GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:Pat Riley on load management:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/1992.html

Would we have seen Starks go 2-18, 0-11 from 3, if Ro' Blackman had been sitting on the bench for game 7? Barely got any PT during that playoff run. It can be argued that Riley should have expanded his rotation.

For a good while, RJ and Randle were number one and two in the league in mpg. That wasnt a mirage. Neither is Thibs lack of playoff success. If some fans want to blame the last 15 years on everyone but the coach, who played a large part in roster building, be my guest. Dont be surprised if some of us disagree.

The only other explanation for overachieving in the regular season, but never the playoffs. Is that Thibs is lacking as a coach in another dept, like Xs and Os, roster building. Has to be a good reason beyond its everyone elses fault but Thibs.

I hear some posters who criticize Thibs admit on some level that he is a good coach. But I dont hear his strongest supporters admit that he ever makes any mistakes. Makes conversation difficult.

Might want to quantify that statement.

Last season? Nope.
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/nba-leaders-in-total-minutes-played-2023
Year before? Nope
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/nba-leaders-in-total-minutes-played-2022/url]

Here you go Gustav! Your "gotcha moment"! Thank me later. I did the work for you.
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/nba-leaders-in-total-minutes-played-2021/url]
You think Teen RJ or first year Allstar and Subsequent All NBA Randle objected? Did anyone get hurt that year?

He is now in his 12 season as a head coach. Not 15th. Math bro. Be accurate.
7 years he got COY votes. Won twice.

There are nine active coaches with Championships. Rivers is back in the game.

Each with different circumstances. I suppose one can tear down some of them to lessor status as they walked into good circumstance rather then build up. Vogel and Nurse come to mind. Rivers is a hack that should have won more. Carlisle really sweated it out in Dallas and gets credit. Spo is a great coach but he only won with the Heatles thus far. Lue stepped in mid year for Blatt and Lebron, Kyrie and Love really played for him. Pop is legendary. Malone did a great job with Nuggs. Kerr? 4 chips is no fluke. He took over a 55 win team.
Thibs walked into **** and elevated to 4th seed with Elf Payton!

Nobody is putting Thibs in the rafters yet or sizing him for his HOF jacket. But the man flat out coaches and flat out works his ass off. Not like some lazy ass-make **** up posters who won't ever mutter "Oh, your right"!
Even the great Nalod is wrong many times!

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:Pat Riley on load management:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/1992.html

Would we have seen Starks go 2-18, 0-11 from 3, if Ro' Blackman had been sitting on the bench for game 7? Barely got any PT during that playoff run. It can be argued that Riley should have expanded his rotation.

For a good while, RJ and Randle were number one and two in the league in mpg. That wasnt a mirage. Neither is Thibs lack of playoff success. If some fans want to blame the last 15 years on everyone but the coach, who played a large part in roster building, be my guest. Dont be surprised if some of us disagree.

The only other explanation for overachieving in the regular season, but never the playoffs. Is that Thibs is lacking as a coach in another dept, like Xs and Os, roster building. Has to be a good reason beyond its everyone elses fault but Thibs.

I hear some posters who criticize Thibs admit on some level that he is a good coach. But I dont hear his strongest supporters admit that he ever makes any mistakes. Makes conversation difficult.

This is what happens when you actually don't know the history of a coach. Literally no idea what you are talking about and it makes zero sense.

Even if you are only able to recall the Thib's Knicks year, you KNOW both the team and the coach overachieved. By a lot.

When one has Noel/Taj, Randle, RJ, Bullock, Elfrid... just making it to the playoffs is a clear miracle. 4th seed. Put the caveat here on playoff wins and you have a good start to deluding yourself.

The Knicks smashed Cleveland last year. That was sheer out-coaching and out playing through and through. ie. Overachieving regardless of seeding. Obliterated a very good team who went all in on a player trade in Donovan. Played a top-notch Miami team REALLY well.

In Chicago, after Rose went down, that team overachieved to 50 wins and then year later in 2012-13 got gunned down by LeBron, Wade, Bosh.

There is context to this? Or just ignore?

Seems to me the problem is knowing exactly what actually happened.

I don't even know what those last 2 sentences mean.

I just gave you 15 years of context, and you just cherry picked a few seasons. When has Thibs going all out for a high seed done anything for his track record in the playoffs?

The only thing I left out is his Minny days, where he took a team that had not reached playoffs in 15 year and got them there in 2. I am not cherry picking, I am literally giving you examples of what you are looking for and then you promptly ignore then cause they flat dispute what you are trying to say. And you did not give 15 years of context, you glossed over 15 years of a coach and misstated them.

GustavBahler wrote:Thibs has largely built the teams he has coached. 31-41 in the playoffs since 2010. Thats a record that isnt immune from criticism.

As far as last last part, there isnt a coach in this league who doesnt make a bad call now and then. The kind of stuff you would normally point out on a sports message board.

Thibs has been the head coach in 3 cities: Chicago, Minny, NY. There is only one club he was responsible for building the team.

