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Vecsey: Carter and Rose for TT and Penny?
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Ray15
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12/3/2004  2:57 PM
Posted by martin:

This is how high I am about doing this trade:

I would also do VC/Rose/Tor #1 for TT/Penny/Ariza, and I like Ariza a lot.

The D would only be mediocre, but JYD, Rose, Houston off the bench would be phenomenal.

Are we trying to become a poor version of last years mavs? Marbury, Crawford, and especially Houston and Carter are not good defenders. It's tough to package VC in another deal to get a superstar frontcourt player and I don't know if I would take on Rose and his max deal to do that.

We need to shed cap. I don't care about being under the cap but you need enough guys on the roster that make a reasonable amount to facilitate trades.

Isiah is finally rebuilding on the fly with youngsters like Sweetney and Ariza and you want to go back to the Layden days by trading youngsters for declining vets. Ariza has Tayshawn Prince written all over him. He is that role player that does all the little things for a championship team and guards the oppositions best perimeter player. A few years from now we'll have Marbs, Craw, and Ariza will be locked into the 1/2/3 the same way Billups/Rip/Prince are in Detroit. I'm confident if we are smart and look for the right deal (maybe deal 1 of the 2 expiring contracts) we can get a legit big and contend for a while.

I would rather offer KT for Tyson Chandler or Sweets straight up for Chandler.
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nykdunk
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12/3/2004  3:32 PM
A lot of current Knicks have at one time been referred to as cancers. I'll take Rose if it means we can get Vince to replace the current hole we have the SF position. Sure Vince is more of a 2 IMO, but if we are planning on using Houston at the 3, why not Vince? The thought of Marbury, Houston, Crawford, Rose, and Carter on the same team is quite tasty.
martin
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12/3/2004  3:42 PM
Posted by Ray15:
Posted by martin:

This is how high I am about doing this trade:

I would also do VC/Rose/Tor #1 for TT/Penny/Ariza, and I like Ariza a lot.

The D would only be mediocre, but JYD, Rose, Houston off the bench would be phenomenal.

Are we trying to become a poor version of last years mavs? Marbury, Crawford, and especially Houston and Carter are not good defenders. It's tough to package VC in another deal to get a superstar frontcourt player and I don't know if I would take on Rose and his max deal to do that.

We need to shed cap. I don't care about being under the cap but you need enough guys on the roster that make a reasonable amount to facilitate trades.

Isiah is finally rebuilding on the fly with youngsters like Sweetney and Ariza and you want to go back to the Layden days by trading youngsters for declining vets. Ariza has Tayshawn Prince written all over him. He is that role player that does all the little things for a championship team and guards the oppositions best perimeter player. A few years from now we'll have Marbs, Craw, and Ariza will be locked into the 1/2/3 the same way Billups/Rip/Prince are in Detroit. I'm confident if we are smart and look for the right deal (maybe deal 1 of the 2 expiring contracts) we can get a legit big and contend for a while.

I would rather offer KT for Tyson Chandler or Sweets straight up for Chandler.

In part, I agree with what you are sayings.

But VC's defense is not worse than TTs, right? So no real loss. And we all think - at least I do - that VC is dogging it. He could also easily explode for 25+ points per game and 5 rebounds. It also adds a certified option on offense when Marbury is on the bench. Remember Vince has carried a team through a playoff run (against the Knicks no less)!

Heck if Nazr benefits tremendously from Marbury and Craw, imagine what Vince could de.

Also, Vince sells tickets. And that's what his trade value is. Don't forget that. It's just not points with him.

I would add that Rose has been on bad teams since his Indiana days. He could benefit from a new team the way Artest did going from Chicago to Indiana; maybe not, but there is a possibility.
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Pike
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12/3/2004  3:43 PM
I'd help TT and Hardaway pack if we had any chance of landing Carter. Toronto would want nothing of it... even as desperate as they seem to be to get rid of a guy who is obvioulsy intent of getting out of Toronto.

By the way, Carter's performances against us shows exactly why we should at least try to get this guy (which I'm sure Zeke has been doing). He's still got it, albeit, when he wants to. That being said, people want to play here now... unlike under the dark ages of Layden... and Steph and Carter would shine under the bright lights.

Because I don't think we have what Toronto wants, I look for him to get dealt (shortly) to Portland. They can put together a deal that actually could make sense for the Raptors.
nykdunk
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12/3/2004  3:47 PM
Posted by Pike:

I'd help TT and Hardaway pack if we had any chance of landing Carter. Toronto would want nothing of it... even as desperate as they seem to be to get rid of a guy who is obvioulsy intent of getting out of Toronto.

By the way, Carter's performances against us shows exactly why we should at least try to get this guy (which I'm sure Zeke has been doing). He's still got it, albeit, when he wants to. That being said, people want to play here now... unlike under the dark ages of Layden... and Steph and Carter would shine under the bright lights.

Because I don't think we have what Toronto wants, I look for him to get dealt (shortly) to Portland. They can put together a deal that actually could make sense for the Raptors.

Great point. The question here should not be whether or not WE do this deal. The question is would Toronto do it? The answer to that has to be no. They can do better.
CTKnicksfan
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12/3/2004  4:53 PM
The only reason the NYK are even mentioned as a viable option is they are probably one of the only teams that can swallow Rose's deal (Portalnd and Dallas being the others) and probably the only one that will do it without blinking.

