Chandler wrote:

martin wrote:

Chandler wrote:Could definitely endorse this except for Simmons. Since day 1 guy has been a mental case. NYC is the worst place for him

Yeah, you right.

Quite frankly, Simmons inclusion was just an excuse for me to put everything else forward. I'd agree his is not a good idea and no way would the FO actually do it.

But the concept is fun.

chemistry is key; Donovan wants to be here. We need some swagger and clutch play. Coming into the league the notion was he would be good on D but you'd need to be patient for his offense to emerge. Well... we need to find that D again to get him up a level

Realistically I don’t watch much of Donovan.

Is he much worse than DDV?

newyorknewyork wrote:

martin wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

martin wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:The cold hard truth is if Cavs were willing to deal because Spida says he's going to bolt as a FA. Odds are very high that they are gonna want Donte and probably Hart as well.

Something like Donte, Hart, Fournier and multiple 1st for Spida and Strus.

Donte per 36mins is at 18.7pts, 5.0rebs, 3.6ast, 1.7stls on 45.7/41.8/72.4% at 27 yrs of age making $11mil per.

As for Simmons, I'm only willing to take him back in order to secure Mikal. With the idea that we only hold him for the one season and then move forward with the Brunson/Mikal/OG/Randle fantastic 4 for the next 5years. Prefer a backup big that can stretch the floor so Randle could have stretches to work with optimal spacing.

They can want whatever they want. NY would never do that deal. So it's a deal breaker.

And if NY would never do that deal, then Cleveland is facing the very real prospect of pissing Donovan off and when this Summer comes around, Donovan can demand whatever the F he wants, cause Donovan will have a vice grip on his next destination, just like Pascal did.

So, what Cleveland wants, that's limited to picks and a bit more in this particular scenario and circumstance.

When you are negotiating a deal, you never operate in a silo of your own wants. If you do this, you more than likely fail. It's about what you want and what everyone else wants and how those things come together.

That is leverage and how it works.

Problem is that with the Knicks not able to sign him as a FA and only able to land him via trade. And the teams with cap space to sign him will most likely be lottery teams. And the Cavs being able to offer him more money than anyone else. If his options are less money on a lotto team or resign for max money on the Cavs, they are very much in play. If he doesn't want to play for the Cavs. Cavs can say we can get you your full pay in a S&T. And there will be a team (there always is) like say Orlando Magic that then offer something like Franz, Suggs, Black & draft capital etc.

Look at it differently.

Sixers have a **** ton of cap space. Another good playoff team that Donovan can leverage to scare the living daylights out of Cleveland FO will be out there HELLO OKC. It's a real possibility. All Donovan has to do is go on exactly 1 Podcast and wax on about how he would love to play next to SGA and would take less than the max to sign with OKC after his contract is up. DONE.

So, if you are Cleveland FO, do you risk putting yourself in that position getting exactly nothing in return for Donovan (you get fired and never get an NBA job again), or you get a much less return on a deal ala Pascal Siakam (and you still get fired cause you just moved the guy you went all in on and now are selling for much less than you bought for), or do you try to save face and get the best guaranteed return and do all you can to try to make it look like NY did an overpay or at least an adult trade (bird in hand scenario)?

OKC is Donovan's leverage. So are the Spurs and a different podcast talking about playing with Wemby.

While I agree with the play Spida could use to scare Cavs. Cavs will feel that DDV & Hart are reasonable players to ask for in comparison to what they are giving up. Knicks claim that they are untouchable in the deal. Cavs then leak that Knicks aren't willing to give up DDV & Hart to land Spida. Spida now thinking to himself Knicks aren't willing to give up role players to secure me? TF

But hey I could be completely wrong and they don't even value DDV like that. Or a 3rd team is added in the picture who is willing to take the draft capital while the Cavs get back a more proven commodity like Simmons from Portland.

I will kindly disagree with you on your assumption there.

If Cleveland FO are complete idiots, they will think that maybe the Knicks will give up Josh and DDV. But the Cleveland FO are not complete idiots cause no one in their right mind thinks the Knicks would give up 2 of Brunson’s best gal pals in a move for Donovan when the Knicks could much more easily pursue a different trade avenue SO THEY DONT PISS BRUNSON OFF.

Cleveland FO people are not idiots, they would not ask for Hart, DDV cause they know the answer. Or Leon will just hang up. And they already know that and then you back to square 1. No one wants to be left on square 1.

