martin wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

Panos wrote:

Nalod wrote:

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:5 years, 60m. Structure the contract as best fits the other contracts. I see a lot of undeveloped possibilities here that could make that contract earn out.

1) Hustle. Can;t get the image of him jumping through legs to tie up the loose ball. Dangerous but man that;s good hustle.

2) Rebounding. That;s only gonna get better here. He has real strength that allows him to get position on the block.

3) Wingspan. 6;8 height with a 7;0 wingspan. Hes got really good length for his position.

4) On Ball Defense. He has solid footwork and stays in front of his man pretty well. Generates steals with that wingspan.

5) Willingness to shoot. Ok. Shooting itself needs work. He could use some more coaching on form. But he is a willing shooter and finds the right places from the floor to shoot from. But this is something we can work with.

I;m a fan. I would sign him to a solid long term contract to get the benefits of his development.

I think this is fair.

Thats DDV money.
Im thinking 3 years 21-24 mil with team option year three.
Most likely im trading him at some point. Naz earned his big money, Precious can also.

iHart signed for two years, 16mil and had a better cred coming in. Bit of a templete for me.
Im not hating on him, just being real in my opinion.

If I am ;Thinking Anthony Randlolph;, then perhaps I am even more cautious?

This is more in line with my expectation.
I don't think he goes from a throw-in to $12m per year after 20 games

same. It's not that I'm against it, it' just that he didn't earn it yet

I think it's fair to ask if he's putting up hollow numbers because the team hasn't had much success with him getting those numbers

Don’t play the role of Mark Cuban negotiating with Brunson pre and then mid season.

What is the potential with Precious? How does he fit with team and coach and philosophy? Does he have a valuable role?

With a player like Precious you do have to project some, that’s just the spot the Knicks find themselves in.

And then if you don’t think he is worth closer to the MLE, know you will be going into a contract situation where you are not just having to discuss $ numbers with his agent, you are also putting yourself into a spot of also competing against every other team that may need the services of a 24yo PF who can play small ball 5, take your all NBA starters minutes for a month at a time and perform admirably, all the while owning an intriguing but under developed 3 point shot.

That’s not worth $10+M a year?

Meanwhile Precious is gonna be all “what does a brother have to do around here” 😅

The difference between an extra $2-3m per over 5 seasons when we are talking <2% of cap?

Nail on the head.

What he provides is already valuable and unique to the roster with some potential in some other areas of his game. Thus a combination of OG & Precious with their skill sets potentially gives you two hard to find pieces to have in your core for the 3/4 & 4/5.

Knicks can match any offer. So either a team will have to pay in full for his full potential an offer the Knicks would have to refuse. Which I doubt given the new cap climate. Or team will hesitate to even offer as Knicks will just match, but could also take their time to do so tying that team up.

Martin, I got my opinion and stated this. IM not trying to put forth stats and try to prove a case. I might be wrong. Its super fun to see how it all plays out.

True test to his value might be playing with a full roster and how he carries the second unit when randle is out, or can he start next to OG? Healthy/durablel randle will put him in only 15-20 min a game. What does one pay a guy like that? Are there others out there that might be a better value for the money?

What other teams will pay him more and for how long? Is he better off becoming. Reliable “Thibs” guy of guy and perhaps be sought out to round out rosters as a reliable dude or does he go to the highest bidder, not crack the starting line up and get buried again behind others? I don’t know what kind of dude he is or what his ego is driving him to.

For that matter, is Thibs happy with his practice acumen? Does he get it? Work hard? Is he growing? Does the staff think he has upside still? Or we just looking at the box score and his age and assume good things?

LIke I said, nothing here is bad. we needed a back up PF and not like any of us came up with Precious prior to the trade. All I knew about him was he was like every other Raptor on the team. 6-8, long arms and athletic.
Its been a good trade for this year. If my salary thoughts are wrong, Im wrong. Hope the kid pans out. I root for all our guys.
But I also know its a tough business and if we to get better we have to move on. And yes, Leon and Co. will make mistakes also. Some short term some fans will revel in, others will take years to realize. Its the nature of a tough business!

