Nalod wrote:Nalod gonna say somethings so don’t jump too soon. Before I show any Simmons love lets just say Josh Hart is a better player than Simmons……..But if you put Harts “Heart and Soul” into SImmons long body that would be one hell of a player.

Obscene as this will sound: Simmons does not get enough cred for having the defensive chops. Good defenders are not soft are they? Frankie is seen like that except by the fans that prayed for him. I did. Simmons is offensively soft which is rare.
Could he be a Thib’s kind of player though? Not on this roster as we have Josh Hart so Im not plugging and playing here on this.
His contract for next year is 40mil. Whats nuts is if we consider evan an asset with an 18mil deal, what does that contract do for you? Wow!!! Endless starphuch trade scenarios I would imagine on the UltimateNets site!!!

If he was a free agent and wanted to resurrect his career he could be a Thibs player. He has defensive chops, passes very well and can rebound. He has the skills. Does he have the “Moxie”, or mental fortitude? If being a GM is about making moves that prove well going forward then you can’t simply say “looking backwards he has been ****”. Its undeniable and easy the worst contract in the NBA since he did not dunk.

“If he wants to resurrect his career” has a lot of parts to it. Naturally his back issues would need to be past him and some good orthopedic pro’s would have to sign off on his potential to stay on the court.

Say knicks pass on him, does the Heat look at him? You know, he goes in to the vacuum of a culture and holds him to a high standard? Knick culture is kind of like this now. Thibs might not be well liked but he gets you paid and if you earn it he is loyal as **** to that player. Is that won wrong? If Spo wanted Ben Simmons it would change the narrative until he proved it on the court. If it was today he’d have to play with Jimmy Butler. Wilt under that and you might as well release him. Rise up? You have a hell of a player.

Ben Simmons won’t be a knick under his current contract. I would not take him to secure bridges becasue It has to **** up the cap somthing awful and I don’t see Bridges as that kind of star. The money makes no sense.
Ben Simmons has to prove somewhat durable for the duration of his contract then demonstrate on the court what made him an allstar. Fans don’t like him. He has to earn it back.

I get your thinking and love Ben off bench for the Knicks as a small ball handling 5 with the bench crew going on.

And imagine this scenario. Cause I have a dream!!!

Knicks move to somehow get Donovan Mitchell. Donovan will obviously need to push for this but I don't think there is much doubt that he would. Eventually and very quietly, ie. during 2024 draft or this summer: it's why all the Woj and Shams is hinting at Knicks doing upcoming big move after season is over, they know the player possibility with Donovan, he keeps chirping about New York. Cause do you think he CAN'T see himself in the DDV starting spot? He can do exactly that role and then fill exactly what Brunson does when Brunson is not of the floor. This is the last problem the Knicks need to solve, bench unit ball handling, and why not do it with a Brunson duplicate in Mitchell?!?! Mitchell would know that Brunson and he could SHARE the spotlight. Donovan has got to want that. Badly.

Mitchell is doing good work over there in Cleveland, carrying that team that has had its share of player injuries (Mobley, Garland). Hopefully Cavs FO told Donovan that they will move him but he needs to BALL OUT and stay quiet about a trade request to also keep his value in a good spot for THEM, Cleveland FO can't look like fools in trading him without a GREAT return to save face in moving him to NY. Win-win-win. Cleveland will extract a LOT from NY if they keeps their wits about them. Maybe they even get Brock Aller back in the trade, who knows. And I'm legit not kidding. Cleveland should ask that he needs to be let go from his contact as a part of this transaction. NY should be OK with this. Win-win-win.

To trade for Donovan, you need Fournier, Grimes and all the picks and filler salary. Knicks do not have adequate filler salary right now. Except for Mitch.

Mitch, Grimes, Fournier, all the picks gets your Donovan. Mitch would need to be moved to a 3rd team - Pelicans, do him a solid and send him home - cause he doesn't make any sense with Cleveland but Grimes absolutely makes perfect sense next to Garland (although Grimes, help a Knicks fan out and start hitting all your shots man! Up your trade value already!!!).

Ben, after he finishes out his current contract that no team can realistically take on at his level without all the cap space or similar dump contracts, would be AWESOME as the second ball-handling role as iHart at the top of the key for the bench unit. He would have to take MLE or vet min for season 2025-26 unless there is a buyout scenario this 2024 summer (and he should take it and move to team that'll up HIS value and god dammit 15 minutes off Knicks bench should do that and be good for your back man!).

Starters: Brunson, Donovan, OG, Randle, iHart.

