Knicksfan wrote:

JesseDark wrote:I'm not buying the reports that he wasn't gonna be happy in his role coming off the bench this upcoming season. I wouldn't blame himm given the year he just had, bur doesn't seem like him to be complaining.

The report wasn’t that he was complaining, just that he wasn’t happy he was going back to the bench and on a more limited playing time after the Bridges trade, which is nothing wrong. He had a career year so of course he should expect an expanded role, not the opposite.

Agree. If the season had progressed, and Bridges was logging major minutes, and DDV wasn’t playing much, I’m guessing that he would have asked to be traded. I’m guessing that the FO wouldn’t have blamed him, seeing how heavily Thibs leans on his starters. Donte was at max trade value right now, after starting, so not a bad time to move him. Remains to be seen if it was for the right player.

Glad he went out west where we don't have to face him and hope he gets a chance to continue to shine and earn his next big contract which hopefully will be 'dope' insane money!.

I loved his play and will miss him.

Panos wrote:

Knicksfan wrote:

JesseDark wrote:I'm not buying the reports that he wasn't gonna be happy in his role coming off the bench this upcoming season. I wouldn't blame himm given the year he just had, bur doesn't seem like him to be complaining.

The report wasn#t that he was complaining, just that he wasn;t happy he was going back to the bench and on a more limited playing time after the Bridges trade, which is nothing wrong. He had a career year so of course he should expect an expanded role, not the opposite.

So basically we traded 5 FRP for someone who is marginally better than DDV (maybe) which then undermined his value by making him "unhappy" as a bench player and then traded him with Randle for a wash trade (and I'm trying to be generous). So what did this 5 FRPs net us? Not as much as I'd have thought.

I would have liked to see how we did without Bridges first. My concern with the FO is that they may be starting to overthink these moves instead of seeing how things play out. They’ve earned the benefit of the doubt, so we’ll see what happens.

Knicks trade:
Julius Randle
DDV
6 FRP

Knicks receive:
KAT
Mikal Bridges

So net/net, 6 FRP upgraded 2 positions and we'll see if the upgrades are worth it.

Panos wrote:Ok Martin, here are the straight objective facts of the 2 trades and everyone can judge whether they like the result or not:

Knicks trade:
Julius Randle
DDV
6 FRP

Knicks receive:
KAT
Mikal Bridges

So net/net, 6 FRP upgraded 2 positions and we'll see if the upgrades are worth it.

Yeah that’s the oversimplified version. You are going to note for us that 2 of those FRP are the Detroit and Milwaukee picks and then 2-3 of the knicks picks will all probably be late first rounders, right? And that Randle’s contract situation is sticky and would possibly hamstring the team of any trades if he wanted max? And then pile on the Apron rules because you are ignoring very delicate salary cap management? It’s not straightforward.

The Knicks signed DDV with MLE and Randle for cap space. They also traded back from #11 to 13 in 2022 while gaining 3 FRP’s and cap space for Brunson.

So I’d like to take the same simplified tack as you and reword it and expand it a bit. It’s obtusely and purposely phrased.

Knicks trade:
- Free Cap space sign and trade
- Free MLE space sign and trade
- 4 unprotected FRP Knicks picks, 3 of which most likely will be in the #25 range in 2025, 2027, and 2029 (all the main Knicks players will be ~31yo in 2029). 2031 may be the pick of value. Debatable but very likely.
- Moved back from 11 to 13 for the other 2 FRP and cap space for Brunson.
- Grimes.

Knicks receive:
KAT
Mikal Bridges
Ability to sign Brunson

Here is what had listed in another thread: https://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=66521&page=2

Let me know your feedback.

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:Back the queistion: "Why did Leon Trade for Mikal": To give knicks an upgrade of talent, elite perimeter defender to ease the load on both OG an JB, and the abilty to slide OG to the 4 if desired or need be. We insulate ourselves a bit more from injury and if Randle should leave without any compensation we are not awfully screwed. It puts Randle on notice that if he wants to be paid, then we can accommodate him via trade, and the team has limitations to what can and connot be done.