Nalod wrote:iHart had a good run with Clippers as a back up. They had no money to sign him.
He was a back up here and sucked his first two months here last year.
no doubt he has risen.
Precious has done well here in Thibs system and he obviously has submitted to a role.
The stats are nice but its a short sample. NBA players do what he is doing all the time. To compare him to Naz reid is a bit shortsighted. Naz proved himself over a long stretch. Precious might have had issues in Toronto and super happy he is doing his thing here.

Mark Cuban had that same reasoning with Brunson.

With some players and circumstances, you need to project. This is not a max contract type offer where more of the "prove to me" stage is already established.

There is an MLE market out there with lots of teams in play. Precious is either established well below that line, or he gets very close to that line cause of market dynamics.

SupremeCommander wrote:

martin wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

Panos wrote:

Nalod wrote:

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:5 years, 60m. Structure the contract as best fits the other contracts. I see a lot of undeveloped possibilities here that could make that contract earn out.

1) Hustle. Can;t get the image of him jumping through legs to tie up the loose ball. Dangerous but man that;s good hustle.

2) Rebounding. That;s only gonna get better here. He has real strength that allows him to get position on the block.

3) Wingspan. 6;8 height with a 7;0 wingspan. Hes got really good length for his position.

4) On Ball Defense. He has solid footwork and stays in front of his man pretty well. Generates steals with that wingspan.

5) Willingness to shoot. Ok. Shooting itself needs work. He could use some more coaching on form. But he is a willing shooter and finds the right places from the floor to shoot from. But this is something we can work with.

I;m a fan. I would sign him to a solid long term contract to get the benefits of his development.

I think this is fair.

Thats DDV money.
Im thinking 3 years 21-24 mil with team option year three.
Most likely im trading him at some point. Naz earned his big money, Precious can also.

iHart signed for two years, 16mil and had a better cred coming in. Bit of a templete for me.
Im not hating on him, just being real in my opinion.

If I am ;Thinking Anthony Randlolph;, then perhaps I am even more cautious?

This is more in line with my expectation.
I don't think he goes from a throw-in to $12m per year after 20 games

same. It's not that I'm against it, it' just that he didn't earn it yet

I think it's fair to ask if he's putting up hollow numbers because the team hasn't had much success with him getting those numbers

Don’t play the role of Mark Cuban negotiating with Brunson pre and then mid season.

What is the potential with Precious? How does he fit with team and coach and philosophy? Does he have a valuable role?

With a player like Precious you do have to project some, that’s just the spot the Knicks find themselves in.

And then if you don’t think he is worth closer to the MLE, know you will be going into a contract situation where you are not just having to discuss $ numbers with his agent, you are also putting yourself into a spot of also competing against every other team that may need the services of a 24yo PF who can play small ball 5, take your all NBA starters minutes for a month at a time and perform admirably, all the while owning an intriguing but under developed 3 point shot.

That’s not worth $10+M a year?

Meanwhile Precious is gonna be all “what does a brother have to do around here” 😅

The difference between an extra $2-3m per over 5 seasons when we are talking <2% of cap?

If it's 2-3 million, it's not my money, whatever, that said:

I don't think that's all he wants. Do you?

I also value or cap flexibility and I don't know, I guess I want to see him produce while winning games before locking into him longterm? That's not being pragmatic?

Let's take money out of the equation for a second. What has Precious actually accomplished here?

You have to look more so at his skill set. He is a 4/5 that can guard post to perimeter. Offers a guy who can be placed on faceup ball on the floor Siakam type of players to compliment IHart who is more of anchor in the paint. He does so without being so limited offensively that your playing 4 on 5 on offense. This combination already makes him a hard to find player. So if your just looking at basic numbers 8pts-7.5rebs-1blk in 26mins than sure that comes off as replaceable numbers that you don't want to over pay for. But that's not the whole scope.