Bench: McBride, DDV, Hart, Precious, Ben Simmons, Jacob Toppin, Jericho. Second unit crew would realistically be McBride, Donovan, DDV, Hart, Precious/Ben depending on opponent and whatnot.

Ben Simmons is a luxury and not a necessity in this scenario. You find an additional 3-5 backup centers and PFs for Thibs to mess with cause you know he wants that.

That is a stout rotation for a ton of reasons. Brunson and Mitchell are your engines and they are the same player so the offensive and defensive schemes are the same/similar for both of those guys, give or take. Randle is your work horse player and he has proven in this role; take ball out of his hands as the primary guy, and he turns from Spinover Randle to Joyful JuJu throwing dodge ball passes everywhere (he will injure a fan in the next year).

I think this is the most probable long term path the Knicks FO will take. Maybe. If it's possible. Mikal is just harder being on Brooklyn although probably a more ideal player and role to trade for.

But it starts with Donovan being an Earth mover in the same way OG created his path (or had it created for him) to the Knicks.

If Mikal thinks he fits next to Brunson better than Donovan, he has got to move heaven and earth to beat Donovan to the spot.

I think the Knicks would be smart to lay out the realities to both Donovan and Mikal behind the scenes (NO TAMPERING just hire everyone's Dad to be an assistant coach or get players to sign with CAA) and see what happens.

This is how I would set things up to leverage situations.

Who does that? Nobody.

I say BKN cuz Clev needs a market and DM could be cool with it. I know BKN has yet to put its stamp on the city but someone will do it eventually. DM to Nets is very important to them. They could use Bridges.

DM to knicks? Very Fun....

Nalod wrote:

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:Do we still have in the CBA the stretch provision? Stretch the 40mil out?
How would Simmons look in that role on Cleveland if they can swing a deal with them?
DM can do the "im not signing with you, its nice here but its ****ing still Cleveland!".
They say "fine", you gonna not sign with Miami? Any LA team? Play for pop and the next great thing and go to HOF?
He says "NY or free agency, I'll do it, take the risk"......Like Blow your knee out and sit for a year?

Who does that? Nobody.

I say BKN cuz Clev needs a market and DM could be cool with it. I know BKN has yet to put its stamp on the city but someone will do it eventually. DM to Nets is very important to them. They could use Bridges.

DM to knicks? Very Fun....

Ben's contract is $38M this year and $40M next year. When this season ends, why do you need to stretch his contract at all?

It's a buyout situation because it would be the last year of Ben's deal.

WIth his earning capacity severely damanged I doubt he takes a buy out.
If there is no trade with his salary so high then stretch? Its more a question than a solution. We so rarely see buy outs let alone stretch.

Why do you think this?

Ben will be fighting for his NEXT contract. What environment is best for him to do so?

Being on a suck ass Nets team? Or perfect 15 minutes bench role on a team that is going places?

The assumption is that Ben would be able to recoup the buyout amount, cause why wouldn't he.

Something like Donte, Hart, Fournier and multiple 1st for Spida and Strus.

Donte per 36mins is at 18.7pts, 5.0rebs, 3.6ast, 1.7stls on 45.7/41.8/72.4% at 27 yrs of age making $11mil per.

As for Simmons, I'm only willing to take him back in order to secure Mikal. With the idea that we only hold him for the one season and then move forward with the Brunson/Mikal/OG/Randle fantastic 4 for the next 5years. Prefer a backup big that can stretch the floor so Randle could have stretches to work with optimal spacing.

Is that true? If yes - could be an issue.

While his really good play is concerning because he may like Cleveland long-term maybe it’s possible he is wanting to put together a great year so Knicks come for him.

I mean how many games does someone have to miss and or sit out in street clothes before you say - nah no thanks?

I’ll pass on Ben Simmons.

martin wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:The cold hard truth is if Cavs were willing to deal because Spida says he's going to bolt as a FA. Odds are very high that they are gonna want Donte and probably Hart as well.

Something like Donte, Hart, Fournier and multiple 1st for Spida and Strus.

Donte per 36mins is at 18.7pts, 5.0rebs, 3.6ast, 1.7stls on 45.7/41.8/72.4% at 27 yrs of age making $11mil per.

As for Simmons, I'm only willing to take him back in order to secure Mikal. With the idea that we only hold him for the one season and then move forward with the Brunson/Mikal/OG/Randle fantastic 4 for the next 5years. Prefer a backup big that can stretch the floor so Randle could have stretches to work with optimal spacing.

They can want whatever they want. NY would never do that deal. So it's a deal breaker.

