This trade hurts the fans because for most of us IQ or RJ were very well received by us. "Home grown" after an long era of few rookies we really liked these guys. RJ "born for this" and IQ was the underdog. Both succeeding but both uneven in different ways. For all of IQ's streaks of shooting us back in games there were many were he didn't and was not playmaking to get the PG gig. Perhaps when he was able, JB was here. If true that IQ wanted JB money then his knick days were numbered.

For fans, we want upgrades and instant star additions?
This trade yesterday might be about giving space for Grimes to get more minutes to gain his mojo back?
DDV taking his normal role off the bench for energy and pts.

Long term, there is plan we don't know as it has yet to unfold which is more about keeping opportunities open. If we don't move on from players the ceiling via player talent, money, and draft picks open up. Most of us never saw this team as a top tier contender but had hoped we'd be a 3-4th seed.

At some point the team has given up on RJ being the man. I assume there is an issue with compatibility with Randle and with JB now firmly ensconced as the new star of the team his touches as a starter/finisher were limited. His play with the second unit was very telling to his potential and I expect he should be fine in Toronto once Siakim is moved. I suspect they have similar compatibility with Barnes and him.

IQ trade is what happens when good teams need to get better and in this age of parity wants to get paid. There will be suiters for him. He exceeded his draft status and credit to FO for him and Mitch in this area. We and 13 other teams missed on Halliburton in the weird Covid draft that I believe we took what we thought was a safe pick in Obi at a time Randle had yet to establish his true value. In a way it worked, Obi is an NBA player with varied skills in scoring but has not developed his defensive chops. He was an older player when drafted as well. National player of the year! Teams were hampered as play stopped in March and the draft was held in October just two weeks before the next season started. Teams could not see Halliburton up close. That draft was not normal. Context matters. IQ proved to be a good pick for us.

This FO has moved on from Frank, Knox, Obi, RJ, and IQ. Have to say if the team succeeds and we become fond of the new guys it all works itself out even if RJ and IQ excel. Today we don't know and it's hard to move on. Its why some hate the trade.

In terms of RJ, that was easy. Knicks knew they needed a better outside shooter and a better defender at the SF spot. Agree with both wholeheartedly. Sure I would have liked for RJ to become the player we all hoped he could be, but how long is enough?

My concern is that we are usually a step behind. Loading ones team with a bunch of three and D players may now be taken over by having 5 quick athletic players who can really shoot the three. Which is exactly what IQ is. Have mentioned in the past that one of the complaints regarding Thibs, that has some weight, is that he is an old school coach. Loves those bigger defenders regardless of what they do on offense. OG may be in that mold but losing IQ, who fit that so well hurts.

Definitely ike that we got better defensively at SF. With a better shooter. Just hate that we gave up on IQ. Who like Dallas found out last year with JB, is in my opinion underrated and will be elite if given the chance..
But hey, once we were unable to extend him, he was gone. We could have lost him and received nothing in return. So guess moving him now made sense.

Time to turn the page. Hopefully as was the case with the JJart trade last year, FO will prove themselves to be more knowledgeable than the average fan.

HofstraBBall wrote:IQ was moved because the FO did not believe he was worth starter money or could fit in the SL. That simple.
If they did, they would have paid him and started him at the 2.

In terms of RJ, that was easy. Knicks knew they needed a better outside shooter and a better defender at the SF spot. Agree with both wholeheartedly. Sure I would have liked for RJ to become the player we all hoped he could be, but how long is enough?

My concern is that we are usually a step behind. Loading ones team with a bunch of three and D players may now be taken over by having 5 quick athletic players who can really shoot the three. Which is exactly what IQ is. Have mentioned in the past that one of the complaints regarding Thibs, that has some weight, is that he is an old school coach. Loves those bigger defenders regardless of what they do on offense. OG may be in that mold but losing IQ, who fit that so well hurts.

Definitely ike that we got better defensively at SF. With a better shooter. Just hate that we gave up on IQ. Who like Dallas found out last year with JB, is in my opinion underrated and will be elite if given the chance..
But hey, once we were unable to extend him, he was gone. We could have lost him and received nothing in return. So guess moving him now made sense.

Time to turn the page. Hopefully as was the case with the JJart trade last year, FO will prove themselves to be more knowledgeable than the average fan.

Good points but.......The things that JB is good at he was elite in college, and by year 3 was really showing up.
IQ could shoot and light it up in spurts, and if hot finish games. But if not, he was not playmaking enough (the dancing with ball) to earn his place with the kind of money he could get elsewhere. If JB was not here perhaps.