If he were to get his 3pt shot respectable to go along with his game in and game out rebounding and defensive capabilities. Then you have yourself a high end piece at a position that not to many teams are have it at the 4. Just think about it. How many teams have a 4/5 that can guard post to perimeter who for arguments sake could also space the floor as well as rebound at the rate he can? And all he is really missing out of that is the consistent three point shot. If he had that he would be looking at money in the teens.

Combination of OG, Precious, IHart/Mitch offers a complete frontcourt Voltron defensively. Which is perfect around scorers like Brunson & Randle. There is a reason why we were beating the crap out of teams. You lock that in and mold that. Precious (& IHart for that matter) develop that 3. You get that defensive voltron with spacing for Brunson/Randle to go to work.

DLeethal wrote:

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:iHart had a good run with Clippers as a back up. They had no money to sign him.
He was a back up here and sucked his first two months here last year.
no doubt he has risen.
Precious has done well here in Thibs system and he obviously has submitted to a role.
The stats are nice but its a short sample. NBA players do what he is doing all the time. To compare him to Naz reid is a bit shortsighted. Naz proved himself over a long stretch. Precious might have had issues in Toronto and super happy he is doing his thing here.

Mark Cuban had that same reasoning with Brunson.

With some players and circumstances, you need to project. This is not a max contract type offer where more of the "prove to me" stage is already established.

There is an MLE market out there with lots of teams in play. Precious is either established well below that line, or he gets very close to that line cause of market dynamics.

I agree that Precious will be a hot commodity in the MLE market. I think he's proven his skillset can help A LOT of teams. Not many guys can play PF/C, switch-guard 5 positions, dominate the boards, score high % around the hoop and drain the occasional 3 pointer. Lots of teams would love to sign him for MLE money. I think we got to keep him if he wants to be here. As Randle ages you have a high quality backup that you can begin to platoon him with and also allows you to explore a variety of front court trades because of how he can slide in to numerous roles at the 4/5.

So he should be right? If you are on the other side of the coin OFFERING Precious the MLE, do you prioritize him? Cause he is restricted, and in that case, you are negotiating against yourself.

Nalod wrote:

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:iHart had a good run with Clippers as a back up. They had no money to sign him.
He was a back up here and sucked his first two months here last year.
no doubt he has risen.
Precious has done well here in Thibs system and he obviously has submitted to a role.
The stats are nice but its a short sample. NBA players do what he is doing all the time. To compare him to Naz reid is a bit shortsighted. Naz proved himself over a long stretch. Precious might have had issues in Toronto and super happy he is doing his thing here.

Martin, I got my opinion and stated this. IM not trying to put forth stats and try to prove a case. I might be wrong. Its super fun to see how it all plays out.

True test to his value might be playing with a full roster and how he carries the second unit when randle is out, or can he start next to OG? Healthy/durablel randle will put him in only 15-20 min a game. What does one pay a guy like that? Are there others out there that might be a better value for the money?

What other teams will pay him more and for how long? Is he better off becoming. Reliable “Thibs” guy of guy and perhaps be sought out to round out rosters as a reliable dude or does he go to the highest bidder, not crack the starting line up and get buried again behind others? I don’t know what kind of dude he is or what his ego is driving him to.

For that matter, is Thibs happy with his practice acumen? Does he get it? Work hard? Is he growing? Does the staff think he has upside still? Or we just looking at the box score and his age and assume good things?

LIke I said, nothing here is bad. we needed a back up PF and not like any of us came up with Precious prior to the trade. All I knew about him was he was like every other Raptor on the team. 6-8, long arms and athletic.
Its been a good trade for this year. If my salary thoughts are wrong, Im wrong. Hope the kid pans out. I root for all our guys.
But I also know its a tough business and if we to get better we have to move on. And yes, Leon and Co. will make mistakes also. Some short term some fans will revel in, others will take years to realize. Its the nature of a tough business!

Frankly, I am not asking you to prove anything, just asking to discuss how you came to your conclusion. This is not about right or wrong, I am interested in your thought process and how you came to your number.

That's how we get better at this.

I thought I did.

