Nalod wrote:

martin wrote:My thought is that there is a lot of loyalty between both Randle and the Knicks organization, from Dolan and Leon both and from Randle to them back. Dolan will be there to look Randle in the eye on this one, he is a dork but this is all he has to do. Everyone at the table - Randle, Randle's agent, Leon, Dolan, Brock - all want the same thing: for Randle to stay at the contract amount that he feels comfortable with and with what Knicks and Brock Aller will lay out in full, transparent detail right to Randle and his agent about the Knicks sustained path to championship level team, players, salary situation. Those details will include how much Jalen helped the Knicks cap situations - and they will frame it in terms of helping everyone get to a championship, not how much $ sacrifice any player is taking even though everyone understands exactly those numbers, they will show them and be transparent - and how much they *hope* (but really already know cause that was mostly likely worked out before the picks were offered) Mikal's extension will help the Knicks re-invest back into their team to get the rings.

They will show Randle exactly how his *Knicks* max contract will fit in year by year. It will be generous but exactly fit into a very specific slot in the Knicks Jalen pecking order of things. They will profusely thank him for taking a chance on Knicks and giving them that glorious 2020 season and remind him how much they supported him when his troubles started, they did not waiver on that at all. Zero. Randle will nod Yes to that.

They will ask Randle to be transparent back to them and ask Randle if he and team would really want a max-max above what they are showing him, please kindly list 2 or 3 teams you would like to land on and we will do our best to get you there AND we will make sure to set those contract expectation terms for you with them because that's how Leon does business. You know that we know that we have done this for our guys and we will for you too. He and Dolan may dap, they both know the emotional struggles. Bro hugs if the tears show up.

And then I'd watch what Dallas and then New Orleans does if this juncture comes to pass.

Nalod wrote:Is there a thought in the knicks organization and with Randles camp that he is going to get traded. If so then the hypotheticals are ok to discuss. I can see this as a possibility.

Im wondering if Minny is waiting until its ownership arbitration is complete before it would make a massive trade like moving KAT.
I don't see how the money works for us if thats Leons move but Randle on Minny makes sense. They have Reid when they want to go big. Randle is a more flexible greater then KAT. A lot of pieces have to get shifted by both teams to make this happen and I don't see the numbers nor do I see Mitch and Randle moved for KAT. Can't Fathom DDV and Randle both being moved either.
Poses the question: Objectively, if DDV and randle is the price and Thibs says that gets us to the finals, do you do it? Not easy for this fan to promote that. Seems sacrilege but its why Leon gets the big bucks.

The Nick Richards/MIles Bridges for Randle seems easy and logical for both teams. Obviously there are many reasons to like or hate that also.

Perhaps it all comes down mid season when players can get moved and we have evaluated Simms, Huk, and others for that matter. Im sure we have offers for Kessler others but all teams have things to figure out also. Trades have to have mutual benefits.

First 20 games will tell a lot!

Not unreasonable and Suspect thats how it plays out.
At the same time its a business and his time here may have served its purpose and now time to move on. Could be mutual. We need a 5. Did we need Mikal? Not really. Want vs. Need. Mitch's fragility makes us vulnerable.

Randle moving on is not based on a contentious scenario. Not like they are negotiating and Leon asks with some nefarious tone "So, Jules, how old is that son of yours now? Bet you really proud of him? Right? So he what, home playing video games and your wife, cleaning up dinner, while you here with us, right? Don't worry, we have a very responsible colleague there who won't interfere unless we tell him, so, lets get back to the numbers, right? we finish here, you go home, get some sleep, make another kids, what ever, its all good, unless of course reciprocity is not felt, right? It gets cold in Minnesota!"

I am not of this opinion, regarding the response of "Not really" to "Did we need Mikal?".

"Did we need Mikal?" is a good question and I don't think there is a straight forward answer on this but I don't think that "Not really" is close to it either and my sense is that it's further to the other end of the spectrum of things IMHO.

The Knicks absolutely needed to upgrade their roster, there is no question on that. So why isn't the Mikal acquisition looked at differently? We absolutely needed to upgrade talent on the roster and the roster talent was upgraded. We added an elite, proven 2-way talent who over the past 3 seasons averages 18ppg and has been in consideration for DPOY and been to the finals and never misses games AND whose salary is about $20M under his current production for the next 2 years. So why is the starting point of your response, Not really? Just because he is not specifically a center? Candidly, that's a very narrow view on upgrading a roster and one that only puts the thinking at exactly a tic tack toe one-step level of maneuver, not even checkers.

I am taking a different perspective on this. Leon and team absolutely thought Mikal was necessary and they are much much smarter than me and you on this topic. So why did they take that route and why was their answer to that very question dramatically different than yours?

Leon and team also did not think that trading for Mikal was an overpay. I know that many people have made that suggestion. The more I think on it, the more I agree, it was not a classic overpay. Why? Why is anyone's answer to the overpay question different than Leon's when we know that Leon is much better at this than any of us?

martin wrote:Besides the player Mikal, what did Leon get out of this trade? Cause it was a lot more than just his stats.

My point was Mikal, like OG are quality pieces that are beyond first glance stats.

We all giddy with thoughts of Josh, Mikal and OG doing the clamp down and the fast break opportunities that come with creating turnovers!!!
Just wipe the smirk off Haliburtons face 4x this regular season!!!!

