jskinny35 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

Rookie wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:I've been trying to give both trades the benefit of the doubt but I really don't like either trade. OG is always hurt, that's who he is. Meanwhile RJ & IQ were a lock for 140 games combined, we traded that for a guy that you're lucky to get 60 from.

I love the RJ IQ trade. Very good players but OG is a perfect fit. A thought Precious would be useful in his role but he has surpassed all expectations. We weren’t going to pay IQ starter money, heck Toronto might not even give him the kwan he wants.

The OG trade was good for both teams. I don’t see where the Grimes trade has benefitted us at all.

well we should have paid IQ starter money because he's really good. But even if we didn't want to pay him, we traded him AND RJ for a very injury prone player who also needs to be paid. RJ showed last playoffs he was one to build around, not Randle.

RJ & IQ would have made sense for Mikal but OG just comes with too many issues and they haven't taken long to manifest.

How anyone can watch RJ for three years and say we needed to build around him instead of a three time All Star is beyond me. Years full of inconsistency and with no ability to hit a three point shot. Watching his ability to read a defense is like watching a HS level player. Kid had permanent blinders screwed on. Could safely say he is not even someone to build around in Toronto.
Concern regarding OGs injury history is valid. But injuries can come in bunches and can stay away for years. Hopefully we can sign him to a decent contract and he stays healthy.
Randle being out and team struggling has shown he is not expendable as some thought.
When both OG and Randle were here guys were talking chip.
Short memory continues .

As for IQ, great player. Too bad we could not keep him. But not smart to give him starting PG money when he was destined to be JB's back up. Ones upset we traded him ignore he wanted to be a starter. So unless you were willing to trade JB to do so, can't complain.

Know the concern with upcoming renewal for Grimes but would agree that he seemed to be a Thibs guy and Bogs is not. As was Evan. So why add him if Thibs is not going to play him. Burks has been disappointing. Watching both play defense makes one realize why Detroit was so bad.
But let's wait to we get our franchise player and All Defense stud back. They may fit better with them and have to do much less

RJ has played better on Toronto where he is more of a facilitator and primary ball handler. On the Knicks it was Randle (then Brunson) so it magnified RJ's weaknesses (eg standing at 3pt line for kick outs and being 3rd option). On the Raptors he's more of the focus so those of us that preferred RJ were thinking if Randle was moved the ball would move more and RJ's poor 3 pt shooting and third fiddle status wouldn't have become as much of an issue. Once Brunson arrived everybody had to adjust and RJ struggled to find a new role that was efficient and effective.

Overall it seems like a great trade for both teams because OG seems perfect for the 3rd star role, plays stronger defense and is better at shooting the kick out 3. RJ is doing well playing in his hometown. We just need to hire the Phx Suns medical staff to keep out guys healthy long-term.

I think OG may have broken out a bit more in Toronto without Siakam there. The trade wasn’t bad for them because IQ and Barrett are good players though.

gradyandrew wrote:Main value of the Grimes trade was that Bogs and Burks were able to soak up rotation minutes during a period when the Knicks were three men down. Despite going 4-8 after the trade and before OG came back, the Knicks were able to hang on to home court advantage for the first round.

Maybe the two of them look better catching and shooting kicks out from Randle and tap outs from Mitchell on the offensive glass. Them moving up a slot, for Bogs from 4 to 3 and Burke's from 3- 1/2 ~also might make a difference.

Either way, both guys have been band aids in a way that Grimes and Fournier were not.

Incidentally Grimes has missed a majority of the games in that time period. Like them or not, Bogs and Burks ate minutes when the goal was to keep the ship afloat.

I also wonder how much Grimes going affected the leap we have seen from McBride - in performance as well as minutes.

GustavBahler wrote:Frank was picked and praised by Phil, thats a big endorsement. Knicks were told by Jerry West that Grimes was a special player and to hold on to the kid. "The logo".

Maybe sometimes players start believing their own hype, especially when it comes from BBall legends. Frank played more loose as a rookie as well, but overall Ntilikina and Grimes looked like they put in zero work in 3-4 years in expanding their game.

The wisdom of this trade shouldnt be judged until the playoffs, and we're at full strength, or close. I disagree about the EF/Bogs comparisons, Bogs can get a shot off from more places on the court, more versatile.

They werent expected to prop up a team gutted by injuries. You're holding them to the wrong standard. Playoffs baby, thats where it matters. Thats where the rubber meets the road.

The bold is what we were told, I'm not really seeing it with my own eyes. A couple flashes here and there which EF could also do, but struggles to create good shots on a nightly basis and fumbles possessions a lot when he asked to make a play 1:1.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/BenRitholtzNBA/status/1768105134716821777

GustavBahler wrote:

DLeethal wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Frank was picked and praised by Phil, thats a big endorsement. Knicks were told by Jerry West that Grimes was a special player and to hold on to the kid. "The logo".

Maybe sometimes players start believing their own hype, especially when it comes from BBall legends. Frank played more loose as a rookie as well, but overall Ntilikina and Grimes looked like they put in zero work in 3-4 years in expanding their game.

