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Great, another road game against Boston, 730 MSG
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Nalod
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12/9/2023  4:37 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/9/2023  4:40 AM
If you defend the 3 heavy you open up the lanes and Boston will kill you.
They are perhaps the top team in the league. Derrick White is really quite good. Boston starting 5 is elite.
Second guess the coach but need to consider the options. Thibs understands to beat a good team you need to to execute the lessor statistic on them. If they hit the shots, we lose.

Grimes on second unit was fed more. he subbed in for Brunson. Hitting his first shot was cool and he played his game given/earning touches.

As for IQ starting or not perhaps Thibs wants a bigger guy who can play better Defense vs wings. IQ to me seems to be taking less floaters and if he does not get off a quick shot, seems to be over handing the ball when he probes. RJ does this as well but he has improved this a bit this year. IQ in the past runs into these quagmires and has come out a better player.

Its apparent the Knicks are a middle of the pack team perhaps at best a 6th seed. Still a lot of season to go. In the east Philly is better than predicted, Boston and Milwaukee are what was expected, Miami will be in the mix to a lessor degree. Indy and Orlando have made great strides and looking they might pass us. Welcome to parity.
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blkexec
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12/9/2023  5:32 AM
Clean wrote:

I bet Grime was happy to get away from ISO ball.

Let’s see how long it takes DDV to feel the same frustration playing with iso heavy players in that starting unit.

Born in Brooklyn, Raised in Queens, Lives in Maryland. The future is bright, I'm a Knicks fan for life!
HofstraBBall
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12/9/2023  7:12 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/9/2023  7:38 AM
LivingLegend wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
ToddTT wrote:
SergioNYK wrote:Disagree with Thibs here but we'll see what happens. Hopefully he didn't completely kill Grimes confidence.

+1

Disagree. If Grimes had kept starting, and probably still playing poorly. Then his confidence would likely be shot.

This is Grimes chance to put his money where his mouth is, with a second unit which will do a better job of getting Grimes more touches.

I'm also surprised that Grimes was benched so soon after his comments. But the behind the scenes stuff about his frustration, probably made it inevitable.

+1

Would have preferred IQ promoted though. But do realize that the only other player, in the 9 man rotation, who Thibs trusts at PG is IQ.

And remarkably he isn’t even a PG —— guy might as well have horse blinders on.

Especially in a contact year.
My preference is IQ at starting SG and Deuce as backup PG.
Don't think Knicks or Thibs feel Deuce is worth that change.
Keep saying that move would give Grimes a chance to be more aggressive.
But feel Devo is a step in the right direction.

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
HofstraBBall
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12/9/2023  7:37 AM
blkexec wrote:
Clean wrote:

I bet Grime was happy to get away from ISO ball.

Let’s see how long it takes DDV to feel the same frustration playing with iso heavy players in that starting unit.

Nah. Devo is going to take advantage of the opportunity. He will also not defer to sitting in the corner like Grimes. Grimes just did not fit with this starting lineup. He got shots off iso. He just did not hit enough of them or create off the catch. And if he can't play on a ISO lineup, he better get out of the NBA.

For me, it's not about scoring for the right starting SG. It's about fit. You need another dog there. You put IQ there and he will get his shots off, drive. and defer to JB and JR when needed. JR liked passing to IQ because he knows he won't hesitate to shoot and will do something with the ball. We also already see how the move benefited Grimes and yet some still are complaining.
Devo is also a much better fit. He will not pass up open shots. He creates every time he gets a touch. Constantly driving and kicking out to open players. Grimes said it himself. He was afraid to shoot. Don't understand fans that blame other players or coaches for guys that don't take advantage of opportunities or maybe are not as good as we had hoped.

Have a good feel and think this move, which I have been hoping for, will be seen as a big positive step in a few weeks.

