OG i'm hoping comes in in the low 30's.

DLeethal wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

Rookie wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:I've been trying to give both trades the benefit of the doubt but I really don't like either trade. OG is always hurt, that's who he is. Meanwhile RJ & IQ were a lock for 140 games combined, we traded that for a guy that you're lucky to get 60 from.

I love the RJ IQ trade. Very good players but OG is a perfect fit. A thought Precious would be useful in his role but he has surpassed all expectations. We weren’t going to pay IQ starter money, heck Toronto might not even give him the kwan he wants.

The OG trade was good for both teams. I don’t see where the Grimes trade has benefitted us at all.

well we should have paid IQ starter money because he's really good. But even if we didn't want to pay him, we traded him AND RJ for a very injury prone player who also needs to be paid. RJ showed last playoffs he was one to build around, not Randle.

RJ & IQ would have made sense for Mikal but OG just comes with too many issues and they haven't taken long to manifest.

You're going to have a tough time convincing me of that after tonight's game.

the argument isn't whether a healthy OG makes us better, he clearly does.

The argument is we gave up all our youth essentially for OG and was it worth it considering he's due a payday and the very glaring injury issues.

we lost 11 of 16 prior games, while putting a huge strain on Brunson, Hart and DDV. no way that happens if we had RJ & IQ. but that's the issue when you trade guys who play for someone who doesn't. its not just about when OG DOES play, its when he doesn't... and not only does our record suffer, but it also puts a ton of pressure on the other starters.

The answer is yes. It is worth it. (*v*) (that is supposed to be a crow).

I don't think the Grimes trade looks good in retrospect. On paper, it meets some math tests. But Bogs and Burks are playing like ****. It might fit under no harm no foul, though I think Grimes was better here than he is doing in Detroit.

Here is my real point. You need to judge the trades we made based on what the players were doing here, not what their ultimate potential was. There is a world in which RJ's contract is a toxic contract that would need an asset to go with it to get moved. Barrett is playing better in Toronto. Its ok for him to do well there.

OG's injury history is real. I think we players that have his intensity, injuries are a natural consequence. This injury had nothing to do with that.

IQ is a mystery. I love him as a player but he disappeared in the playoffs. He deserved a starting role and got one.

I think if you view all of these transactions in the context of franchise development, this entire trade will come down to if and when OG signs. If he leaves, we kind of ****ed up. Its a high price for a rental. If he signs reasonably, you have added a key piece of a championship caliber team.

Sucks he got hurt, but damn, I don't want to be on the other side of this team if healthy in the playoffs.

Part of the trade was getting a 1 year expiring to replace Fournier. Unless you think we should've just picked up his option. Obviously we could have done that. But I think that would have been tough to do for the FO.

Why? They tried to trade Fournier but no one wanted him. He is barely getting rotation minutes in Detroit. Thibs had no problem leaning on Grimes in 4th Q’s when he wanted defensive stops and floor spreading.

Bogs/Burks are so old and slow they are to easy to defend. Bogs is turning the ball over and Burks has no problem jacking bad shots. Both are useless on defense and together are worse than useless

Knixkik wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

DLeethal wrote:Grimes stats in DET are pathetic. Moving on from him while the fanbase was propping him up will make Thibs look smarter than the fans, again.

5.4 ppg/2.4rpg/2.2 apg 22% fg/20% 3pt in DET

as bad as Grimes has been offensively this year he was still a steady rotation player for us and last season was a big anchor for us. I dont think he was out of favor with Thibs, the reality is we simply had better options this season.

That being said he started to remind me more and more of Dotson. But I wouldn't be surprised if he found his groove.

The advantage grimes has now is he can develop with no pressure, and teams don’t play as hard against Detroit so he will get easier opportunities. But the bad thing is with Cade, Ivey, and Thompson he will have to develop around a bunch of below average outside shooters instead of someone like Brunson.

I read where they want to put Grimes on ball more, like we did his last summer league with us.

Rookie wrote:

DLeethal wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

Rookie wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:I've been trying to give both trades the benefit of the doubt but I really don't like either trade. OG is always hurt, that's who he is. Meanwhile RJ & IQ were a lock for 140 games combined, we traded that for a guy that you're lucky to get 60 from.