If they really want payroll relief, throw in Moochie and take back the injured Alvin Willams' contract. He's out for the year, but the point would be furhter finaical relief for the Raps
Pike
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12/3/2004  5:16 PM
... the main reason the Knicks are mentioned is because Vince made it clear he wanted to play in New York.
playa2
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12/3/2004  5:30 PM
Anybody who thinks Carter is going to ny without Marbury going to Toronto is a fool and needs his head examine. Toronto needs a draw and anybody that doesn't draw likw vince for them will not cut it.
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EnySpree
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12/3/2004  5:55 PM
The Knicks have lost at least 4 games because Timmy wasn't playing well enough. Vince Carter fixes that.....to be greedy and ask for Rose too would be too good to be true.

I like the 3 way trade that someone came up with where Rose goes to Philly and the Knicks get Glenn, Vince and Dalembert. To me if anybody is gonna take on Glenn Rob Dalembert is gonna have to go to.....and Philly gets Rose which I think is the best fit for that team. Philly would definately be down for it.

Still Toronto would really have to be into financial security for them to except Timmy and Penny for Rose and Vince. They are gonna need some draft picks and maybe Ariza.

Shyte, is all this worth Ariza? Well if the Knicks get Vince and Dalembert for Timmy, Penny, and Ariza.......will we really miss Ariza?

Look at it this way.....

If the Knicks can put a line-up of KT, Vince, Dalembert, Marbs, Craw.........with Houston, Big Dog, Sweetney, Nazr and JYD.....Would the Knicks miss Ariza? I would but the Knicks would be at least 15 games better if this were to happen.
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MaTT4281
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12/3/2004  6:01 PM
I just don't see why Philly would do that. Does the difference Rose will make to that cover up losing Dalembert and taking on Jalen's contract? (Atleast G Rob's is expiring.)
s3231
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12/3/2004  6:49 PM
Wow, I have to admit I'm a little surprised about the responses I'm reading. If you have an opportunity to get Vince Carter for Tim and Penny, you do it. I doubt that Vince would struggle on our roster with Stephon and Jamal in the same lineup. It is obvious that Vince is a much better player than what he has showed this season. Bringing him to NY would help him out a lot which would ultimately help us out a lot. You guys have to remember that Vince easily has more trade value than Penny and Tim, plus, in NY he would most likely up that value even more. For those that say Rose would be a cancer for us, remember that he wouldn't even get a good amount of minutes here especially with a healthy Houston. Unlike Toronto, we wouldn't need to give Rose minutes.
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Rich
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12/3/2004  6:52 PM
Posted by Pike:

... the main reason the Knicks are mentioned is because Vince made it clear he wanted to play in New York.

The main reason the Knicks arer mentioned is because they are one of the few teams that would take Carter's and Rose's horrible contracts.
jaydh
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12/7/2004  9:56 AM
ok, so with todays articles, lets revisit.

Allan Houston+Tim Thomas for VC+Rose.

First off, i dont know why toronto would want to do this one. Its a downgrade in players and all the players involved have big contracts.

Now, with that said, i'm all for it. It wont cause the logjam like everyone thought it would with penny in the deal. You'd be able to start carter at SG while using jalen&hardaway&ariza at SF. It seems NY will have to throw something else in this deal, such as money and picks, but if this is the offer, we'd be a fool not to take it.
newyorknewyork
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12/7/2004  12:59 PM
If that deal went down I would start Carter at SF. And have Marbury, Crawford, Carter, Thomas, Muhammad as my starting unit.

Carter isn't trying in Toronto right now. I believe if he were traded to NY he would play a lot harder than he is right now. He loves Zeke, and loves the direction he is going with this team. He said it himself in his own words. Which means he will play hard if he was in NY. Carter playing hard every game is a superstar. U have to take that chance. He can take it to the basket and thats what we need. TT isn't explosive enough to do so.

Eating Rose contract would hurt and so would eating Alston even though he plays excellent defense which is needed at G. Id rather take Murray than Alston.

Teams we might be able to forward Rose to would maybe be Cavs who have cap space maybe a deal of Diop-Wagner-Harris that would be over 7mil. Plus Big Zs 14mil contracts expirers after this season. Or Maybe Rose for Sprewell's ending deal. Or maybe Rose for Eddie Jones who just would be a better fit with his defensive cappabilities.
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TLover
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12/7/2004  1:16 PM
If a deal of Houston & Penny to Toronto for VC and Rose went down, we would have to take back Alvin Williams and his horrible contract.
With Alvin Williams in the deal the trade works out on the trade checker.

Now I can see Toronto making the deal, if we take Williams.
MaTT4281
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12/7/2004  2:58 PM
Posted by TLover:

If a deal of Houston & Penny to Toronto for VC and Rose went down, we would have to take back Alvin Williams and his horrible contract.
With Alvin Williams in the deal the trade works out on the trade checker.

Now I can see Toronto making the deal, if we take Williams.

NY may be known to take back bad contracts, but giving up TT and Penny's contracts for those 3 horrible ones is just too much from the standpoint.
PhilinLA
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12/7/2004  3:01 PM
I think the Knicks would take Rafer Alston as the third player.

This is starting to make a lot of sense.
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MaTT4281
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12/7/2004  3:06 PM
I really don't see Toronto adding Alston just as a throw in. There's doubt that they would even do the orignal trade, Rafer would just kill it.
PhilinLA
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12/7/2004  3:07 PM
Posted by MaTT4281:

I really don't see Toronto adding Alston just as a throw in. There's doubt that they would even do the orignal trade, Rafer would just kill it.
Rafer's deeply disgruntled in Toronto.
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MaTT4281
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12/7/2004  3:11 PM
Posted by PhilinLA:
Posted by MaTT4281:

I really don't see Toronto adding Alston just as a throw in. There's doubt that they would even do the orignal trade, Rafer would just kill it.
Rafer's deeply disgruntled in Toronto.
Oh, forgot about that whole "I might quit" incident. If that was the case, couldn't they just void the contract?
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Vecsey: Carter and Rose for TT and Penny?
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