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
nycericanguy
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12/9/2023  7:52 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/9/2023  7:54 AM
hurts to see what could have been with KP. Brunson and KP were deadly in DAL. people here talking about trading multiple assets for role players but an all star, two way big who stretches the floor was available for Tyus Jones and a 2nd rounder and we weren't in on it. this FO should have taken that risk, it was low risk/high reward. I legit think we could have won a chip with KP here. He's everything we lack at C and would have opened up the floor big time for our scorers.

we might have handed BOS the title.
SergioNYK
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12/9/2023  8:37 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/9/2023  8:38 AM
Disappointing loss. We battled but just didn't have enough. Not sure why this team all of the sudden thinks playing Mike D'Antoni no defense trying to outscore teams is going to work. We are not equipped to outscore teams, especially teams who are better and have more scoring and shooting. We have to get back to playing our game - grind it out, dirty, rebounding.

Very annoyed with Rob. It's like he either didn't learn a damn thing playing KP this season or maybe it's the gameplan (doubt it!) or maybe it's the one match up he simply cannot match up with cause he's been downright dumb and awful covering KP this season. Gives him way too much room! Maybe Rob just doesn't have the footspeed to cover this guy.

Annoyed with Brunson too. I'm a huge Brunson fan but he has his worst game defensively. Clearly didn't respect Derrick White's scoring and shooting ability and got burned for 30.

One of those games I wanted to throw the remote at the wall watching Randle and his 6 TO's. On the bright side, it was good to finally see Grimes have a good game and make some shots and be involved on offense.

We are right where I'd thought we'd be at this point at 12-9. What are what we were last year. We are a good team, not a great team. We can win a playoff round again depending on who we play but there is no way we are beating Boston, Milwaukee, Philly or Miami in the second round and zero chance we are getting to the conference finals. It is what it is. No shame in just being a good team after being a dumpster fire the last two decades.
blkexec
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12/9/2023  10:40 AM
nycericanguy wrote:hurts to see what could have been with KP. Brunson and KP were deadly in DAL. people here talking about trading multiple assets for role players but an all star, two way big who stretches the floor was available for Tyus Jones and a 2nd rounder and we weren't in on it. this FO should have taken that risk, it was low risk/high reward. I legit think we could have won a chip with KP here. He's everything we lack at C and would have opened up the floor big time for our scorers.

we might have handed BOS the title.

If KP was here, he would've got booed out the garden, everytime a Mitch type center out rebounded him. We would say, get in the paint, you're 7 ft tall.

Grimes said it best. Each jumper felt like the ball weighed a ton. Thats called Thibs pressure cooker, where only certain players can handle.

This version of KP is playing mad and love to get back at the knicks. With that said, adding KP was a low risk and this FO doesn't seem to rush into anything. Thats good for stability, bad for missed opportunities.

Born in Brooklyn, Raised in Queens, Lives in Maryland. The future is bright, I'm a Knicks fan for life!
nycericanguy
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12/9/2023  10:43 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/9/2023  10:43 AM
blkexec wrote:
nycericanguy wrote:hurts to see what could have been with KP. Brunson and KP were deadly in DAL. people here talking about trading multiple assets for role players but an all star, two way big who stretches the floor was available for Tyus Jones and a 2nd rounder and we weren't in on it. this FO should have taken that risk, it was low risk/high reward. I legit think we could have won a chip with KP here. He's everything we lack at C and would have opened up the floor big time for our scorers.

we might have handed BOS the title.

If KP was here, he would've got booed out the garden, everytime a Mitch type center out rebounded him. We would say, get in the paint, you're 7 ft tall.

Grimes said it best. Each jumper felt like the ball weighed a ton. Thats called Thibs pressure cooker, where only certain players can handle.

This version of KP is playing mad and love to get back at the knicks. With that said, adding KP was a low risk and this FO doesn't seem to rush into anything. Thats good for stability, bad for missed opportunities.

KP was never booed out of the garden that's copium. Quite the contrary he was beloved here.

Would have been a great two headed monster with Mitch and a great backup PF.
ToddTT
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12/9/2023  10:49 AM
JFC
blkexec
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12/9/2023  10:57 AM
SergioNYK wrote:Disappointing loss. We battled but just didn't have enough. Not sure why this team all of the sudden thinks playing Mike D'Antoni no defense trying to outscore teams is going to work. We are not equipped to outscore teams, especially teams who are better and have more scoring and shooting. We have to get back to playing our game - grind it out, dirty, rebounding.