I love the RJ IQ trade. Very good players but OG is a perfect fit. A thought Precious would be useful in his role but he has surpassed all expectations. We weren’t going to pay IQ starter money, heck Toronto might not even give him the kwan he wants.

The OG trade was good for both teams. I don’t see where the Grimes trade has benefitted us at all.

well we should have paid IQ starter money because he's really good. But even if we didn't want to pay him, we traded him AND RJ for a very injury prone player who also needs to be paid. RJ showed last playoffs he was one to build around, not Randle.

RJ & IQ would have made sense for Mikal but OG just comes with too many issues and they haven't taken long to manifest.

You're going to have a tough time convincing me of that after tonight's game.

the argument isn't whether a healthy OG makes us better, he clearly does.

The argument is we gave up all our youth essentially for OG and was it worth it considering he's due a payday and the very glaring injury issues.

we lost 11 of 16 prior games, while putting a huge strain on Brunson, Hart and DDV. no way that happens if we had RJ & IQ. but that's the issue when you trade guys who play for someone who doesn't. its not just about when OG DOES play, its when he doesn't... and not only does our record suffer, but it also puts a ton of pressure on the other starters.

The answer is yes. It is worth it. (*v*) (that is supposed to be a crow).

I don't think the Grimes trade looks good in retrospect. On paper, it meets some math tests. But Bogs and Burks are playing like ****. It might fit under no harm no foul, though I think Grimes was better here than he is doing in Detroit.

Here is my real point. You need to judge the trades we made based on what the players were doing here, not what their ultimate potential was. There is a world in which RJ's contract is a toxic contract that would need an asset to go with it to get moved. Barrett is playing better in Toronto. Its ok for him to do well there.

OG's injury history is real. I think we players that have his intensity, injuries are a natural consequence. This injury had nothing to do with that.

IQ is a mystery. I love him as a player but he disappeared in the playoffs. He deserved a starting role and got one.

I think if you view all of these transactions in the context of franchise development, this entire trade will come down to if and when OG signs. If he leaves, we kind of ****ed up. Its a high price for a rental. If he signs reasonably, you have added a key piece of a championship caliber team.

Sucks he got hurt, but damn, I don't want to be on the other side of this team if healthy in the playoffs.

Part of the trade was getting a 1 year expiring to replace Fournier. Unless you think we should've just picked up his option. Obviously we could have done that. But I think that would have been tough to do for the FO.

Why? They tried to trade Fournier but no one wanted him. He is barely getting rotation minutes in Detroit. Thibs had no problem leaning on Grimes in 4th Q’s when he wanted defensive stops and floor spreading.

Bogs/Burks are so old and slow they are to easy to defend. Bogs is turning the ball over and Burks has no problem jacking bad shots. Both are useless on defense and together are worse than useless

Because it's the NBA and things come to a head and then they get resolved. Fournier came to a head, just like Obi did. It would have been hard to pick up his option, he was vocal for years about wanting out. I understand technically we could have picked up his option. But you don't see teams act like that anymore, it's a players league, agents run our team, and most of the time you eventually "do right" by players that want out. It is what it is.

Thibs hadn't relied on Grimes to do much in a long time.

Would I take the trade back if you told me they were going to pick up Fournier's option? Yes
Would I take the trade back if you told me they were not going to pick up Fournier's option? No
Would Grimes get legit mins in this rotation? No
Do I think Grimes ends up being a stud? No

The trade is meh, with the amount of good moves we've made, I'm fine just moving on from this one and calling it a wash.

nycericanguy wrote:Maxey is getting maxed easily no pun intended.

OG i'm hoping comes in in the low 30's.

OG is worth every penny, the guy's impact is ridiculous.

Rookie wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

DLeethal wrote:Grimes stats in DET are pathetic. Moving on from him while the fanbase was propping him up will make Thibs look smarter than the fans, again.

5.4 ppg/2.4rpg/2.2 apg 22% fg/20% 3pt in DET

as bad as Grimes has been offensively this year he was still a steady rotation player for us and last season was a big anchor for us. I dont think he was out of favor with Thibs, the reality is we simply had better options this season.

That being said he started to remind me more and more of Dotson. But I wouldn't be surprised if he found his groove.

The advantage grimes has now is he can develop with no pressure, and teams don’t play as hard against Detroit so he will get easier opportunities. But the bad thing is with Cade, Ivey, and Thompson he will have to develop around a bunch of below average outside shooters instead of someone like Brunson.

