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Vecsey: Carter and Rose for TT and Penny?
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jaydh
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12/3/2004  10:37 AM
not looking at the money side of it, its a total upgrade, and if we are trying to win and compete right now, it is worth doing. rose, who can also play the 1,2&3, is an upgrade over penny. VC would play sf and be a great upgrade over TT.
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raven
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12/3/2004  10:49 AM
Posted by jaydh:

not looking at the money side of it, its a total upgrade,

no it's not. more is not necessary better and can sometimes be too much.

that will ruin the emerging balance of our team. we need to go hunt bigs, not SF or SG.
TMS
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12/3/2004  12:30 PM
Carter, especially if he reestablishes himself, will be far more attractive at as a trading chip than TT or Penny's expiring deals.

agreed...that's why i think this deal would make sense...

who here thinks we could get a Jamaal Magloire for TT's expiring contract for example? anyone? feel free to speak up, because i know TT's contract will have such tremendous trade value next season, especially with the way he's been playing of late.
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PhilinLA
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12/3/2004  12:45 PM
I wouldn't do it, we need to save those contracts for a bigger missing piece.
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martin
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12/3/2004  12:57 PM
I do this trade.

Vince would be unstoppable next to Marb and Craw, and I think he is dogging it a bit.

Rose is a knucklehead, but much better than Penny off the bench these days. Isiah would know what he is getting into with Rose.

Here is why you trade for VC. He can be traded AGAIN, with someone like Sweets for a Big man who can actually do damage.
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TMS
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12/3/2004  1:08 PM
Vince is undoubtedly dogging it...he wants out of TOR in the worst way, & i really think he wants to come to NY, so he's not playing up to his abilities right now...i think he'd have a resurgence if he came to play in MSG.

TT is also not playing up to his abilities, but bottomline is that Vince is simply a better player...neither guy will win any "blue collar player of the year" awards anytime soon, but Vince has a star quality which would thrive here imo.

Rose is just something you would have to deal with for an extra year i guess...losing Penny would be tough since he's been such a pro's pro since he's been here, but i'd sacrifice that to get Vince, who will be a much more tradeable player & would offer a big upgrade at the SF position while he's here.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
martin
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12/3/2004  1:31 PM
This is how high I am about doing this trade:

I would also do VC/Rose/Tor #1 for TT/Penny/Ariza, and I like Ariza a lot.

The D would only be mediocre, but JYD, Rose, Houston off the bench would be phenomenal.
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Mac
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12/3/2004  1:42 PM
I would do that trade and agree with martin.
nykdunk
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12/3/2004  1:42 PM
Posted by martin:

This is how high I am about doing this trade:

I would also do VC/Rose/Tor #1 for TT/Penny/Ariza, and I like Ariza a lot.

The D would only be mediocre, but JYD, Rose, Houston off the bench would be phenomenal.

I think that's going a bit far. I don't want to lose Ariza unless a young and extremely talented big man becomes available. But the 50%Carter and Rose for Penny is a good deal, because we lose NOTHING if we lose TT!

[Edited by - nykdunk on 12/03/2004 13:43:00]
Nalod
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12/3/2004  1:43 PM
Penny has been a good "grand old Dame" now his game has gone to hell but gets a killer salary. I never liked his attidude, but I'll give him credit.

I'd have to put Jail'in in the same catagory. I would expect the same, rather than the selfish act he has pulled in his career.

The term "all ball" would be stretched. There would not be enough ball for all. I think Layden always expected other trades to go thru after he made a deal, but something always happened and one reason he got stuck with some of those idiot rosters. I would not do this until I had all the ducks in a row and landed a big. We got enough "small ball".

Vince will not take us over the top. Thus, build it right, not for the moment. Trade Kurt, get curry, develope the kids, get the 15th pick, get project center and grow him. Good centers are good trade bait, and perhaps would grow better then Curry. If none available, start grooming a tall SG (for post-h20 era). Nothing wrong with craw, but we always need 3 good guards.
diderotn
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12/3/2004  1:50 PM
Martin! It is crazy to even consider trading Ariza. This young cat can turn out to be much better than Vince with starters minutes. Besides he already can do a few things better than Vince, like Defense, rebounds, etc.