Very annoyed with Rob. It's like he either didn't learn a damn thing playing KP this season or maybe it's the gameplan (doubt it!) or maybe it's the one match up he simply cannot match up with cause he's been downright dumb and awful covering KP this season. Gives him way too much room! Maybe Rob just doesn't have the footspeed to cover this guy.

Annoyed with Brunson too. I'm a huge Brunson fan but he has his worst game defensively. Clearly didn't respect Derrick White's scoring and shooting ability and got burned for 30.

One of those games I wanted to throw the remote at the wall watching Randle and his 6 TO's. On the bright side, it was good to finally see Grimes have a good game and make some shots and be involved on offense.

We are right where I'd thought we'd be at this point at 12-9. What are what we were last year. We are a good team, not a great team. We can win a playoff round again depending on who we play but there is no way we are beating Boston, Milwaukee, Philly or Miami in the second round and zero chance we are getting to the conference finals. It is what it is. No shame in just being a good team after being a dumpster fire the last two decades.

Replying to the bold "not good enough to outscore teams." I don't think we are good enough to stop good teams either. And Randle's tunnel vision can be a chemistry killer. Something the Boston announcers (Scalabrine) where also saying. Listening to the Boston feed, I'm surprised they were mostly positive about the knicks and usually say what most fans don't want to here. But Randle not the only one with tunnel vision. At times our big three are like that, and that spreads to the other roll players. Then you watch Boston on offense, who has been ISO players, but still play better team ball. In fact, just watch the offense of most teams we play.

Not good at offense or defense is a dangerous place to be. And thats where we are right now (Just need to play a bad team to get back on track).

I'm hoping Thibs hasn't lost the Lockeroom. Especially after Grimes spoke up, who's normally very quiet. Then he's removed and we still loss. On top of that, how many shots did DDV take as a starter? I bet Grimes is happy now. As a player, I would hate to play with 3 tunnel vision players. Now just like pickup games, sometimes those ISO players can win games for you. But as a player, I've walked off the court in the middle of a game, whenever I play with a ball hog / Iso player. Especially when they are not even that good creating space for themselves. or lacks the vision when someone comes to double.

Winning is the only cure.

Born in Brooklyn, Raised in Queens, Lives in Maryland. The future is bright, I'm a Knicks fan for life!
HofstraBBall
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12/9/2023  11:10 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/9/2023  11:13 AM
nycericanguy wrote:hurts to see what could have been with KP. Brunson and KP were deadly in DAL. people here talking about trading multiple assets for role players but an all star, two way big who stretches the floor was available for Tyus Jones and a 2nd rounder and we weren't in on it. this FO should have taken that risk, it was low risk/high reward. I legit think we could have won a chip with KP here. He's everything we lack at C and would have opened up the floor big time for our scorers.

we might have handed BOS the title.

Easy to say that now. However, it ignores KPs feared risk. Injuries. There was never a doubt about his ability. Hopefully he stays healthy. If we traded for him and he got hurt, the posts would be somewhat different.

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
nycericanguy
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12/9/2023  11:19 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/9/2023  11:20 AM
HofstraBBall wrote:
nycericanguy wrote:hurts to see what could have been with KP. Brunson and KP were deadly in DAL. people here talking about trading multiple assets for role players but an all star, two way big who stretches the floor was available for Tyus Jones and a 2nd rounder and we weren't in on it. this FO should have taken that risk, it was low risk/high reward. I legit think we could have won a chip with KP here. He's everything we lack at C and would have opened up the floor big time for our scorers.

we might have handed BOS the title.

Easy to say that now. However, it ignores KPs feared risk. Injuries. There was never a doubt about his ability. Hopefully he stays healthy. If we traded for him and he got hurt, the posts would be somewhat different.