I read where they want to put Grimes on ball more, like we did his last summer league with us.

With Cade and Ivey in the lineup? Seems like an odd decision

martin wrote:

Rookie wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

DLeethal wrote:Grimes stats in DET are pathetic. Moving on from him while the fanbase was propping him up will make Thibs look smarter than the fans, again.

5.4 ppg/2.4rpg/2.2 apg 22% fg/20% 3pt in DET

as bad as Grimes has been offensively this year he was still a steady rotation player for us and last season was a big anchor for us. I dont think he was out of favor with Thibs, the reality is we simply had better options this season.

That being said he started to remind me more and more of Dotson. But I wouldn't be surprised if he found his groove.

The advantage grimes has now is he can develop with no pressure, and teams don’t play as hard against Detroit so he will get easier opportunities. But the bad thing is with Cade, Ivey, and Thompson he will have to develop around a bunch of below average outside shooters instead of someone like Brunson.

I read where they want to put Grimes on ball more, like we did his last summer league with us.

With Cade and Ivey in the lineup? Seems like an odd decision

Yeah, they aren’t sure they are all in on Ivey. That’s why I would have asked for Ivey for Grimes

GustavBahler wrote:Frank was picked and praised by Phil, thats a big endorsement. Knicks were told by Jerry West that Grimes was a special player and to hold on to the kid. "The logo".

Maybe sometimes players start believing their own hype, especially when it comes from BBall legends. Frank played more loose as a rookie as well, but overall Ntilikina and Grimes looked like they put in zero work in 3-4 years in expanding their game.

The wisdom of this trade shouldnt be judged until the playoffs, and we're at full strength, or close. I disagree about the EF/Bogs comparisons, Bogs can get a shot off from more places on the court, more versatile.

They werent expected to prop up a team gutted by injuries. You're holding them to the wrong standard. Playoffs baby, thats where it matters. Thats where the rubber meets the road.

Can you explain with OG back, and absolutely no pressure in a blowout….and even playing against the other teams garbage time players how Burks/Bogs still **** the bed?

Rookie wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Frank was picked and praised by Phil, thats a big endorsement. Knicks were told by Jerry West that Grimes was a special player and to hold on to the kid. "The logo".

Maybe sometimes players start believing their own hype, especially when it comes from BBall legends. Frank played more loose as a rookie as well, but overall Ntilikina and Grimes looked like they put in zero work in 3-4 years in expanding their game.

The wisdom of this trade shouldnt be judged until the playoffs, and we're at full strength, or close. I disagree about the EF/Bogs comparisons, Bogs can get a shot off from more places on the court, more versatile.

They werent expected to prop up a team gutted by injuries. You're holding them to the wrong standard. Playoffs baby, thats where it matters. Thats where the rubber meets the road.

Can you explain with OG back, and absolutely no pressure in a blowout….and even playing against the other teams garbage time players how Burks/Bogs still **** the bed?

{Cough-cough),, I agree with Gustav here.
Looked like that second unit preblow out kept Phila in the game with good defense.
Thats what I saw last night.
Sometimes props to opponent for executing.
As for how and why they are not fitting in it could be a few things. I can guess but I got no coaching cred. My take is Thibs players have to do other **** besides score. Burkes not been here for a while and perhaps its been a while since Bogs was asked to rebound and play defense. If its in his head then it takes time.
Sometimes players can't execute what the coach wants him to. Knox, Grimes, frank, and others have come and gone.
RJ bounced back time and time again. At his age he was given rope. He'll be a better player for it. IQ also. To make bank he had to get his playmaking skills up to standard and sometimes his scoring would be effected. Not just Thibs, its many coaches.
Im guessing. Guys like Josh Hart it was in his DNA so it was a great match. Deuce defense kept him from going to League full time.

With the line up changes of this team its not unusual for a new player stepping in to that to have issues? Maybe?
At the end of the day it might not be a good fit, but lets see how team does when Randle is back and how Thibs uses Bogs.

EwingsGlass wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Rookie wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Frank was picked and praised by Phil, thats a big endorsement. Knicks were told by Jerry West that Grimes was a special player and to hold on to the kid. "The logo".

