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Scary thought.
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NYKBocker
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11/29/2004  2:38 PM
With recent developments in Toronto, we could end up with Vince Carter and Jalen Rose for Penny and TT. Both Penny and TT has shorter contracts than these Raptors and a cost cutting move from Toronto management might be what they are looking for. Plus, they might ask for an extra player like Sweetney of Ariza. Ouch!

Rose is a cancer.

Vince is flaky and now seems to need a heart transplant.

I am hating on TT right now but Carter and Rose contract is a lot to take. Even with Vince highlight material.
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gunsnewing
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11/29/2004  2:42 PM
that would be devasting which is why Isiah wouldn't do it. It won't guarantee a championship so what's the point? that would be a layden-esque trade
TMS
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11/29/2004  3:17 PM
normally, i would make that trade w/o hesitation as the Knicks clearly are getting the superior players in Vince & Rose...

the 1 thing that would keep me from doing it, however, is that i'd rather keep the roster flexibility for the year '07/'08 when Lebron is eligible to become a qualifying offer FA...by then, Allan Houston's contract will be off the books & the Knicks could potentially make a run at him...if they have Vince on the team (whose $15 million dollar salary won't come off the books until the end of the '07/'08 year), it might destroy any chance of that happening...even if there's even a slight glimmer of hope that Lebron could be a Knick someday, I'm willing to hold onto it.
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bernard
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11/29/2004  3:27 PM
I'm hoping we can get Amare when Allen comes off the books. He is playing his ass off, and, like Lebron, will still be plenty young by the time he signs his next contract.

In any event, Rose and Half Man/Half Woman are exactly what we don't need. More offense, less defense, less heart.
diderotn
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11/29/2004  3:41 PM
wrong. If we can get a third team involve, we won't need to have Rose in N.Y. Isiah has had his problems with Rose, and there is now way that he would want to have Rose playing for him again. Penny and TT for Carter with a third team trading for Rose. Maybe the Kings or the Clips, or Miami may want to get in this deal. Miami needs a PG/SF like Rose to provide leadership and some much needed scoring. They can finally trade Eddie Jones.
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Bonn1997
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11/29/2004  4:54 PM
The Knicks won't be under the cap any time this century. The only way we're gonna get those players is if we get great trade assets. Don't worry about cap flexibility.
TMS
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11/29/2004  5:07 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

The Knicks won't be under the cap any time this century. The only way we're gonna get those players is if we get great trade assets. Don't worry about cap flexibility.

Really? So in that case I guess you would support the trade. Afterall, Vince Carter will have an expiring deal at the same time Lebron becomes a RFA.
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Bonn1997
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11/29/2004  5:16 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:

The Knicks won't be under the cap any time this century. The only way we're gonna get those players is if we get great trade assets. Don't worry about cap flexibility.

Really? So in that case I guess you would support the trade. Afterall, Vince Carter will have an expiring deal at the same time Lebron becomes a RFA.
No, I'd rather keep the contracts of Penny and TT that will expire sooner and give us better players sooner. And with the way the Knicks take back contracts, they'll have plenty of good expiring contracts when Lebron is an FA anyway.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 11/29/2004 17:16:46]
Mac
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11/29/2004  6:34 PM
If you get a chance to get J. Rose and V. Carter for TT and penny, you do it.
TMS
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11/29/2004  6:43 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:

The Knicks won't be under the cap any time this century. The only way we're gonna get those players is if we get great trade assets. Don't worry about cap flexibility.

Really? So in that case I guess you would support the trade. Afterall, Vince Carter will have an expiring deal at the same time Lebron becomes a RFA.
No, I'd rather keep the contracts of Penny and TT that will expire sooner and give us better players sooner. And with the way the Knicks take back contracts, they'll have plenty of good expiring contracts when Lebron is an FA anyway.

if you trade Penny & TT's contracts for better players sooner, don't you think those players would be on the payroll for longer as well? who do you possibly think you can get for either 1 of those guys that's better than Vince Carter anyway? i'm just curious to know your thoughtline.

btw, the mere fact that a player has an expiring contract won't mean you'll have a shot in hell of trying to trade for Lebron James...it will take a marquee type player w/an expiring contract if you want to have any hope at all of doing so...Vince could be that player quite possibly...it definitely could never be a player of Penny or TT's calibre, that's for sure, expiring contract or no.
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EnySpree
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11/29/2004  6:52 PM
Posted by Mac:

If you get a chance to get J. Rose and V. Carter for TT and penny, you do it.