It's been easy to say before and now...KP is going to miss 20-30 games a year, doesn't matter, our team, like BOS wouldn't be relying on him to be a #1 guy. Very few stars play 75 games anymore. Khawi might miss 30 games but if he were available for a 2nd and role players you wouldn't want him? these two way players change the game. KP has changed the game for BOS.

KP could have been our #4/5 guy like he is in BOS behind Randle, Brunson, RJ & maybe even IQ.

We had plenty of depth and assets.

just b/c a guy misses games doesn't mean he's not valuable. AD misses a ton of games for the Lakers but if it works you get a chip.

KP's role in BOS isn't nearly as demanding as what it was before, he would have had a similarly easier role here. Space the floor, shoot 3's and defend the rim.
martin
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12/9/2023  11:24 AM
LivingLegend wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
ToddTT wrote:
SergioNYK wrote:Disagree with Thibs here but we'll see what happens. Hopefully he didn't completely kill Grimes confidence.

+1

Disagree. If Grimes had kept starting, and probably still playing poorly. Then his confidence would likely be shot.

This is Grimes chance to put his money where his mouth is, with a second unit which will do a better job of getting Grimes more touches.

I'm also surprised that Grimes was benched so soon after his comments. But the behind the scenes stuff about his frustration, probably made it inevitable.

+1

Would have preferred IQ promoted though. But do realize that the only other player, in the 9 man rotation, who Thibs trusts at PG is IQ.

And remarkably he isn’t even a PG —— guy might as well have horse blinders on.

My feel on IQ has been down this year against my expectations for him. Dribbles too much and doesn’t know what to do in traffic and gives his dribble up there too often.

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GustavBahler
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12/9/2023  11:32 AM
This was the Grimes we watched as a promising rook. Sometimes starting a player too soon hinders their development. Grimes can work on his handle with the second unit, not a lot of space to do it with the starters.

WTF was Thibs thinking playing the starters in garbage time? If Thibs had been a young asst coach filling in for one game. Who did the same thing. I doubt he would get another shot.

As fans we're balancing what Thibs has done for the team, helping stabilize the Head Coach position.
Getting us back to being a regular playoff presence in a long time. With a coach who regularly polls at the bottom of player rankings. Some brush that off, while wondering why we cant attract stars? Not the only reason. But I believe the long line of current and former players who have registered almost the same complaint verbatim, isnt making the Knicks an attractive enough destination for stars.

Yes, we dont have that star. But that has nothing to do with the ISO heavy offense, player issues. Playing your star players in garbage time, when that can only set the team back.

If Thibs isnt on the hot seat this season, he should be. I'm grateful for what Thibs did to right the ship, so to speak. But Thibs stubborness has us going in circles IMO.
LivingLegend
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12/9/2023  12:03 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:
nycericanguy wrote:hurts to see what could have been with KP. Brunson and KP were deadly in DAL. people here talking about trading multiple assets for role players but an all star, two way big who stretches the floor was available for Tyus Jones and a 2nd rounder and we weren't in on it. this FO should have taken that risk, it was low risk/high reward. I legit think we could have won a chip with KP here. He's everything we lack at C and would have opened up the floor big time for our scorers.

we might have handed BOS the title.

Easy to say that now. However, it ignores KPs feared risk. Injuries. There was never a doubt about his ability. Hopefully he stays healthy. If we traded for him and he got hurt, the posts would be somewhat different.

To be fair though there were a # of posters suggesting we go get KP — I think one of the discussion points on that front was do you pair him with or without Mitch.

I think I had suggested trading Mitch/others for KP who I view as a center like Boston is using jim
martin
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12/9/2023  12:05 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/9/2023  12:08 PM
Clean wrote:

Been saying this for damn near 4 years. Teams shooting so well from 3 against us is a scheme problem. People don't like when I talk about Thibs though. Our defense relies on people missing open 3's.

People See Randle and Thibs and think. We were trash for so many years and at least we are decent now. So lets ride it out. I see both of them and appreciate what they have done for us but also know in my heart our potentential to get further than where we are will severely be limited while they have prominant roles on this team due to their glaring shortcomings.

4 years of team defensive stats on opponent 3pt%.