I thought about DDV 12.5mm and his history. Totally different player/position.
Then iHart and his situation prior.
Now, we can look at stats, and perhaps pull his per 36, or best 20 games and think of potential then.
Obviously ihart out performed this year big time. Last year, maybe not so much?
Im looking at qualifying offer, which is 6.5mm.
So Im "guesstimating" 7mil per.
So maybe its two years with a player option year three if he kicks ass and now proven at age 26 he can get paid. Maybe with another team?
Kind of like where DDV did with GS last year.

Good teams let players walk and bring in new ones. Fans can't see the future so its hard to let go of what's in front.
I knew RJ might get traded but after 4 years of rooting for him one becomes a fan. IQ was easier for me because I never saw him making 20mil and coming off the bench so it was logical he would get moved at some point.
I never saw OG in the same light as a raptor as I did once he got here and the team took off with him.
The ball moves so much better without IQ and RJ. I might have guessed this but not to the degree we saw in January!!!!

In Short, Im not attached to Precious nor value him as much as some might be.

DDV at $11M for total of $46M across 4 years and wildly underpaid? Or was he spot on for less than MLE production coming out of GS? I can' tell

Nalod wrote:

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:iHart had a good run with Clippers as a back up. They had no money to sign him.
He was a back up here and sucked his first two months here last year.
no doubt he has risen.
Precious has done well here in Thibs system and he obviously has submitted to a role.
The stats are nice but its a short sample. NBA players do what he is doing all the time. To compare him to Naz reid is a bit shortsighted. Naz proved himself over a long stretch. Precious might have had issues in Toronto and super happy he is doing his thing here.

Martin, I got my opinion and stated this. IM not trying to put forth stats and try to prove a case. I might be wrong. Its super fun to see how it all plays out.

True test to his value might be playing with a full roster and how he carries the second unit when randle is out, or can he start next to OG? Healthy/durablel randle will put him in only 15-20 min a game. What does one pay a guy like that? Are there others out there that might be a better value for the money?

What other teams will pay him more and for how long? Is he better off becoming. Reliable “Thibs” guy of guy and perhaps be sought out to round out rosters as a reliable dude or does he go to the highest bidder, not crack the starting line up and get buried again behind others? I don’t know what kind of dude he is or what his ego is driving him to.

For that matter, is Thibs happy with his practice acumen? Does he get it? Work hard? Is he growing? Does the staff think he has upside still? Or we just looking at the box score and his age and assume good things?

LIke I said, nothing here is bad. we needed a back up PF and not like any of us came up with Precious prior to the trade. All I knew about him was he was like every other Raptor on the team. 6-8, long arms and athletic.
Its been a good trade for this year. If my salary thoughts are wrong, Im wrong. Hope the kid pans out. I root for all our guys.
But I also know its a tough business and if we to get better we have to move on. And yes, Leon and Co. will make mistakes also. Some short term some fans will revel in, others will take years to realize. Its the nature of a tough business!

Frankly, I am not asking you to prove anything, just asking to discuss how you came to your conclusion. This is not about right or wrong, I am interested in your thought process and how you came to your number.

That's how we get better at this.

I thought I did.

I thought about DDV 12.5mm and his history. Totally different player/position.
Then iHart and his situation prior.
Now, we can look at stats, and perhaps pull his per 36, or best 20 games and think of potential then.
Obviously ihart out performed this year big time. Last year, maybe not so much?
Im looking at qualifying offer, which is 6.5mm.
So Im "guesstimating" 7mil per.
So maybe its two years with a player option year three if he kicks ass and now proven at age 26 he can get paid. Maybe with another team?
Kind of like where DDV did with GS last year.

Good teams let players walk and bring in new ones. Fans can't see the future so its hard to let go of what's in front.
I knew RJ might get traded but after 4 years of rooting for him one becomes a fan. IQ was easier for me because I never saw him making 20mil and coming off the bench so it was logical he would get moved at some point.
I never saw OG in the same light as a raptor as I did once he got here and the team took off with him.
The ball moves so much better without IQ and RJ. I might have guessed this but not to the degree we saw in January!!!!

In Short, Im not attached to Precious nor value him as much as some might be.