GustavBahler, you should learn the actual history of things and get them straight, cause it makes conversation difficult when you can't come to these details yourself and just make stuff up.

Thibs was in charge in Minny, Layden worked for him. 4 years, team president, his roster, 97-107.

Butler left because he saw a lack of professionalism from his teammates. Did better post-Minny. Went to the Finals with a less talented Heat. The difference? Spoelstra.

Still no acknowledgment that Thibs sub 500 record in the playoffs is in any way on him. Thats pretty basic stuff Martin.

You need other people to acknowledge basic facts for you? Jesus man. What does that at all have to do with overachieving in the playoffs?

How about you get some facts right? Thibs got to Minny in April 2016. He was out Jan 2019, meaning was with Minny for just about 2.5 years? That's a good round up to 4 to you? Thibs basically got a perenial tank team to the playoffs in 2 years after missing them for about 15. And then he was let go.

How are you supposed to overachieve in the playoffs in those years?

Do you even know what you are talking about any more?

Thibs playoff record sucks for someone who has been a head coach since 2010, 31-41. All I hear is excuses, lots and lots of excuses. One conference finals appearance in 2010. Thats the best Thibs has ever done in the playoffs and it was in 2010.

Plenty of underdog teams have gone deep in the playoffs, but a coach as good as Thibs is supposed to be, thats too heavy a lift. Coaches have routinely gone further with equal or less talent than Thibs has since 2010.

My point is that its very hard to go deep in the playoffs when you make the regular season the be all end all. Enough of a sample size to say that this has been Thibs MO.

Have to repeat that I do believe that Thibs can go deep in the playoffs if we have a deep bench, and Thibs is willing to make use of it.

You get checked by reality a lot. Kinda pointless after that.

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fishmike wrote:Pat Riley on load management:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/1992.html

Would we have seen Starks go 2-18, 0-11 from 3, if Ro' Blackman had been sitting on the bench for game 7? Barely got any PT during that playoff run. It can be argued that Riley should have expanded his rotation.

For a good while, RJ and Randle were number one and two in the league in mpg. That wasnt a mirage. Neither is Thibs lack of playoff success. If some fans want to blame the last 15 years on everyone but the coach, who played a large part in roster building, be my guest. Dont be surprised if some of us disagree.

The only other explanation for overachieving in the regular season, but never the playoffs. Is that Thibs is lacking as a coach in another dept, like Xs and Os, roster building. Has to be a good reason beyond its everyone elses fault but Thibs.

I hear some posters who criticize Thibs admit on some level that he is a good coach. But I dont hear his strongest supporters admit that he ever makes any mistakes. Makes conversation difficult.

This is what happens when you actually don't know the history of a coach. Literally no idea what you are talking about and it makes zero sense.

Even if you are only able to recall the Thib's Knicks year, you KNOW both the team and the coach overachieved. By a lot.

When one has Noel/Taj, Randle, RJ, Bullock, Elfrid... just making it to the playoffs is a clear miracle. 4th seed. Put the caveat here on playoff wins and you have a good start to deluding yourself.

The Knicks smashed Cleveland last year. That was sheer out-coaching and out playing through and through. ie. Overachieving regardless of seeding. Obliterated a very good team who went all in on a player trade in Donovan. Played a top-notch Miami team REALLY well.

In Chicago, after Rose went down, that team overachieved to 50 wins and then year later in 2012-13 got gunned down by LeBron, Wade, Bosh.

There is context to this? Or just ignore?

Seems to me the problem is knowing exactly what actually happened.

I don't even know what those last 2 sentences mean.

I just gave you 15 years of context, and you just cherry picked a few seasons. When has Thibs going all out for a high seed done anything for his track record in the playoffs?

The only thing I left out is his Minny days, where he took a team that had not reached playoffs in 15 year and got them there in 2. I am not cherry picking, I am literally giving you examples of what you are looking for and then you promptly ignore then cause they flat dispute what you are trying to say. And you did not give 15 years of context, you glossed over 15 years of a coach and misstated them.

GustavBahler wrote:Thibs has largely built the teams he has coached. 31-41 in the playoffs since 2010. Thats a record that isnt immune from criticism.

As far as last last part, there isnt a coach in this league who doesnt make a bad call now and then. The kind of stuff you would normally point out on a sports message board.

Thibs has been the head coach in 3 cities: Chicago, Minny, NY. There is only one club he was responsible for building the team.

GustavBahler, you should learn the actual history of things and get them straight, cause it makes conversation difficult when you can't come to these details yourself and just make stuff up.

Thibs was in charge in Minny, Layden worked for him. 4 years, team president, his roster, 97-107.

Butler left because he saw a lack of professionalism from his teammates. Did better post-Minny. Went to the Finals with a less talented Heat. The difference? Spoelstra.

Still no acknowledgment that Thibs sub 500 record in the playoffs is in any way on him. Thats pretty basic stuff Martin.

You need other people to acknowledge basic facts for you? Jesus man. What does that at all have to do with overachieving in the playoffs?