Remember, do not be left in the silo of your own wants, cause you will fail to make a deal. Leverage yada yada

Let me put this into a real world analogy. If you want to do butt stuff with your partner, and you already know your partner is an emphatic NO on that, you may think that asking (and continually asking) is a good step to take, but it’s not, mostly you are just being an idiot. You will make it so that your partner hangs up the proverbial phone and eventually your partner will move on from you to another person who does not ask and insist on butt stuff. Cleveland FO is left with 2 choices: ask for something else or find a new partner. It’s not always what you want but what you can get or think you can reasonably get. So keep asking for all the sloppiest blowjobs (picks) you love and know she loves (is willing to give up) too.

Negotiation 202, Wants and Needs.

newyorknewyork wrote:

martin wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

martin wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

martin wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:The cold hard truth is if Cavs were willing to deal because Spida says he's going to bolt as a FA. Odds are very high that they are gonna want Donte and probably Hart as well.

Something like Donte, Hart, Fournier and multiple 1st for Spida and Strus.

Donte per 36mins is at 18.7pts, 5.0rebs, 3.6ast, 1.7stls on 45.7/41.8/72.4% at 27 yrs of age making $11mil per.

As for Simmons, I'm only willing to take him back in order to secure Mikal. With the idea that we only hold him for the one season and then move forward with the Brunson/Mikal/OG/Randle fantastic 4 for the next 5years. Prefer a backup big that can stretch the floor so Randle could have stretches to work with optimal spacing.

They can want whatever they want. NY would never do that deal. So it's a deal breaker.

And if NY would never do that deal, then Cleveland is facing the very real prospect of pissing Donovan off and when this Summer comes around, Donovan can demand whatever the F he wants, cause Donovan will have a vice grip on his next destination, just like Pascal did.

So, what Cleveland wants, that's limited to picks and a bit more in this particular scenario and circumstance.

When you are negotiating a deal, you never operate in a silo of your own wants. If you do this, you more than likely fail. It's about what you want and what everyone else wants and how those things come together.

That is leverage and how it works.

Problem is that with the Knicks not able to sign him as a FA and only able to land him via trade. And the teams with cap space to sign him will most likely be lottery teams. And the Cavs being able to offer him more money than anyone else. If his options are less money on a lotto team or resign for max money on the Cavs, they are very much in play. If he doesn't want to play for the Cavs. Cavs can say we can get you your full pay in a S&T. And there will be a team (there always is) like say Orlando Magic that then offer something like Franz, Suggs, Black & draft capital etc.

Look at it differently.

Sixers have a **** ton of cap space. Another good playoff team that Donovan can leverage to scare the living daylights out of Cleveland FO will be out there HELLO OKC. It's a real possibility. All Donovan has to do is go on exactly 1 Podcast and wax on about how he would love to play next to SGA and would take less than the max to sign with OKC after his contract is up. DONE.

So, if you are Cleveland FO, do you risk putting yourself in that position getting exactly nothing in return for Donovan (you get fired and never get an NBA job again), or you get a much less return on a deal ala Pascal Siakam (and you still get fired cause you just moved the guy you went all in on and now are selling for much less than you bought for), or do you try to save face and get the best guaranteed return and do all you can to try to make it look like NY did an overpay or at least an adult trade (bird in hand scenario)?

OKC is Donovan's leverage. So are the Spurs and a different podcast talking about playing with Wemby.

While I agree with the play Spida could use to scare Cavs. Cavs will feel that DDV & Hart are reasonable players to ask for in comparison to what they are giving up. Knicks claim that they are untouchable in the deal. Cavs then leak that Knicks aren't willing to give up DDV & Hart to land Spida. Spida now thinking to himself Knicks aren't willing to give up role players to secure me? TF

But hey I could be completely wrong and they don't even value DDV like that. Or a 3rd team is added in the picture who is willing to take the draft capital while the Cavs get back a more proven commodity like Simmons from Portland.

I will kindly disagree with you on your assumption there.

If Cleveland FO are complete idiots, they will think that maybe the Knicks will give up Josh and DDV. But the Cleveland FO are not complete idiots cause no one in their right mind thinks the Knicks would give up 2 of Brunson’s best gal pals in a move for Donovan when the Knicks could much more easily pursue a different trade avenue SO THEY DONT PISS BRUNSON OFF.

Cleveland FO people are not idiots, they would not ask for Hart, DDV cause they know the answer. Or Leon will just hang up. And they already know that and then you back to square 1. No one wants to be left on square 1.

Remember, do not be left in the silo of your own wants, cause you will fail to make a deal. Leverage yada yada

Let me put this into a real world analogy. If you want to do butt stuff with your partner, and you already know your partner is an emphatic NO on that, you may think that asking (and continually asking) is a good step to take, but it’s not, mostly you are just being an idiot. You will make it so that your partner hangs up the proverbial phone and eventually your partner will move on from you to another person who does not ask and insist on butt stuff.