Maybe sometimes players start believing their own hype, especially when it comes from BBall legends. Frank played more loose as a rookie as well, but overall Ntilikina and Grimes looked like they put in zero work in 3-4 years in expanding their game.

The wisdom of this trade shouldnt be judged until the playoffs, and we're at full strength, or close. I disagree about the EF/Bogs comparisons, Bogs can get a shot off from more places on the court, more versatile.

They werent expected to prop up a team gutted by injuries. You're holding them to the wrong standard. Playoffs baby, thats where it matters. Thats where the rubber meets the road.

Can you explain with OG back, and absolutely no pressure in a blowout….and even playing against the other teams garbage time players how Burks/Bogs still **** the bed?

You're asking me why Bogs and Burks didnt instantly play better in OG's first game back? OG is a SF, not a PG.

Speaking of PGs, we dont have a legit distributor in the second unit. Deuce is looking mostly to score. At full strength thats the only weakness I see going into the playoffs.

One silver lining, Josh Hart is doing a very good job as a distributor lately, registering some high assist games. When he moves back to the bench full time, hopefully we will have better ball movement, as well as more second chance opportunities with Mitch back.

That should help Bogs and Burks get better looks. Randle back will put less pressure on the second unit to deliver.

In fairness, I thought Burks and Bogs were being brought in to be the distributors in the second unit.

I thought it was the 40 percent scoring from 3. Burks was underwhelming as a PG his first time around.

One hole we havent filled in the OG trade yet, is IQ's role as a distributor. He was very good at it.

HofstraBBall wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

Rookie wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:I've been trying to give both trades the benefit of the doubt but I really don't like either trade. OG is always hurt, that's who he is. Meanwhile RJ & IQ were a lock for 140 games combined, we traded that for a guy that you're lucky to get 60 from.

I love the RJ IQ trade. Very good players but OG is a perfect fit. A thought Precious would be useful in his role but he has surpassed all expectations. We weren’t going to pay IQ starter money, heck Toronto might not even give him the kwan he wants.

The OG trade was good for both teams. I don’t see where the Grimes trade has benefitted us at all.

well we should have paid IQ starter money because he's really good. But even if we didn't want to pay him, we traded him AND RJ for a very injury prone player who also needs to be paid. RJ showed last playoffs he was one to build around, not Randle.

RJ & IQ would have made sense for Mikal but OG just comes with too many issues and they haven't taken long to manifest.

How anyone can watch RJ for three years and say we needed to build around him instead of a three time All Star is beyond me. Years full of inconsistency and with no ability to hit a three point shot. Watching his ability to read a defense is like watching a HS level player. Kid had permanent blinders screwed on. Could safely say he is not even someone to build around in Toronto.
Concern regarding OGs injury history is valid. But injuries can come in bunches and can stay away for years. Hopefully we can sign him to a decent contract and he stays healthy.
Randle being out and team struggling has shown he is not expendable as some thought.
When both OG and Randle were here guys were talking chip.
Short memory continues .

As for IQ, great player. Too bad we could not keep him. But not smart to give him starting PG money when he was destined to be JB's back up. Ones upset we traded him ignore he wanted to be a starter. So unless you were willing to trade JB to do so, can't complain.

Know the concern with upcoming renewal for Grimes but would agree that he seemed to be a Thibs guy and Bogs is not. As was Evan. So why add him if Thibs is not going to play him. Burks has been disappointing. Watching both play defense makes one realize why Detroit was so bad.
But let's wait to we get our franchise player and All Defense stud back. They may fit better with them and have to do much less

RJ has played better on Toronto where he is more of a facilitator and primary ball handler. On the Knicks it was Randle (then Brunson) so it magnified RJ's weaknesses (eg standing at 3pt line for kick outs and being 3rd option). On the Raptors he's more of the focus so those of us that preferred RJ were thinking if Randle was moved the ball would move more and RJ's poor 3 pt shooting and third fiddle status wouldn't have become as much of an issue. Once Brunson arrived everybody had to adjust and RJ struggled to find a new role that was efficient and effective.

Overall it seems like a great trade for both teams because OG seems perfect for the 3rd star role, plays stronger defense and is better at shooting the kick out 3. RJ is doing well playing in his hometown. We just need to hire the Phx Suns medical staff to keep out guys healthy long-term.