WHile about every team has its issues knicks seem to be drama free and transparent with its players. I like that IG and RJ were put into good situations.

We are not perfect, Isiah overshot his salary with a surge of good play.

Yes to all of this and thanks. I know I ask repeatedly stupid questions, that's on me. I have zero insight into any of this and I'd bet someone else's farm on a lot of it

My thought: Leon does not do this all-in level trade before he has Brunson's contract nailed down and has a very firm understanding of exactly how flexible Mikal and his agent will be and what their years and total amount for those years will be. He will not "tamper" but Leon will already *know* and per-arrange the Mikal contract before his Brooklyn offer is made. Before it is a trade with Brooklyn, it is a negotiation with both Brunson and Mikal, cause that's when Leon has the leverage. "Jalen, if you could extend at this number and Mikal is kinda sorta OK at this number extension, my FO will make an unprecedented offer to Brooklyn that they will not refuse". It's a quick FaceTime call cause Leon don't got the Insta but his daughter does so she could help out. Not a long call cause Brunson couldn't be happier to bro it out with the Nova boys; Archie gets added to the playoff roster if there is a spot and 4 other backup C's are well established, it's a conditional ask.

If if if Mikal is on the discount train, or in the very least it is a known known and can go up or down, Leon gains both flexibility and (more) leverage in the Randle negotiation. Does he need it or would he use it? Maybe not, but the peer pressure is now real, and Randle will know his option of not being the faith'iest of good faith negotiators can mean he will be on another team, soon.

NY has managed its cap better than any non rookie contract teams like OKC, Houston that are playoff bound; that's a debatable statement but I don't think it's far off. Give or take, every other legit playoff team in NBA (and I'm being a hint generous here) has at least 1 player that will make at least $40M on their books starting this year, except the Knicks (OG makes $39.5 in 2025-26), Cleveland (2 in 2025), Memphis, NOP, Orlando, Toronto. Depending on what Randle does, Knicks will mostly likely not have one salary over $40M until 2026-27 season. I don't know what the TV numbers will be, but Knicks would easily have very good flexibility for a long time. Brock happy.

You don't gain that level of salary cap management without Brunson. Maybe Jalen is just individually generous and that could very well be, but I'd bet it was more like he turned extra generous when he knew the trade was going to be for Mikal versus almost anyone else in the league who could have fit a Bojan Bogdanović sized swap of this type.

A side effect of Mikal is maybe Shamet and Cam Payne? You could argue they would have come independently? Perhaps.

In a typical all-in trade, you go all the picks and a deadweight contracts (or cap space) for, let's say, young player at $35-50M per? For hypotheticals, that's the baseline.

In this trade, you get:

- Mikal
- Mikal discounted at his output value of $~35-40M for 2 years, so a potential extra cap flexibility of up to $20m per. This one is very debatable depending on how you view player, but at $24M per for 2 more years, that's one of the better bargains out there for an elite 2-way player with a track record of 82 games a year.
- You get the Brunson extension done (likely)
- You get Mikal's extension done with (probable)
- You get added leverage with Randle negotiations
- You position yourself with apron flexibility for 2-4 years depending on Randle/Mitch, this means you are a deep playoff team that can still do non-apron trades (soon). I don't begin to understand all of this but Knicks have a lot of certainty on their cap and with potential trades.
- Certainty of depth is an obvious tag along for this.
- Positionally, you gain more OG minutes at other spots like PF, C for unique circumstances without losing a top line wing defender. Attached to this is more certainty of small ball lineups that make sense.
- One of DDV or McBride becomes, unfortunately, easily moveable. It'll be 99.9% McBride. Mikal would fill the defensive assignment of the quick PG or small guards OG had trouble with and McBride could cover.
- Instant chemistry without the lockerroom worries. The chemistry could very well be a multiplier cause of this unique type of circumstance. This particular player comes with finals and deep playoffs experience. Let's be content he kinda sorta had a down year and also had a lead role he practiced at for a year?
- A by product of this is Shamet and Cam. Most likely negligible.