How about you get some facts right? Thibs got to Minny in April 2016. He was out Jan 2019, meaning was with Minny for just about 2.5 years? That's a good round up to 4 to you? Thibs basically got a perenial tank team to the playoffs in 2 years after missing them for about 15. And then he was let go.

How are you supposed to overachieve in the playoffs in those years?

Do you even know what you are talking about any more?

Thibs playoff record sucks for someone who has been a head coach since 2010, 31-41. All I hear is excuses, lots and lots of excuses. One conference finals appearance in 2010. Thats the best Thibs has ever done in the playoffs and it was in 2010.

Plenty of underdog teams have gone deep in the playoffs, but a coach as good as Thibs is supposed to be, thats too heavy a lift. Coaches have routinely gone further with equal or less talent than Thibs has since 2010.

My point is that its very hard to go deep in the playoffs when you make the regular season the be all end all. Enough of a sample size to say that this has been Thibs MO.

Have to repeat that I do believe that Thibs can go deep in the playoffs if we have a deep bench, and Thibs is willing to make use of it.

You get checked by reality a lot. Kinda pointless after that.

In my reality 31-41 and one ECF appearance is mediocre at best. In my reality, this is evidence of how much Thibs likes to lean on his starters.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=which+nba+team+plays+the+most+starter+minutes+per+game+2022-23

I dont know what it is about you and your "soul mate" that we cant talk hoops without the conversation going south. I try to disagree without being disagreeable, but you sure dont make it easy Martin. Making the case that Thibs has relied too much on his starters, shouldnt set you off like this. Wasnt always like this.

I haven’t talked about Thibs and anything about starters.

You definitely have some reality problems.

Try keeping your convos straight.

His Bulls seasons require context, because Rose or Noah were hurt for a few of their runs and they also ran into prime LeBron.

By rule, coaches don't get blamed for losing a playoff series no one expected you to win. Upsets rarely happen in the NBA playoffs. 7 game series' don't really allow that to happen.

DLeethal wrote:Also, unless you are a coach of a dynasty team you probably have .500-ish record in the playoffs over a large sample. A .500 record is pretty good over the amount of games Thibs has coached. For example, Rick Carlisle, a championship coach with tons of playoff games under his belt, has a similar record to Thibs.

Carlisle is a good coach who bounced from team to team, in spite of his record. Because he was a tough old school coach in a league that was moving away from that style. He loosened up in Dallas, and got along better with his players. Helped the team buy-in and they won a chip'

Rosters matter of course, but so does coaching. If Thibs can also break from some old habits, like leaning too much on his starters, I believe he has a good shot of getting his own storybook ending.

GustavBahler wrote:

DLeethal wrote:Also, unless you are a coach of a dynasty team you probably have .500-ish record in the playoffs over a large sample. A .500 record is pretty good over the amount of games Thibs has coached. For example, Rick Carlisle, a championship coach with tons of playoff games under his belt, has a similar record to Thibs.

Carlisle is a good coach who bounced from team to team, in spite of his record. Because he was a tough old school coach in a league that was moving away from that style. He loosened up in Dallas, and got along better with his players. Helped the team buy-in and they won a chip'

Rosters matter of course, but so does coaching. If Thibs can also break from some old habits, like leaning too much on his starters, I believe he has a good shot of getting his own storybook ending.

He won a chip and besides that year, he's WAY under .500 in the playoffs during his Dallas tenure. My only point is, it's hard to have a winning record in the playoffs unless your coaching a dynasty team. Carlisle coached GREAT teams including a roster that won a chip after him in DET, the Dirk years, and a contender in Indiana and was under .500.

DLeethal wrote:

Nalod wrote:Carlisle first gig was in Detroit. Two seasons. winning % was .610.
Second season lost in ECF to Nets. High strung and lost the locker room. Larry Brown took over and the rest we know.
He goes to Indy and first year was 61-21! .744!! Lost to Detroit in ECF. ouch.
next season was Malice in the palace and the came undone. They had the team to compete vs. Detroit that year. If you saw the documentary, you know it all. Sad.
Until then Indy was contending. After that the roster was not the same. Until then Carlisle was elite without a chip.
First three years At dallas was: .610, ..671, and the chip year, .695 or 57 wins. They had Spurs, Suns and Lakers to contend with.
All this by the time he was 51. He had a rep but by that moment he was elite!
He is now 64 and some mediocrity teams dues to many things not in his control. 22 seasons as head coach.
Lets be real, Great coaches need great players to win chips and go deep.
Shit happens. His team in Minny year 1 had Lavine, Kat and Wiggins all 21 years old! Year to he brings in Jimmy who was aligned with Thibs and could not deal with the immaturity.
Blame game? Thibs was the exec and was bought in to work the kids. Bad hire by ownership.
Thibs history is what it is. He is doing a great job in NY.

Carlisle had elite teams but a playoff failure was the point. Until his one breakthrough in Dallas. Did anything change then in terms of his coaching? Thibs is similar, except has not coached the same number of quality teams that Carlisle did. One day Thibs might break through, or maybe he won't, but he's the same coach whether he does or doesn't. He's capable just like Carlisle was despite years of playoff failure for Carlisle.