With JR, enough is enough? Not sure I agree at 23 years of age there are many many players who don't show up but thats conceptual and in OG we get not potential, we get a first tier defender and a corner three shooter that will fit with team. For that, Im good with this trade.
Precious is perhaps also not one that has reached his potential and maddening but he will get "Thibbed" and either be resigned or we let him walk. He'll be given an ample opportunity. Flynn? How many redhead guards we go with? LOL. I expect Deuce to get the nod over him.

A Brunson paired with good sized DDV or Grimes, and likewise Deuce with whom ever gives us a nice balance in the rotation. With RJ gone, curious how Thibs goes with rotations. OG out and come back in with second unit?
Never looked at the RJ/IQ combo but that chemistry is now all Raptors. Wonder if they start IQ anytime soon.

Knicks culture is established. Players come in and either fit or not. Coach is the law here. This is how good teams get better. All teams make mistakes and others take advantage as well. Its how we got Randle and Brunson. That Randle was not traded for value and Brunson miscast happens. For what its worth, Brunson and Luka are not a dream match up if you think about it. Individually fantastic. Dallas also had Timmy who likely gets injured when it was time to trade him? Timmy has the height. Again, they did not know fully what they had in JB but context matters.

Was this a good trade? Only time will tell, not "letter grades". In a world where December trades are rare this one jolted the team.

This FO has moved on from Frank, Knox, Obi, RJ, and IQ. Have to say if the team succeeds and we become fond of the new guys it all works itself out even if RJ and IQ excel. Today we don't know and it's hard to move on. Its why some hate the trade.

Generally agree and would add that it hurts even more because it didn't necessarily have to happen. Frank, Knox, Obi headline the list of guys we should have never drafted and you can add a few names from recent drafts that we bypassed because we did not want to create a logjam somewhere( Jaylen williams passed over as we already had RJ sticks out and then there is keeping the powder dry instead of simply grabbing Jaquez is another)... There is an alternate universe where we have names like Halliburton, Donovan mitchell, Mikal bridges, SGA and guys like IQ and RJ fit fine on that team or at least are traded from a position of strength whereas yesterday was more of a move driven by need.

When you consistently make drafting errors in the lottery it eventually adds up and it does not matter how many 2nd rounders ( mitch, sims, Deuce) or late first rounders ( IQ, Grimes) and free agents ( brunson, hart come to mind) you get right.

This FO admitted that yesterday and now the most critical events for this version of the knicks will be the ones we execute in the next 6 months or so. We have a vague 2-4 year window where Brunson, OG, and randle are our guys and we know what the competition looks like and now all other moves, including using most of those picks sitting on the shelf... finally need to be fully committed to this plan or fade away for good.

This is scary and risky and that's also why this morning feels different than any in the last few years, but you can also say this is our opportunity to finally take our shot.

Just like Philly finally reached the end of their 'process' that sound you heard yesterday was the bell lap going off for these knicks.

I had kind of thought OG was unattainable given some of the Knicks/Toronto bad vibes - maybe a player that Toronto would rather anyone else have. So the Knicks finally getting their man is a nice touch and a sign that adults were in the room negotiating.

Early REDIT reports on Flynn are disturbing. Knicks should just cut him loose if true.

Precious, who is not a center, will still give Randall a break here and there.

RJ will be a big start in Toronto - hard worker, learner, no slouch.

And, likewise, Quick will shine - too talented not to.

I also disagree that this is not a trade that makes NY a contender - I think it surely is as a dark horse candidate.

Next trades? How about an improbable one?

Go get Draymond Green on the cheap.

What if?

OG is the missing piece? And since Leon'sson is his agent, what if Leon was able to sign a superstar then resign OG after?

Or

What if we snatch IQ back from Toronto? I heard that’s still a play. If so how gangster is that.

All these ifs just makes this season even more intriguing.

Nalod wrote:

Alpha1971 wrote:Nalod, you need a hug ? Bring it in 🫂🫂🫂🤗. Bro hugs only. We are not making chest to chest contact.. 😔

Hugs are nice!!!!

Happy New Year.

On knicks? Money aside, I have The "Harts", josh and Isiah as our energy guys. Not trading Josh for Dray.
This is a trade Lakers do. A sort of "Rodman to Bulls" fresh start were team leadership takes him in. I don't know the dynamic of Steph vs. Dray as for locker room stuff, but in LA Lebron is the defacto alpha with AD and that would need be discussed prior to any deal. Steph is no doubt the straw that stirs that drink and a killer on the court, but I don't know him to be extroverted beyond. That don't mean it does not exist. Few were Jordan, Magic, bird, and lebron.

martin wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

martin wrote:

fwk00 wrote:Interesting trade in that it was an adult trade as opposed to, say, alopsided Ainge trade. Both teams got what they wanted.
While a lot of Knick pundits are wetting their pants that NY kept all their first-rounders I would argue that Toronto scored a very valuable second-rounder in that Detroit pick. Imo, its far more valuable than those conditional firsts in the same talent ballpark.