I think a lot of those are uniquely gained versus a different player.

Look at the Embiid numbers and he is in the range of Brunson's basketball value to his team. That's an extra player on the roster in the $20M range. So Josh Hart or almost Mikal, for 4+ years, along with trade flexibility and depth. Yowza

         24-25 25-26  27   28    29
Brunson: $25m, $35m, $38m, $40m, $43m
Embiid   $51m, $55m, $60m, $64m, $69m

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://www.twitter.com/YossiGozlan/status/1837105900789575944

martin wrote:

Panos wrote:Ok Martin, here are the straight objective facts of the 2 trades and everyone can judge whether they like the result or not:

Knicks trade:
Julius Randle
DDV
6 FRP

Knicks receive:
KAT
Mikal Bridges

So net/net, 6 FRP upgraded 2 positions and we'll see if the upgrades are worth it.

Yeah that;s the oversimplified version. You are going to note for us that 2 of those FRP are the Detroit and Milwaukee picks and then 2-3 of the knicks picks will all probably be late first rounders, right? And that Randle;s contract situation is sticky and would possibly hamstring the team of any trades if he wanted max? And then pile on the Apron rules because you are ignoring very delicate salary cap management? It;s not straightforward.

The Knicks signed DDV with MLE and Randle for cap space. They also traded back from #11 to 13 in 2022 while gaining 3 FRP;s and cap space for Brunson.

So I;d like to take the same simplified tack as you and reword it and expand it a bit. It;s obtusely and purposely phrased.

Knicks trade:
- Free Cap space sign and trade
- Free MLE space sign and trade
- 4 unprotected FRP Knicks picks, 3 of which most likely will be in the #25 range in 2025, 2027, and 2029 (all the main Knicks players will be ~31yo in 2029). 2031 may be the pick of value. Debatable but very likely.
- Moved back from 11 to 13 for the other 2 FRP and cap space for Brunson.
- Grimes.

Knicks receive:
KAT
Mikal Bridges
Ability to sign Brunson

Here is what had listed in another thread: https://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=66521&page=2

Let me know your feedback.

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:Back the queistion: "Why did Leon Trade for Mikal": To give knicks an upgrade of talent, elite perimeter defender to ease the load on both OG an JB, and the abilty to slide OG to the 4 if desired or need be. We insulate ourselves a bit more from injury and if Randle should leave without any compensation we are not awfully screwed. It puts Randle on notice that if he wants to be paid, then we can accommodate him via trade, and the team has limitations to what can and connot be done.

WHile about every team has its issues knicks seem to be drama free and transparent with its players. I like that IG and RJ were put into good situations.

We are not perfect, Isiah overshot his salary with a surge of good play.

Yes to all of this and thanks. I know I ask repeatedly stupid questions, that's on me. I have zero insight into any of this and I'd bet someone else's farm on a lot of it

My thought: Leon does not do this all-in level trade before he has Brunson's contract nailed down and has a very firm understanding of exactly how flexible Mikal and his agent will be and what their years and total amount for those years will be. He will not "tamper" but Leon will already *know* and per-arrange the Mikal contract before his Brooklyn offer is made. Before it is a trade with Brooklyn, it is a negotiation with both Brunson and Mikal, cause that's when Leon has the leverage. "Jalen, if you could extend at this number and Mikal is kinda sorta OK at this number extension, my FO will make an unprecedented offer to Brooklyn that they will not refuse;. It's a quick FaceTime call cause Leon don't got the Insta but his daughter does so she could help out. Not a long call cause Brunson couldn't be happier to bro it out with the Nova boys; Archie gets added to the playoff roster if there is a spot and 4 other backup C's are well established, it's a conditional ask.

If if if Mikal is on the discount train, or in the very least it is a known known and can go up or down, Leon gains both flexibility and (more) leverage in the Randle negotiation. Does he need it or would he use it? Maybe not, but the peer pressure is now real, and Randle will know his option of not being the faith'iest of good faith negotiators can mean he will be on another team, soon.