What jumps out at you?

#23 https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/opponent?Season=2023-24&dir=D&sort=OPP_FG3_PCT
#12 https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/opponent?Season=2022-23&dir=D&sort=OPP_FG3_PCT
#6 https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/opponent?Season=2021-22&dir=D&sort=OPP_FG3_PCT
#1 https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/opponent?Season=2020-21&dir=D&sort=OPP_FG3_PCT

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LivingLegend
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12/9/2023  12:05 PM
nycericanguy wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
nycericanguy wrote:hurts to see what could have been with KP. Brunson and KP were deadly in DAL. people here talking about trading multiple assets for role players but an all star, two way big who stretches the floor was available for Tyus Jones and a 2nd rounder and we weren't in on it. this FO should have taken that risk, it was low risk/high reward. I legit think we could have won a chip with KP here. He's everything we lack at C and would have opened up the floor big time for our scorers.

we might have handed BOS the title.

Easy to say that now. However, it ignores KPs feared risk. Injuries. There was never a doubt about his ability. Hopefully he stays healthy. If we traded for him and he got hurt, the posts would be somewhat different.

It's been easy to say before and now...KP is going to miss 20-30 games a year, doesn't matter, our team, like BOS wouldn't be relying on him to be a #1 guy. Very few stars play 75 games anymore. Khawi might miss 30 games but if he were available for a 2nd and role players you wouldn't want him? these two way players change the game. KP has changed the game for BOS.

KP could have been our #4/5 guy like he is in BOS behind Randle, Brunson, RJ & maybe even IQ.

We had plenty of depth and assets.

just b/c a guy misses games doesn't mean he's not valuable. AD misses a ton of games for the Lakers but if it works you get a chip.

KP's role in BOS isn't nearly as demanding as what it was before, he would have had a similarly easier role here. Space the floor, shoot 3's and defend the rim.

Agree with most of this NYC - the issue was likely Thibs tied to Mitch…just like he is to Julius.

KP was there to be had.
Clean
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12/9/2023  12:27 PM
martin wrote:
Clean wrote:

Been saying this for damn near 4 years. Teams shooting so well from 3 against us is a scheme problem. People don't like when I talk about Thibs though. Our defense relies on people missing open 3's.

People See Randle and Thibs and think. We were trash for so many years and at least we are decent now. So lets ride it out. I see both of them and appreciate what they have done for us but also know in my heart our potentential to get further than where we are will severely be limited while they have prominant roles on this team due to their glaring shortcomings.

4 years of team defensive stats on opponent 3pt%.

What jumps out at you?

#23 https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/opponent?Season=2023-24&dir=D&sort=OPP_FG3_PCT
#12 https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/opponent?Season=2022-23&dir=D&sort=OPP_FG3_PCT
#6 https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/opponent?Season=2021-22&dir=D&sort=OPP_FG3_PCT
#1 https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/opponent?Season=2020-21&dir=D&sort=OPP_FG3_PCT

Opp 3pt% is too broad of a stat to get to the problem I have with our defensive scheme. If you really want to get to the bottom of how bad our 3pt defense is then find these 2 stats. Amount of open 3's given up compared to other teams and our opponents percentage on those open 3's.

By using the stats you provided we were the number 1 team in opp 3pt percentage during the 20-21 season. That would make you think we were a pretty good 3pt defensive team. We were one of the worst teams that season on the amount of open 3's we gave up but guess what. Teams only shot 33.7% on those open 3's by all star break and 36.2% by the end of the year. Numbers can be deceiving without context.

https://nypost.com/2021/05/20/knicks-will-need-luck-to-stay-on-their-side-to-have-long-playoff-run/
nycericanguy
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12/9/2023  12:32 PM
LivingLegend wrote:
nycericanguy wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
nycericanguy wrote:hurts to see what could have been with KP. Brunson and KP were deadly in DAL. people here talking about trading multiple assets for role players but an all star, two way big who stretches the floor was available for Tyus Jones and a 2nd rounder and we weren't in on it. this FO should have taken that risk, it was low risk/high reward. I legit think we could have won a chip with KP here. He's everything we lack at C and would have opened up the floor big time for our scorers.

we might have handed BOS the title.