I had kind of thought OG was unattainable given some of the Knicks/Toronto bad vibes - maybe a player that Toronto would rather anyone else have. So the Knicks finally getting their man is a nice touch and a sign that adults were in the room negotiating.

Early REDIT reports on Flynn are disturbing. Knicks should just cut him loose if true.

Precious, who is not a center, will still give Randall a break here and there.

RJ will be a big start in Toronto - hard worker, learner, no slouch.

And, likewise, Quick will shine - too talented not to.

I also disagree that this is not a trade that makes NY a contender - I think it surely is as a dark horse candidate.

Next trades? How about an improbable one?

Go get Draymond Green on the cheap.

Adult trade, I like that, good way to put it.

And Draymond had crossed my mind too, off the bench. But he is going to be 34 soon and will have 3 extra years. That's a lot to swallow.

It is a load but it's also playoff gold.

What's not being discussed is that this also creates a real tension and pressure for. Cleveland to move or lose out if Atlanta moves first with Murray. This will reach a crisis point soon.

Not for nothing but I could see Atlanta, Brooklyn, Cleveland, New York all somehow be involved with Dejounte, Donovan, Mikal, Grimes/lots of picks mnoving.

My thoughts as well. Somebody will move aggressively to cash in on Grimes and those picks. The Knicks have the best trading cards on the table. If Donovan really wants to be a Knick this is the window of opportunity that will be closing on that dream. If the Knicks take a flyer on Murray and Murray delivers big, Donovan out of luck AND Cleveland misses out on that bag of picks that they will need.

I could see Mitchell and Allen for Hartenstein, Grimes, Sims, and Fournier and a sh@t load of picks being bounced around.

martin wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

martin wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

martin wrote:

fwk00 wrote:Interesting trade in that it was an adult trade as opposed to, say, alopsided Ainge trade. Both teams got what they wanted.
While a lot of Knick pundits are wetting their pants that NY kept all their first-rounders I would argue that Toronto scored a very valuable second-rounder in that Detroit pick. Imo, its far more valuable than those conditional firsts in the same talent ballpark.

I had kind of thought OG was unattainable given some of the Knicks/Toronto bad vibes - maybe a player that Toronto would rather anyone else have. So the Knicks finally getting their man is a nice touch and a sign that adults were in the room negotiating.

Early REDIT reports on Flynn are disturbing. Knicks should just cut him loose if true.

Precious, who is not a center, will still give Randall a break here and there.

RJ will be a big start in Toronto - hard worker, learner, no slouch.

And, likewise, Quick will shine - too talented not to.

I also disagree that this is not a trade that makes NY a contender - I think it surely is as a dark horse candidate.

Next trades? How about an improbable one?

Go get Draymond Green on the cheap.

Adult trade, I like that, good way to put it.

And Draymond had crossed my mind too, off the bench. But he is going to be 34 soon and will have 3 extra years. That's a lot to swallow.

It is a load but it's also playoff gold.

What's not being discussed is that this also creates a real tension and pressure for. Cleveland to move or lose out if Atlanta moves first with Murray. This will reach a crisis point soon.

Not for nothing but I could see Atlanta, Brooklyn, Cleveland, New York all somehow be involved with Dejounte, Donovan, Mikal, Grimes/lots of picks mnoving.

My thoughts as well. Somebody will move aggressively to cash in on Grimes and those picks. The Knicks have the best trading cards on the table. If Donovan really wants to be a Knick this is the window of opportunity that will be closing on that dream. If the Knicks take a flyer on Murray and Murray delivers big, Donovan out of luck AND Cleveland misses out on that bag of picks that they will need.

I could see Mitchell and Allen for Hartenstein, Grimes, Sims, and Fournier and a sh@t load of picks being bounced around.

Realistically, Knicks just don't have the salaries that match up with Mitchell/Allen right now. That's ~$50M.

the Warrior I think about trying to get is Klay Thompson. I wouldn’t want Draymond if he were free to sign - too much of a knucklehead.

Klay, however, would be great. But I don’t see how you could trade for him. I have to imagine GS has to start thinking about retooling.