Yeah you pretty much have to do it......Vince would easily take Timmy's spot........but what would you do with Houston and Rose?

Rose is gonna complain. He'll be the sixth man but he's not gonna take on Hardaway's old role. If Houston is healthy he has to play. It's gonna have to be a trade that leads to a trade......do you wanna trade a guy like Rose?

If they will do the trade you definately have to do it......Vince Carter just on ticket sales alone can attract a player the Knicks need too..........but who?

It's a tough decision. but getting Rose and Vince for Penny and Timmy makes the Knicks one of the best teams in the league if the guys aren't selfish.....wow.......it would be weird, awesome, and teeth pulling all at the same time.

Truly would be a scary thought.

[Edited by - enyspree on 11/29/2004 18:53:30]
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Knicksfan
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11/29/2004  6:57 PM
Right now, we have all what we need, we just need one little Tim to play like how he can. Even at center we are looking good this days. On the short term future, priority number one should be a defensive, very good, big center to make this team championship caliber. Who knows where will Ariza be in his improvement, maybe he will be our starting SF then. A guy like Vince isn't what this team needs for the long run. I'd prefer to wait for both contracts to become expiring contracts, see which good Center will be avaliable, and in the case that Ariza weren't ready for big time, look for a good SF that fits this team.

Ohhh my! Imagine LJ's 23 in a Knicks uniform!! That would be a great long term dream...
Knicks_Fan
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11/29/2004  7:13 PM
Posted by EnySpree:


Yeah you pretty much have to do it......Vince would easily take Timmy's spot........but what would you do with Houston and Rose?

Rose is gonna complain. He'll be the sixth man but he's not gonna take on Hardaway's old role. If Houston is healthy he has to play. It's gonna have to be a trade that leads to a trade......do you wanna trade a guy like Rose?

If they will do the trade you definately have to do it......Vince Carter just on ticket sales alone can attract a player the Knicks need too..........but who?

It's a tough decision. but getting Rose and Vince for Penny and Timmy makes the Knicks one of the best teams in the league if the guys aren't selfish.....wow.......it would be weird, awesome, and teeth pulling all at the same time.

Truly would be a scary thought.

[Edited by - enyspree on 11/29/2004 18:53:30]

I don't think that that move would make us one of the best teams in the league, even with a guy like Vince. It may improve us somewhere now, but it would hurt us in the next seasons when we try to make trades for the Bigs we will need to be a real contender. We already have enough scoring; if a deal make us extremely better than now, it has to upgrade our defense and I doubt this deal does it. The way TT has been playing he definitely has been our weakest link, but he will play better. Still, if he is the main reason to trade for Carter, then maybe the comeback of Houston, who will bring great shooting, will ease that need. We lack a great Big with great defense to become a contender, and Penny's and TT's contracts will help us get it. Don't trade them for something that will not improve you A LOT.

Im happy with the Knicks right now. They have been playing great considering that they are really still in rebuilding more- NY style, of course . They lack consistency and defense, but they are young ans still are not the team Isiah sees in his dreams. They'll get better from within untill THE TRADE, the one bringing us THE BIG, take us back to championship contention. Untill then, Im just happy to see Houston get back, to finally see him along with Marbury, and to stay away from Vince and Rose because, better things are ahead for us.
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11/29/2004  7:18 PM
Posted by Knicksfan:
Posted by EnySpree:


Yeah you pretty much have to do it......Vince would easily take Timmy's spot........but what would you do with Houston and Rose?

Rose is gonna complain. He'll be the sixth man but he's not gonna take on Hardaway's old role. If Houston is healthy he has to play. It's gonna have to be a trade that leads to a trade......do you wanna trade a guy like Rose?

If they will do the trade you definately have to do it......Vince Carter just on ticket sales alone can attract a player the Knicks need too..........but who?

It's a tough decision. but getting Rose and Vince for Penny and Timmy makes the Knicks one of the best teams in the league if the guys aren't selfish.....wow.......it would be weird, awesome, and teeth pulling all at the same time.

Truly would be a scary thought.