The wisdom of this trade shouldnt be judged until the playoffs, and we're at full strength, or close. I disagree about the EF/Bogs comparisons, Bogs can get a shot off from more places on the court, more versatile.

They werent expected to prop up a team gutted by injuries. You're holding them to the wrong standard. Playoffs baby, thats where it matters. Thats where the rubber meets the road.

The bold is what we were told, I'm not really seeing it with my own eyes. A couple flashes here and there which EF could also do, but struggles to create good shots on a nightly basis and fumbles possessions a lot when he asked to make a play 1:1.

I see Bogs using his dribble more than EF did. Attempting shots that he normally didnt. I dont see nearly enough of those shots going in, but Bogs has shown the ability to hit them.

I believe the lack of a playmaker in the second unit has players working harder for buckets than they normally would. It would be great to see more driving and dishing from Deuce. Thats something we lost when IQ was traded. Hopefully the ball movement will be better at full strength, with better looks.

Mitch or iHart back in the second unit will give us more scoring opportunities as well, less one and dones.

Fair enough, he's shown more ability to create mid range and post than EF. Just hasn't been able to convert them since he's been here.

The easy answer is that playing off Randle will get him opps like it once did for EF, for Bullock, for Burks. But then you have a little bit of a defense problem playing those two guys next to each other, although it could work for spurts.

At the end of the day, Bogs can make an impact just by having his man glue to him when he's off ball, that helps the spacing etc. So him roaming around out there for 12-15 mins is not going to hurt us too bad even when he's not scoring a ton, but I think having both him and Burks out there at the same time and both not scoring has been too much of a negative.

DLeethal wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:

DLeethal wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Frank was picked and praised by Phil, thats a big endorsement. Knicks were told by Jerry West that Grimes was a special player and to hold on to the kid. "The logo".

Maybe sometimes players start believing their own hype, especially when it comes from BBall legends. Frank played more loose as a rookie as well, but overall Ntilikina and Grimes looked like they put in zero work in 3-4 years in expanding their game.

The wisdom of this trade shouldnt be judged until the playoffs, and we're at full strength, or close. I disagree about the EF/Bogs comparisons, Bogs can get a shot off from more places on the court, more versatile.

They werent expected to prop up a team gutted by injuries. You're holding them to the wrong standard. Playoffs baby, thats where it matters. Thats where the rubber meets the road.

The bold is what we were told, I'm not really seeing it with my own eyes. A couple flashes here and there which EF could also do, but struggles to create good shots on a nightly basis and fumbles possessions a lot when he asked to make a play 1:1.

The main point for me is that Thibs is willing to play Bogs and Burkes and he clearly wasn't willing to play EF. Everything else is just window dressing.

He played EF for an entire season before moving on though. Those guys just got here. We don't know what Thibs is thinking or what he will do when it becomes decision time with the playoff rotation.

Those two will be 'situational' at most when we are at full strength. There is no way Bogs gets Precious's minutes. When Mitch comes back, Bogs is done.

SupremeCommander wrote:I can't bother reading this thread because I believe the original premise is insane

TLDR; we got a 20ppg scorer to replace IQ on the bench, trading the guy who got replaced in the lineup by OG. That's desperate? Grimes value would've plummeted with the minutes he'd have gotten here. I don't see trading fringe players for 20ppg guys as desperate--I see it as smart

Grimes averaged 11.3ppg last year and 7.3ppg this year, I wouldn't be surprised if Bogs ends up averaging even less than that here. Seems like he's being phased out unfortunately, not totaling surprising.

SupremeCommander wrote:I can't bother reading this thread because I believe the original premise is insane

TLDR; we got a 20ppg scorer to replace IQ on the bench, trading the guy who got replaced in the lineup by OG. That's desperate? Grimes value would've plummeted with the minutes he'd have gotten here. I don't see trading fringe players for 20ppg guys as desperate--I see it as smart

The support for grimes has become a little insane. Grimes complained about his role and getting no touches despite being in the same role with the same starting 5. Then Donte took his role and ran with it, having a break out year. Before the trade, deuce was jumping him in the rotation as a developing player, while grimes sulked on the court. He essentially demanded a trade and now he goes to Detroit with no path to becoming anymore than a backend rotation guy. Cunningham and Ivey are the backcourt there for this regime. Fontecchio is the bigger wing defender, and Thompson is essentially trying to become Josh hart 2.0. Those 4 are locked into all of the minutes at the 1,2, and 3 they can handle. Grimes complained and played himself off of a competitive team and found himself in no-mans land, and he’s going to lose a lot of money because of it. Had he played as a starter the way he was supposed to, he would have road this thing to the OG trade, probably received more shots because of the usage decreasing from replacing Barrett with OG, and then DiVincenzo probably would be providing all of the offense needed off of the bench, reducing the need for the Detroit trade altogether. So no love lost here, this entire scenario started with grimes complaints.