And if NY would never do that deal, then Cleveland is facing the very real prospect of pissing Donovan off and when this Summer comes around, Donovan can demand whatever the F he wants, cause Donovan will have a vice grip on his next destination, just like Pascal did.

So, what Cleveland wants, that's limited to picks and a bit more in this particular scenario and circumstance.

When you are negotiating a deal, you never operate in a silo of your own wants. If you do this, you more than likely fail. It's about what you want and what everyone else wants and how those things come together.

That is leverage and how it works.

Problem is that with the Knicks not able to sign him as a FA and only able to land him via trade. And the teams with cap space to sign him will most likely be lottery teams. And the Cavs being able to offer him more money than anyone else. If his options are less money on a lotto team or resign for max money on the Cavs, they are very much in play. If he doesn't want to play for the Cavs. Cavs can say we can get you your full pay in a S&T. And there will be a team (there always is) like say Orlando Magic that then offer something like Franz, Suggs, Black & draft capital etc.

martin wrote:

Chandler wrote:Could definitely endorse this except for Simmons. Since day 1 guy has been a mental case. NYC is the worst place for him

Yeah, you right.

Quite frankly, Simmons inclusion was just an excuse for me to put everything else forward. I'd agree his is not a good idea and no way would the FO actually do it.

But the concept is fun.

chemistry is key; Donovan wants to be here. We need some swagger and clutch play. Coming into the league the notion was he would be good on D but you'd need to be patient for his offense to emerge. Well... we need to find that D again to get him up a level

martin wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

martin wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:The cold hard truth is if Cavs were willing to deal because Spida says he's going to bolt as a FA. Odds are very high that they are gonna want Donte and probably Hart as well.

Something like Donte, Hart, Fournier and multiple 1st for Spida and Strus.

Donte per 36mins is at 18.7pts, 5.0rebs, 3.6ast, 1.7stls on 45.7/41.8/72.4% at 27 yrs of age making $11mil per.

As for Simmons, I'm only willing to take him back in order to secure Mikal. With the idea that we only hold him for the one season and then move forward with the Brunson/Mikal/OG/Randle fantastic 4 for the next 5years. Prefer a backup big that can stretch the floor so Randle could have stretches to work with optimal spacing.

They can want whatever they want. NY would never do that deal. So it's a deal breaker.

And if NY would never do that deal, then Cleveland is facing the very real prospect of pissing Donovan off and when this Summer comes around, Donovan can demand whatever the F he wants, cause Donovan will have a vice grip on his next destination, just like Pascal did.

So, what Cleveland wants, that's limited to picks and a bit more in this particular scenario and circumstance.

When you are negotiating a deal, you never operate in a silo of your own wants. If you do this, you more than likely fail. It's about what you want and what everyone else wants and how those things come together.

That is leverage and how it works.

Problem is that with the Knicks not able to sign him as a FA and only able to land him via trade. And the teams with cap space to sign him will most likely be lottery teams. And the Cavs being able to offer him more money than anyone else. If his options are less money on a lotto team or resign for max money on the Cavs, they are very much in play. If he doesn't want to play for the Cavs. Cavs can say we can get you your full pay in a S&T. And there will be a team (there always is) like say Orlando Magic that then offer something like Franz, Suggs, Black & draft capital etc.

Look at it differently.

Sixers have a **** ton of cap space. Another good playoff team that Donovan can leverage to scare the living daylights out of Cleveland FO will be out there HELLO OKC. It's a real possibility. All Donovan has to do is go on exactly 1 Podcast and wax on about how he would love to play next to SGA and would take less than the max to sign with OKC after his contract is up. DONE.

So, if you are Cleveland FO, do you risk putting yourself in that position getting exactly nothing in return for Donovan (you get fired and never get an NBA job again), or you get a much less return on a deal ala Pascal Siakam (and you still get fired cause you just moved the guy you went all in on and now are selling for much less than you bought for), or do you try to save face and get the best guaranteed return and do all you can to try to make it look like NY did an overpay or at least an adult trade (bird in hand scenario)?

OKC is Donovan's leverage. So are the Spurs and a different podcast talking about playing with Wemby.

While I agree with the play Spida could use to scare Cavs. Cavs will feel that DDV & Hart are reasonable players to ask for in comparison to what they are giving up. Knicks claim that they are untouchable in the deal. Cavs then leak that Knicks aren't willing to give up DDV & Hart to land Spida. Spida now thinking to himself Knicks aren't willing to give up role players to secure me? TF

But hey I could be completely wrong and they don't even value DDV like that. Or a 3rd team is added in the picture who is willing to take the draft capital while the Cavs get back a more proven commodity like Simmons from Portland.