats why KT has to go. He has value as a defender rebounder with the ability to hit the jumper. Hes got value in that players in his $ bracket are not as good.

It doesnt matter if Kt played good D on gasol for 1/2 they still outscored us in the paint 2-1


And Im not blaming KT, not at all. Its the FACt that we need a 4 who will SCORE in the paint! If we got Curry and moved Nazr to 4, we would be able to score MORE points in the paint--TAKE LESS outside shots--which are direct causes for long rebounds and fast break points which CAUSE opponents FG% to rise.
WE NEED TO BE ABLE to score in the PAINT more--WHICH ALSO includes the need for 1-2-3 to take it inside. This wont happen with how we are set up, because teams are likely to be willing to let TT and JC beat us.


KT is some ways is the second most valuable player, but hes not a good fit and can bring back the most value IMHO.
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BRIGGS
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12/8/2004  2:07 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Knicks hold slippery grip on division
And what teams have comfortable 1st place leads this early in the season? None! It's still better to be in 1st than to be chasing the team that is in first! jealous Charley should know that!
I dont really like acknowleding you because nalod is dead on about your character here. But I will say that I would not talk about our first place lead. We are 8-9, thats not a first place team, thats a MOCKERY of first place. All it shows is how bad expansion dilution has hurt the league.
RIP Crushalot😞
gunsnewing
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12/8/2004  2:07 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:

points in the paint--thats why KT has to go. He has value as a defender rebounder with the ability to hit the jumper. Hes got value in that players in his $ bracket are not as good.

It doesnt matter if Kt played good D on gasol for 1/2 they still outscored us in the paint 2-1


And Im not blaming KT, not at all. Its the FACt that we need a 4 who will SCORE in the paint! If we got Curry and moved Nazr to 4, we would be able to score MORE points in the paint--TAKE LESS outside shots--which are direct causes for long rebounds and fast break points which CAUSE opponents FG% to rise.
WE NEED TO BE ABLE to score in the PAINT more--WHICH ALSO includes the need for 1-2-3 to take it inside. This wont happen with how we are set up, because teams are likely to be willing to let TT and JC beat us.


KT is some ways is the second most valuable player, but hes not a good fit and can bring back the most value IMHO.

couldn't have said it any better my self. The more we wait the more KT value will go down because his shot is going to stop falling and no one wants an old PF who is only capable of putting up 11pts & 8rebs on a bad team. I hope Isiah is busy everyday lookinh for ways to make this a real team.

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 12/08/2004 14:35:17]
fishmike
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12/8/2004  2:38 PM
I dont see what the point of this article is. That he's happy the Knicks arent very good? That fans have embraced the players that have played here? Are we looking for a savior?

First place means doodoo. Heck, we may not even have home court in the first round.

Briggs I 100% agree about the points in the paint, and with the exception of Sweetney all those come from whats set up by the guard play. Still, we are much improved so I cant panic one year into it with a new GM. Isiah may like guards but he played with Mahorn, Lambier, Rodman and coached Jermaine Oneil and Brad Miller. He knows the value of bigmen and I have to assume we will grossly overpay for some next season.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Nalod
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12/8/2004  2:40 PM
Any pride over being in first with a losing record is all too "cartoon like thinking". The Kool Aid at syrup thickness.

That article has its points. I might be labled a "hater" but That assesment from the romanced 1990s teams are not that far off the mark.

We are always waiting for the next savior, the next trade, or next player to come off a 8 month DL visit.

When we gage things, we slide down to " at least its not Layden". We can and should do better than that.

Team Cablevision is about providing entertainment and viewership.

yes I am Happier than last year, and yes the team is more interesting, but there are just some things we cannot change over nite.

I can read articles like that and agree with that perspective because it makes some valid points. At the same time, I can also believe/hope that we are better than that.

We are a .500ish team. I think that is where we thought we would be. It will take a few years to get and develope more players. Miracle trades happen only if we take on a kings ransom. But we have been doing that for years and years.

.500 teams have nice times, and dissapointments. Last nite was a hard game to watch and the media will jump all over it.

Isiah has set the bar high, made some nice opportunities happen, and not all of it will fall our way. He will be critisized, but I still give him credit for making brave moves and creating interest.

The media is full of snits. They write what went wrong all the time. Some like to use others mistakes to elevate their own stature.