[Edited by - enyspree on 11/29/2004 18:53:30]

I don't think that that move would make us one of the best teams in the league, even with a guy like Vince. It may improve us somewhere now, but it would hurt us in the next seasons when we try to make trades for the Bigs we will need to be a real contender. We already have enough scoring; if a deal make us extremely better than now, it has to upgrade our defense and I doubt this deal does it. The way TT has been playing he definitely has been our weakest link, but he will play better. Still, if he is the main reason to trade for Carter, then maybe the comeback of Houston, who will bring great shooting, will ease that need. We lack a great Big with great defense to become a contender, and Penny's and TT's contracts will help us get it. Don't trade them for something that will not improve you A LOT.

Im happy with the Knicks right now. They have been playing great considering that they are really still in rebuilding more- NY style, of course . They lack consistency and defense, but they are young ans still are not the team Isiah sees in his dreams. They'll get better from within untill THE TRADE, the one bringing us THE BIG, take us back to championship contention. Untill then, Im just happy to see Houston get back, to finally see him along with Marbury, and to stay away from Vince and Rose because, better things are ahead for us.

we just have 2 wait and see until the post season... then we can make our opinions and remarks.... and improvements if necessary
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diderotn
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11/29/2004  7:31 PM
Tomorrow is not a promise. You have to do today what you can do today. LJ may not want to come to N.Y., besides, NY may not be the same attractive market 2 years from now.
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Bonn1997
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11/29/2004  7:57 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:

The Knicks won't be under the cap any time this century. The only way we're gonna get those players is if we get great trade assets. Don't worry about cap flexibility.

Really? So in that case I guess you would support the trade. Afterall, Vince Carter will have an expiring deal at the same time Lebron becomes a RFA.
No, I'd rather keep the contracts of Penny and TT that will expire sooner and give us better players sooner. And with the way the Knicks take back contracts, they'll have plenty of good expiring contracts when Lebron is an FA anyway.

if you trade Penny & TT's contracts for better players sooner, don't you think those players would be on the payroll for longer as well? who do you possibly think you can get for either 1 of those guys that's better than Vince Carter anyway? i'm just curious to know your thoughtline.

btw, the mere fact that a player has an expiring contract won't mean you'll have a shot in hell of trying to trade for Lebron James...it will take a marquee type player w/an expiring contract if you want to have any hope at all of doing so...Vince could be that player quite possibly...it definitely could never be a player of Penny or TT's calibre, that's for sure, expiring contract or no.
Isiah just needs to keep upgrading the roster, keep grabbing talented players for almost nothing before they blossom like Jamal Crawford. If the team keeps upgrading its roster and obtains expiring contracts (or large relatively short contracts), it will be in a position to do good sign and trades. With the way Vince takes care of (or doesn't take care of) his body, by the time Lebron's a free agent, Vince probably will be barely better than Penny is right now anyway. It doesn't seem reasonable to get a player who doesn't fit on this team now because you think he might get you Lebron in 3 years

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 11/29/2004 19:58:32]
tkf
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11/29/2004  9:24 PM
Jalen rose is overpaid trash, and vince is not the same player he once was IMO, even at his young age, but may I ask, what do we need with vince? I mean we have all the offense we need on the perimeter, we need a post defensive presence and guys who will defend, vince got torched by crawford and looked the least bit interested in defense, and don't tell me it is because he wants out of toronto, vince has become a selfish, one dimensional player, the raps overpaid several players to make vince happy(one we are paying for now in JYD), he didn't have to re-up his deal, but he wanted the money and obviously wanted to be in toronto, let someone else take on his primadonna ways and his pain in the azz momma!!!
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
TMS
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11/29/2004  9:31 PM
what do we need w/Vince? i don't know...what do we need w/TT for that matter? does he rebound, defend, block shots? not really...so the question shouldn't be what do we need w/Vince, but what would we be giving up to get him.
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Bonn1997
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11/29/2004  9:39 PM
Posted by TMS:

what do we need w/Vince? i don't know...what do we need w/TT for that matter? does he rebound, defend, block shots? not really...so the question shouldn't be what do we need w/Vince, but what would we be giving up to get him.
We don't need either in the long-term. Let's just keep the one with the better contract (or workout a 3 way deal where Vince goes somewhere else and we get a PF/C).
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Scary thought.
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