Negotiation 202, Wants and Needs.

Thing is I don't see draft capital as what Cleveland would care for given where they are at. Knicks would be getting everything we want while Cleveland gets the butt stuff done to them with no lube. The remedy to cover the needs and wants of all parties would be to find that 3rd team. One who that is looking for the draft capital who has the proven player that Cavs would covet the more than draft capital. DDV & Hart were brought up because they somewhat fit that mold within the Knicks roster. Which is why Simmons from Portland was brought up as a possibility. Grimes and 2-3 picks to Portland or something. Simmons and 2 picks to Cleveland. Knicks get Spida. With Sharpe on deck at SG and them not going anywhere they may be interested.

I’ve already outlined Cleveland’s position when summer hits.

Donovan will be in the drivers seat and then you (Cleveland FO) are left with the Pascal Siakam situation.

Or worse, Donovan walks to OKC later on.

You are not accounting for those 2 things. Diminishing returns. And being left with your dick in your hands (OKC) or some skanky toothless ho (Pascal)

martin wrote:Come with me to the dark side yall. And let's get the Donovan vibes going.

Really do feel that ship has sailed. Especially with the OG trade.

The truth is that DM will stay with the Cavs.
Not like he is on the Nets or Wizards
Why leave when they have a solid team? One that will be better when injuries subside.
DM also may have a little to prove after all the talk of how the Knicks beat him.
I see no reason for him to push things now.
If he wants to stay in Cleveland, he will sign a max extension prior to next season.
Specially if the Cavs make some real noise.
If he wants to play in NY because he, like so many NY fans, feel he is not complete unless he plays in the "MECCA", then he refuses extension then waits to eventually ends up in NY after 24-25 season. Don't think its worth it for the Knicks to give up many assets instead of waiting one more year. (Because it's gonna take a lot more than just Grimes, EF and picks. Grimes has lost a lot of value.)

Secondly, Knicks will have several decisions this summer. What will OG make? What will IHart cost?
Add DM to 24-25 salary and we basically are going for it in 24/25.
Especially since there is no way we can pay JR, JB, OG and DM in 2025-26.

Would love to have DM. But waiting seems to make sense for both sides.

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:Come with me to the dark side yall. And let's get the Donovan vibes going.

Really do feel that ship has sailed.

blkexec wrote:I believe Mikal Bridges is the missing champioahip piece.

HofstraBBall wrote:

blkexec wrote:I believe Mikal Bridges is the missing champioahip piece. Give them all the damn picks, I don’t care. Mikal gives our 30 and under team a nice big window to win a chip. Majority of these picks are protected except our own. D.Mitchel is the better offensive player but Mikal is the better 2 way player that fits Thibs defensive scheme. 2 unprotected (our own picks) and 3 protected picks from Dallas, bucks, etc..)

The way DDV is playing right now, along with our big 3, what will D. Mitch add that we don’t already have in JB the closer and Bully Ball Randle? Along with OG the matrix.

Who’s the better defender DDV or D.Mitch? DDV
Who’s the better 3 pt shooter / floor spacer? DDV
Who’s not a ball hog or black hole? DDV

At this point, be very careful adding a ball dominant guard who only impacts the game when the ball is in his hands. Let’s not repeat the RJ and IQ situation again.

Bridges better than DM? Nah
What has he done exactly?
DM been doing elite stuff for years.
Bridges would not fit here with JB and Randle. Another RJ situation.
Guy was a role player before having unlimited shots with a terrible Nets team.

Much rather have Devo.
Devo fits better with Randle and JB.
Fortunately FO knows how to put a team together.
Have an aggressive PG with a phenomenal mid game.
A beast who can be your muscle.
A defensive force who can hit corner threes when defenses help on 1 and 1A.
A defensive .indeed C to keep players from easy access to rim.
And a cold killer who can hit long threes and create off ball rotation.

We do not need another scorer.
We need a 6th man (Clarkson?)and solid back up PF.
Precious there in defense but we may need someone who can do a bit more on offense.
Portis type comes to mind. John Collins?

D.Mitchel is the better offensive player but Mikal is the better 2 way player that fits Thibs defensive scheme.

If you think D.Mitch is a better 2 way defender, then we just disagree on that.

I do agree that ship has sailed but for different reasons.