Posted by martin:

This is how high I am about doing this trade:

I would also do VC/Rose/Tor #1 for TT/Penny/Ariza, and I like Ariza a lot.

The D would only be mediocre, but JYD, Rose, Houston off the bench would be phenomenal.
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NYKBocker
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12/3/2004  1:53 PM
I would not do this trade because I don't want Rose in this team. He is a cancer with a long contract. I want IT to do this trade.

New York trades: SG Anfernee Hardaway (6.8 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 2.1 apg in 24.0 minutes)
SF Tim Thomas (8.1 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 0.6 apg in 24.1 minutes)
New York receives: SF Vince Carter (16.4 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 3.3 apg in 30.8 minutes)
Glenn Robinson (No games yet played in 2004/05)
C Samuel Dalembert (4.8 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 0.5 apg in 19.4 minutes) Change in team outlook: +6.3 ppg, +3.0 rpg, and +1.1 apg.

Toronto trades: SG Jalen Rose (15.7 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 2.3 apg in 31.1 minutes)
SF Vince Carter (16.4 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 3.3 apg in 30.8 minutes)

Toronto receives: SG Anfernee Hardaway (6.8 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 2.1 apg in 24.0 minutes)
SF Tim Thomas (8.1 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 0.6 apg in 24.1 minutes)
Change in team outlook: -17.2 ppg, -0.4 rpg, and -2.9 apg.

Philadelphia trades: Glenn Robinson (No games yet played in 2004/05)
C Samuel Dalembert (4.8 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 0.5 apg in 19.4 minutes)

Philadelphia receives: SG Jalen Rose (15.7 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 2.3 apg in 31.1 minutes)
Change in team outlook: +10.9 ppg, -2.6 rpg, and +1.8 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED


We get a shorter contract in Big Dog and VC to play SF. We get Dalembert.

Philly gets rid of Big Dog and gets Rose to play alongside Iverson. We might have to sweeten this deal by adding a 2nd rounder or worst case Ariza or Sweetney to get Dalembert.

Toronto gets their wish getting shorter contracts.
TMS
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12/3/2004  1:54 PM
diderot, didn't you say that you'd rather have TT than Vince a few months ago? or was that someone else...i don't get where you put these players above a proven star player...Ariza has talent, no doubt, but he's very raw & has a LONG LOOOOOOONG way to go before you can put him in the same league...man, to hear you talk you'd think Vince Carter was some scrub player or something.

[Edited by - TMS on 12/03/2004 13:55:07]
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diderotn
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12/3/2004  1:54 PM
Vince could as well be the replacement for Houston when his contract expires. We could continue to have the three guards rotation with Vince as the spotup shooter and penetrator. Can you even imagine: Marb, crawf, Vince, Sweetney, Nazr on the court together? That is a deadly lineup. Three guys that can basically score 20 points each per night, with a front court that can mainly destroy the board. That is if we can find a place for HOuston and Kurt.

Posted by Nalod:

Penny has been a good "grand old Dame" now his game has gone to hell but gets a killer salary. I never liked his attidude, but I'll give him credit.

I'd have to put Jail'in in the same catagory. I would expect the same, rather than the selfish act he has pulled in his career.

The term "all ball" would be stretched. There would not be enough ball for all. I think Layden always expected other trades to go thru after he made a deal, but something always happened and one reason he got stuck with some of those idiot rosters. I would not do this until I had all the ducks in a row and landed a big. We got enough "small ball".

Vince will not take us over the top. Thus, build it right, not for the moment. Trade Kurt, get curry, develope the kids, get the 15th pick, get project center and grow him. Good centers are good trade bait, and perhaps would grow better then Curry. If none available, start grooming a tall SG (for post-h20 era). Nothing wrong with craw, but we always need 3 good guards.
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martin
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12/3/2004  1:59 PM
Posted by Nalod:

The term "all ball" would be stretched. There would not be enough ball for all. I think Layden always expected other trades to go thru after he made a deal, but something always happened and one reason he got stuck with some of those idiot rosters. I would not do this until I had all the ducks in a row and landed a big. We got enough "small ball".