Thank goodness we have just one or two posters whom are like that! bad enough we have snit beat writers.


fishmike
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12/8/2004  2:43 PM
he never really said anything about hoops, just how dumb NYers are.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Nalod
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12/8/2004  2:44 PM
Posted by fishmike:

I dont see what the point of this article is. That he's happy the Knicks arent very good? That fans have embraced the players that have played here? Are we looking for a savior?

First place means doodoo. Heck, we may not even have home court in the first round.

Briggs I 100% agree about the points in the paint, and with the exception of Sweetney all those come from whats set up by the guard play. Still, we are much improved so I cant panic one year into it with a new GM. Isiah may like guards but he played with Mahorn, Lambier, Rodman and coached Jermaine Oneil and Brad Miller. He knows the value of bigmen and I have to assume we will grossly overpay for some next season.

Just my opinion of the point of the article is that Knick fans are so damaged by failure that we glorify the past, make excuses, and have misplaced hope.

To some extent, there is truth. The loudest protests of this article would be from those he addresses the strongest. Interesting.
fishmike
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12/8/2004  3:06 PM
Just my opinion of the point of the article is that Knick fans are so damaged by failure that we glorify the past, make excuses, and have misplaced hope.
I for one am certainly damaged by the failure. Sometimes watching the Knicks just makes me numb. I cant tell if we just totally suck or just need time like many other NBA teams have.

As for the past Ewing was booed more than any other "star" in NY. I remember the Ewing poster night when people crumpled them and chucked them on the court. Good thing Houston had a good game when they gave ouit his bottle heads.

As for the OLD OLD teams they *DID* win titles so I fail to see the point in knocking them.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Nalod
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12/8/2004  3:18 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Just my opinion of the point of the article is that Knick fans are so damaged by failure that we glorify the past, make excuses, and have misplaced hope.
I for one am certainly damaged by the failure. Sometimes watching the Knicks just makes me numb. I cant tell if we just totally suck or just need time like many other NBA teams have.

As for the past Ewing was booed more than any other "star" in NY. I remember the Ewing poster night when people crumpled them and chucked them on the court. Good thing Houston had a good game when they gave ouit his bottle heads.

As for the OLD OLD teams they *DID* win titles so I fail to see the point in knocking them.

The old old teams are sometimes given the title of the greatest ever. I like thinking that, but those Russel Era Celts were just that.

The Old-old team has been given the title as the smartest team ever esembled, a thinking mans team, and that just might be correct.

Im sure most fans are glorifiy the past for self comfort. Many of the younger guys here really just loved the 1990s team and grew up with them. I and many devoted fans was very frustrated by some of the same things rosen mentioned. We tend to blame charles smith, or the Miami fight, but there were many many issues with management, and some players that are loved to this day.

Bonn1997
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12/8/2004  3:40 PM
Any pride over being in first with a losing record is all too "cartoon like thinking".
I agree. (The first reply was sort of tongue in cheek.) The Knick record fluctuates above and below .500 often. I'm not obsessed with the fact that it's exactly 1 game below .500 at the moment. A couple of posters here are because I expect it will continue to fluctuate. Were we a legitimate 1st place team rather than a mockery early in the week at 8-6? If so, do we just need to win two games (including one against N.O.) to then entirely change your view of 1st place such that it's legitimate rather than a mockery? That's a pretty unstable way of viewing a team.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 12/08/2004 15:40:40]
matt
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12/8/2004  3:58 PM
"Noo Yawkiz"

Funny guy :|
fishmike
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12/8/2004  3:59 PM
Nalod, its clear there is still a lot of resentment regarding the 90s teams. We had Pat Riley, we had 300 whatever sell outs, we advanced in the playoffs every year, we had the highest ratings of ANY team including Chi and the Lakers, heck... I didnt even have cable but I watched the Knicks at least every week because they were ALWAYS on the NBA double header (Bobo Costas, Marv, Walton, etc) yet no titles, AND we played ugly beat em up basketball. I think it just pissed people off to know end.

Those were good teams, but good is about all... I dont see anyone stuck in those "glory" days.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
eViL
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12/8/2004  4:27 PM
The only thing I can romanticize about the 90's team is their defense and hustle. They were a very good team that I was happy to watch. They alway had a chance, right? They always fought hard, right? They were considered a legit title contender. So they didn't win it all, does that mean they can't be looked back upon fondly?

No one can deny that today's team needs a little of that character.
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Knicks hold slippery grip on division

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