DDV at $11M for total of $46M across 4 years and wildly underpaid? Or was he spot on for less than MLE production coming out of GS? I can' tell

He is making more then double he did last year. This is his history: https://www.spotrac.com/nba/new-york-knicks/donte-divincenzo-26983/cash-earnings/
As a 17th over all pick he never made close to what he has. He will have made 64mmil by the time he is 30.
He did have an ACL tear.
He has missed a lot of games.
He played a high of 72 games last year!
He is for sure underpaid.
I'd say he has proven to be an incredible value thus far. There was a reason for his salary.

Feel that maybe DDV and iHart situations are completely different than the RFA status Precious will have going into free agency. Hard to really tie those 3 together as benchmarks for each other.

Maybe similar position and contract status? Grant Williams, Jarred Vanderbilt, Rui Hachimura, Onyeka Okongwu, Isaiah Stewart, Robert Wlliams more in line?

Nalod wrote:His per 36 might be interesting because he actually is playing that amount of late.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/achiupr01.html

does anything jump off the sheet? Some things are better, some things similar.
Im sticking with no more than 7mm per year.
The comps? Im not really into spending anymore time on this. All of those guys compared are very different to each other. Some of those guys are shooters, Some are defense guys. Okongwu, Williams and Steward are centers?

Not like this is the last PF back up we can get. Im enthralled by his play but he is not carrying the team. Not his fault, but was still are 1-4 the last 5 games. He had a few nice rebounding games. This is the NBA, he is an NBA player and should be able to do this. Qualifying offer is 6.5mm Then we can match anyone offer.
For all I know we don't do either.

I guess I am wonder what comp you are using to get $7mm for Precious. What player is most similar to Precious today that makes you think that $7mm is the correct benchmark?

1) Per36 look solid. His last 10 games are a small sample set for a player, but he has done pretty well.
2) His Hustle Stats are good. Over the last 10 games he is top 5 in the league in deflections. That's good effort. That includes leading the league in Contested 3s at 4.6 per game over the same 10 games as a starter.
3) Over the same 10 game span, he is top 10 in rebounding and top 15 in blocks.

For me, this is a player that is worth developing.

Rui Hachimura = 17mm per.
Jarred Vanderbilt = 12mm per.
Brandon Clarke = 12.5mm
Marvin Bagley - 12.5m

You cannot find me a comparable PF making less than 10mm. Pay the man his money. Not worth fighting over.

EwingsGlass wrote:

Nalod wrote:His per 36 might be interesting because he actually is playing that amount of late.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/achiupr01.html

does anything jump off the sheet? Some things are better, some things similar.
Im sticking with no more than 7mm per year.
The comps? Im not really into spending anymore time on this. All of those guys compared are very different to each other. Some of those guys are shooters, Some are defense guys. Okongwu, Williams and Steward are centers?

Not like this is the last PF back up we can get. Im enthralled by his play but he is not carrying the team. Not his fault, but was still are 1-4 the last 5 games. He had a few nice rebounding games. This is the NBA, he is an NBA player and should be able to do this. Qualifying offer is 6.5mm Then we can match anyone offer.
For all I know we don't do either.

I guess I am wonder what comp you are using to get $7mm for Precious. What player is most similar to Precious today that makes you think that $7mm is the correct benchmark?

1) Per36 look solid. His last 10 games are a small sample set for a player, but he has done pretty well.
2) His Hustle Stats are good. Over the last 10 games he is top 5 in the league in deflections. That's good effort. That includes leading the league in Contested 3s at 4.6 per game over the same 10 games as a starter.
3) Over the same 10 game span, he is top 10 in rebounding and top 15 in blocks.

For me, this is a player that is worth developing.

Rui Hachimura = 17mm per.
Jarred Vanderbilt = 12mm per.
Brandon Clarke = 12.5mm
Marvin Bagley - 12.5m

You cannot find me a comparable PF making less than 10mm. Pay the man his money. Not worth fighting over.

LOL, Not my money!
I hope he earns all of it an then some! I trust this FO.