Panos wrote:The reason why I agreed with the bolded in the OP was that we have DDV who was a quality starter and not a weak point in our SL and is now relegated to the bench, where I think he is no longer really a bench player. I'm hoping he is cool with it, and the chemistry allows him to thrive and we have 2 6MOY contenders in DDV and Hart. But my gut is that with Mikal in and Randle back, DDV and Hart will be griping about minutes.

So then DDV is a tradeable asset. Win win

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:

martin wrote:Besides the player Mikal, what did Leon get out of this trade? Cause it was a lot more than just his stats.

My point was Mikal, like OG are quality pieces that are beyond first glance stats.

We agree here, you see that, right? That accounts for all the smiles, hugs and NovaKick love that SHOULD be present.

We all giddy with thoughts of Josh, Mikal and OG doing the clamp down and the fast break opportunities that come with creating turnovers!!!
Just wipe the smirk off Haliburtons face 4x this regular season!!!!

I have not, that's why I keep asking the same questions

If im not clear, well perhaps we can keep trying.
And yes, I understand my language was not as clear as it could have been.

To be clear, having Bridges and Anunoby on the wings is part of my dream lineup and were well before they became Knicks. I am bouncing in my chair on this. They are absolutely elite players that don't command the same attention as Jordan Poole or Anfernee Simons because they do all the little stuff that teams need to win, while Simons and Poole show up in the box scores for their 22 points a game for a starring role on a losing team on some of the least efficient shooting you will see.

Any team other than Boston could plug either or both of these guys into their starting lineup and improve their Net Rating over whatever it is that they currently have. Elite 3&D hustle players. Boston might do better with one of these over Jaylen Brown. Debatable. They are the gold standard of today's game.

We all saw what OG did on a Net Rating basis. Bridges is similarly situated.

There is not a single Center that we could obtain that would have the same impact as Bridges.

1) Leon Rose had to know that there was no Paul George trade coming to NY. CAA client.
2) Probably also knew that George was going to end up in Philly. Everyone knew.
3) Leon had to know that meant Embiid was not going to request a trade.
4) Other than Embiid or Jokic, I cannot name another player that would improve this roster over what we have.

Pivot to Mikal who fits on every level. Did we pay a lot? Yeah, but I'd bet that we kept the most valuable of our picks in the WAS and DET picks. We will see.

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:

martin wrote:Besides the player Mikal, what did Leon get out of this trade? Cause it was a lot more than just his stats.

My point was Mikal, like OG are quality pieces that are beyond first glance stats.

We agree here, you see that, right? That accounts for all the smiles, hugs and NovaKick love that SHOULD be present.

We all giddy with thoughts of Josh, Mikal and OG doing the clamp down and the fast break opportunities that come with creating turnovers!!!
Just wipe the smirk off Haliburtons face 4x this regular season!!!!

I have not, that's why I keep asking the same questions

If your insinuating we got chemistry. That remains to be seen.
If your insinuation we got Chemistry, yes, "My point was Mikal, like OG are quality pieces that are beyond first glance stats." AKA, the intangibles.

If im not clear, well perhaps we can keep trying.
And yes, I understand my language was not as clear as it could have been.

I am not insinuating anything. I’m trying to ask 2 questions.

Leon is not an overpaying type of guy. Leon is not a trade for Wants type of guy: he is dead purposeful, and really only does Needs (at this level trade). Leon absolutely has to meet the asking price. Why is he willing?

I’d like to know what people think Leon was paying for - or overpaying for - and why.

As I said, "price is on an issue in the absence of value". So if you had to pay up to box out any competition for him, one might consider "We overpaid". But if he delivers what hoped, then its not an issue. Then its fair or greater perhaps.

For example people outbid others at an auction. They think "dude over paid for that painting". Say the person paid also bought other pieces. Then sells the collection as a whole making the whole tranche even more valuable.

Im saying lets see how it plays out.

martin wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:WANT was a next level difference maker to allow us to beat Boston! We did not get that.
Need is to make your roster better and fill holes. Bridges makes the roster better. We still have a hole at backup center. The question will be if the cost of Bridges will keep us from getting what we really WANT and the ability to fill that hole at center.

Why would you start your assumption there?

If Mikal can take away defensive responsibility of a singular defensive wing in OG who can then take defensive responsibility away from Randle (we have seen some of that January magic?), and they both elevate what Randle and Jalen do best allowing them to be their ultimate best, why is that not objectively getting what you want? It’s perhaps not a direct upgrade in a singular player but the indirect upgrades around them is, objectively, a definite want. In January, team toasted Philly Boston Denver.

Everyone, in different ways, is better. That is not a Want? I guess it’s how much you envision those upgrades have gotten, eye of the beholder. OG was lightening in a bottle for a full glorious month. We got another one of those coming. Possibly.

If Mikal can start which allows DDV to become a super duper sub and shores up that second unit that does not have a more traditional rim protecting backup center, why is that not a difference making move? Mikal’s potential intro to the starting lineup makes DDVs job hypothetically super easy, no? And he and Deuce have shown us this, that they are up to it, right? Boston’s bench is not anywhere Knicks bench and that’s a super killa want. Depth and second unit.

I thought OG was a difference making move. Same with Mikal.

And why can’t those beat Boston? My question is why does Boston think they can keep up with a healthy Knicks team?

The positions on Mikal feel like the same positions taken on OG. If you loved the OG trade on 12/31, you probably love the Bridges trade. It’s in the exact same vein of a trade. 3&D Hustle player with positional size.