EwingsGlass wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

blkexec wrote:I believe Mikal Bridges is the missing champioahip piece. Give them all the damn picks, I don’t care. Mikal gives our 30 and under team a nice big window to win a chip. Majority of these picks are protected except our own. D.Mitchel is the better offensive player but Mikal is the better 2 way player that fits Thibs defensive scheme. 2 unprotected (our own picks) and 3 protected picks from Dallas, bucks, etc..)

The way DDV is playing right now, along with our big 3, what will D. Mitch add that we don’t already have in JB the closer and Bully Ball Randle? Along with OG the matrix.

Who’s the better defender DDV or D.Mitch? DDV
Who’s the better 3 pt shooter / floor spacer? DDV
Who’s not a ball hog or black hole? DDV

At this point, be very careful adding a ball dominant guard who only impacts the game when the ball is in his hands. Let’s not repeat the RJ and IQ situation again.

Bridges better than DM? Nah
What has he done exactly?
DM been doing elite stuff for years.
Bridges would not fit here with JB and Randle. Another RJ situation.
Guy was a role player before having unlimited shots with a terrible Nets team.

Much rather have Devo.
Devo fits better with Randle and JB.
Fortunately FO knows how to put a team together.
Have an aggressive PG with a phenomenal mid game.
A beast who can be your muscle.
A defensive force who can hit corner threes when defenses help on 1 and 1A.
A defensive .indeed C to keep players from easy access to rim.
And a cold killer who can hit long threes and create off ball rotation.

We do not need another scorer.
We need a 6th man (Clarkson?)and solid back up PF.
Precious there in defense but we may need someone who can do a bit more on offense.
Portis type comes to mind. John Collins?

Pleading insanity? Without disparaging Devo, Bridges gives you positional size and length on the perimeter. 7 foot wingspans at the wing is becoming the benchmark. If anything, Bridges’ highest value was as a 3&D and his eFG and TS have dropped significantly as the primary scorer. His defense is elite though and a second lock down on ball defender on the wing would push this team to elite. Devo is a great teammate and we have been great with him on the floor. I want him with a significant role here, but Mikal Bridges + OG is on par with Leonard and George. Except guys that are entering their prime. Oooh. What I wouldn’t do for that pairing.

Some good points.
My point was that Bridges would not be more impactful or a better fit, for THIS current team, than DM would be. I Watch a lot of NBA, and Bridges is no DM. DM gets all the focus from defenses nightly and has still put up numbers for many years.
Bridges putting up most of his points when Nets are losing big and no one really cares.
Is he better than Devo?, maybe.
But my response was that Devo fits better with JB and JR. Imo
Would Bridges bring some solid defense and good shooting? Agreed, but to give up
the same amount of assets needed to acquire a DM level player, would be a mistake.

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:I do think Mitchell could be the final piece. Mitchell, Brunson and Randle surrounded by elite defense and shooting.

That's it in a nut shell.

And it's kinda sorta attainable, right? It's not pie in the sky Knicks are trying to create cap space for Durant and friends level stuff.

Still incredibly hard but the vision is also not unrealistic.

Knicks biggest problem is the Cavs may demand DiVincenzo in any Mitchell deal. He’s headed towards almost untouchable when you consider the shooting, defense and perfect chemistry with our best players. But yes it’s realistic to be confident that Mitchell is the last piece if the rest of the rotation isn’t too disrupted. It has to be all picks going out in the deal. If Mitchell comes in, I still want DDV and hart here, coming off the bench.

He fit even before the OG trade and is even better fit now. Knicks would be a great team with him and a legit contender.

gradyandrew wrote:I want to see the 10 man rotation of:
Brunson/ Deuce
DDV/ Grimes
OG/ Hart
Randle/ Precious
MRob/ iHart

before I make any moves. That squad above looks solid and should be able to handle lots of different looks on defense and offense. Seeing how far we can go will give a better idea of where we need to go. I'm also thinking that behind that crew.will be some space for rookies to develop. Late 1st round picks are.really cost effective ways of developing a player.

Agreed. Not a terrible strategy. But hard to argue with

JB/Deuce
DM/Devo
OG/Hart
Randle/Precious
MR/IHart

HofstraBBall wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:I want to see the 10 man rotation of:
Brunson/ Deuce
DDV/ Grimes
OG/ Hart
Randle/ Precious
MRob/ iHart

before I make any moves. That squad above looks solid and should be able to handle lots of different looks on defense and offense. Seeing how far we can go will give a better idea of where we need to go. I'm also thinking that behind that crew.will be some space for rookies to develop. Late 1st round picks are.really cost effective ways of developing a player.

Agreed. Not a terrible strategy. But hard to argue with

JB/Deuce
DM/Devo
OG/Hart
Randle/Precious
MR/IHart

That is a championship quality team.