NY has managed its cap better than any non rookie contract teams like OKC, Houston that are playoff bound; that's a debatable statement but I don't think it's far off. Give or take, every other legit playoff team in NBA (and I'm being a hint generous here) has at least 1 player that will make at least $40M on their books starting this year, except the Knicks (OG makes $39.5 in 2025-26), Cleveland (2 in 2025), Memphis, NOP, Orlando, Toronto. Depending on what Randle does, Knicks will mostly likely not have one salary over $40M until 2026-27 season. I don't know what the TV numbers will be, but Knicks would easily have very good flexibility for a long time. Brock happy.

You don't gain that level of salary cap management without Brunson. Maybe Jalen is just individually generous and that could very well be, but I'd bet it was more like he turned extra generous when he knew the trade was going to be for Mikal versus almost anyone else in the league who could have fit a Bojan Bogdanovic; sized swap of this type.

A side effect of Mikal is maybe Shamet and Cam Payne? You could argue they would have come independently? Perhaps.

In a typical all-in trade, you go all the picks and a deadweight contracts (or cap space) for, let's say, young player at $35-50M per? For hypotheticals, that's the baseline.

In this trade, you get:

- Mikal
- Mikal discounted at his output value of $~35-40M for 2 years, so a potential extra cap flexibility of up to $20m per. This one is very debatable depending on how you view player, but at $24M per for 2 more years, that's one of the better bargains out there for an elite 2-way player with a track record of 82 games a year.
- You get the Brunson extension done (likely)
- You get Mikal's extension done with (probable)
- You get added leverage with Randle negotiations
- You position yourself with apron flexibility for 2-4 years depending on Randle/Mitch, this means you are a deep playoff team that can still do non-apron trades (soon). I don't begin to understand all of this but Knicks have a lot of certainty on their cap and with potential trades.
- Certainty of depth is an obvious tag along for this.
- Positionally, you gain more OG minutes at other spots like PF, C for unique circumstances without losing a top line wing defender. Attached to this is more certainty of small ball lineups that make sense.
- One of DDV or McBride becomes, unfortunately, easily moveable. It'll be 99.9% McBride. Mikal would fill the defensive assignment of the quick PG or small guards OG had trouble with and McBride could cover.
- Instant chemistry without the lockerroom worries. The chemistry could very well be a multiplier cause of this unique type of circumstance. This particular player comes with finals and deep playoffs experience. Let's be content he kinda sorta had a down year and also had a lead role he practiced at for a year?
- A by product of this is Shamet and Cam. Most likely negligible.

I think a lot of those are uniquely gained versus a different player.

Look at the Embiid numbers and he is in the range of Brunson's basketball value to his team. That's an extra player on the roster in the $20M range. So Josh Hart or almost Mikal, for 4+ years, along with trade flexibility and depth. Yowza

         24-25 25-26  27   28    29
Brunson: $25m, $35m, $38m, $40m, $43m
Embiid   $51m, $55m, $60m, $64m, $69m

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://www.twitter.com/YossiGozlan/status/1837105900789575944

Nice work, martin. While you're being hyperbolic, why not go back to Ewing for Glen Rice/Luc Longley.

So Randle's contract situation would be sticky? More so than paying KAT $50-60 million over the next 3 years?
In your quote from the other thread you talk about avoiding the second apron. I don't see how that's going to be possible at this point.

Panos wrote:Nice work, martin. While you're being hyperbolic, why not go back to Ewing for Glen Rice/Luc Longley.

So Randle's contract situation would be sticky? More so than paying KAT $50-60 million over the next 3 years?
In your quote from the other thread you talk about avoiding the second apron. I don't see how that's going to be possible at this point.

I can tell you didn’t really take in much information.

Second apron was mentioned because the Knicks needed to make one more big move without Randle mucking stuff up. And they just did that and succeeded, they moved quick. They met that goal. KAT was the other all-in trade.

Knicks pulled off 2 in a month’s time period.

Now that they got all their core pieces, they don’t care too much about the second apron, they just need to finesse minor parts not the bigger moves. Just like Boston.

And the Knicks can still do more with Mitch.

They met their goals.