Don't agree.

Marb and Craw have both shown that they can pass the ball and are willing to give it up regularly. The team right now is screaming for TT to score more. Vince woud cure that.

Also, aquiring VC is a step closre to getting a big, with an even better chip than the expiring contracts of Penny or TT. You can always send VC on his way whenever, especially after he piles up the stats playing with a passing backcourt.
Vince will not take us over the top. Thus, build it right, not for the moment. Trade Kurt, get curry, develope the kids, get the 15th pick, get project center and grow him. Good centers are good trade bait, and perhaps would grow better then Curry. If none available, start grooming a tall SG (for post-h20 era). Nothing wrong with craw, but we always need 3 good guards.

You need 2 all-stars to get you over the top. Vince is a step in that direction.
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diderotn
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12/3/2004  2:02 PM
Martin, maybe it is because we are both Francais, but I do agree with your points.

You need 2 all-stars to get you over the top. Vince is a step in that direction.
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martin
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12/3/2004  2:02 PM
Posted by diderotn:

Martin! It is crazy to even consider trading Ariza. This young cat can turn out to be much better than Vince with starters minutes. Besides he already can do a few things better than Vince, like Defense, rebounds, etc.

Posted by martin:

This is how high I am about doing this trade:

I would also do VC/Rose/Tor #1 for TT/Penny/Ariza, and I like Ariza a lot.

The D would only be mediocre, but JYD, Rose, Houston off the bench would be phenomenal.

here is another possibility: TT and Penny are not traded and amount up to dollars coming off the cap - which is really nothing - and Ariza turns out to be nothing.

What then? With Vince, you at least you know what you are getting.
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diderotn
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12/3/2004  2:12 PM
Actually it would be good for Penny and TT to be traded to Toronto. Penny could automatically become the starting SG that they need. A guy that can actually play PG/SG/SF and can help in other leadership ways. I wouldn't want to lose Penny, but if it will take him to get Carter, I would say do it. Before the season, I didn't want to trade TT for Vince, I was hopeful that TT would pen out this season, but from what I have seen so far, I am not too happy with him. It's one thing that he is in a funk, but the fact that he doesn't do anything else on the court is unacceptable to me. I idolize MJ and good basketball, and I hate scorers. It is not enough to score the ball in my opinion. I appreciate an all around player more than I appreciate a scorrer. We already have a broken down Houston to do just that, we don't need another one. Vince is smart enough to know that if his shots are not falling to take the ball inside and collect fouls, but TT has yet to prove that he know what to do when his shots are not falling.
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fishmike
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12/3/2004  2:26 PM
The main reason I dont want Vince is he's got Rose attached to him right now, and nobody wants Rose. If I could get Vince for TT/Ariza it would be hard to pass that up. Look at the names other teams are bouncing around out there. Phili needs scoring... maybe then you can turn Vince into Glenn/Dalembert, or something like that. VC gives you a good piece for building, and make no mistake... we are building.

NO NO NO NO Jalen Rose under ANY circumstances, because VC isnt worth that.
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newyorknewyork
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12/3/2004  2:53 PM
If it doesn't happen it fine. But if Zeke pulled of TT & Penny for Carter & Rose I wouldn't be mad. The talent level is just to big of a difference.

There would be NO TEAM in the NBA that would be able to matchup with us from 1-3. 48mins for each position so multiply by 3 and thats 144mins to split between the 5players. SF Carter(30mins), Rose(25mins), SG Houston(25mins), Crawford(30mins), Marbury(30mins). Thats 140mins total with 4mins left for Ariza. Sweetney or KT will have to spend a lot of time at backup center which they do already in order to split the time between JYD & Sweetney since JYD won't get any mins at SF anymore.

The worst thing that happends is we trade Vince Carter & Rose to Portland at the trade deadline for Rahim & Stoudemire maybe also picks.

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