Easy to say that now. However, it ignores KPs feared risk. Injuries. There was never a doubt about his ability. Hopefully he stays healthy. If we traded for him and he got hurt, the posts would be somewhat different.

It's been easy to say before and now...KP is going to miss 20-30 games a year, doesn't matter, our team, like BOS wouldn't be relying on him to be a #1 guy. Very few stars play 75 games anymore. Khawi might miss 30 games but if he were available for a 2nd and role players you wouldn't want him? these two way players change the game. KP has changed the game for BOS.

KP could have been our #4/5 guy like he is in BOS behind Randle, Brunson, RJ & maybe even IQ.

We had plenty of depth and assets.

just b/c a guy misses games doesn't mean he's not valuable. AD misses a ton of games for the Lakers but if it works you get a chip.

KP's role in BOS isn't nearly as demanding as what it was before, he would have had a similarly easier role here. Space the floor, shoot 3's and defend the rim.

Agree with most of this NYC - the issue was likely Thibs tied to Mitch…just like he is to Julius.

KP was there to be had.

Porque no los dos?

Mitch is a 28mpg player, that alone leaves 20mpg at C, and you easily have another 14mpg at backup PF.

Truth be told KP is probably best limited to 28mpg or so anyway and would probably fit better with the starters since he spaces the floor so much.

Just the threat of KP 25 feet out opens things up for BOS so much.

It was a huge blunder not going after him and strengthening BOS in the process.. it is what it is but none of this is hindsight and it's copium to suggest that just b/c KP misses some games he's not worth it.
martin
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12/9/2023  1:32 PM
Clean wrote:
martin wrote:
Clean wrote:

Been saying this for damn near 4 years. Teams shooting so well from 3 against us is a scheme problem. People don't like when I talk about Thibs though. Our defense relies on people missing open 3's.

People See Randle and Thibs and think. We were trash for so many years and at least we are decent now. So lets ride it out. I see both of them and appreciate what they have done for us but also know in my heart our potentential to get further than where we are will severely be limited while they have prominant roles on this team due to their glaring shortcomings.

4 years of team defensive stats on opponent 3pt%.

What jumps out at you?

#23 https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/opponent?Season=2023-24&dir=D&sort=OPP_FG3_PCT
#12 https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/opponent?Season=2022-23&dir=D&sort=OPP_FG3_PCT
#6 https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/opponent?Season=2021-22&dir=D&sort=OPP_FG3_PCT
#1 https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/opponent?Season=2020-21&dir=D&sort=OPP_FG3_PCT

Opp 3pt% is too broad of a stat to get to the problem I have with our defensive scheme. If you really want to get to the bottom of how bad our 3pt defense is then find these 2 stats. Amount of open 3's given up compared to other teams and our opponents percentage on those open 3's.

By using the stats you provided we were the number 1 team in opp 3pt percentage during the 20-21 season. That would make you think we were a pretty good 3pt defensive team. We were one of the worst teams that season on the amount of open 3's we gave up but guess what. Teams only shot 33.7% on those open 3's by all star break and 36.2% by the end of the year. Numbers can be deceiving without context.

https://nypost.com/2021/05/20/knicks-will-need-luck-to-stay-on-their-side-to-have-long-playoff-run/

This is you:

"Teams shooting so well from 3 against us is a scheme problem."

"Opp 3pt% is too broad of a stat to get to the problem I have with our defensive scheme."

If you would like to only focus on wide open 3pt%, YOU need to find and show the stats that actually show those things and how it effects the defensive scheme.

You made 2 diametrically opposing statements. Perhaps you meant to only refine that down to wide open 3pointers, which is fine.

Perhaps you can show something that clearly backs up your position instead of just making some unclear assumptions.

This is the literal conclusion from the article:

At the end of it all, Knicks opponents shot just 38.8 percent on wide-open looks this season, the second-worst rate
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Great, another road game against Boston, 730 MSG
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