GustavBahler wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

VDesai wrote:Bucks are at the bottom of the list and just put up the best offensive performance of the season against us.

Its not purely about the assist number, but the ball has to move when teams collapse on our ISOs. That's when we operate best. But you can also only get an assist when you make the shot.

Going back to LeBron's chip' in Cleveland. Every championship team was at least middle of the pack over a season in team assists.

We dont have to be elite like GS is year in and year out to contend. But we cant be consistently at the bottom of the pack either.

As other posters have mentioned, Thibs offense is ISO heavy.

i mean this is obviously not a championship roster as currently constructed and we don't have a Lebron or a Curry.

but we aren't an ISO heavy team.

Compared to team assists we are. Championship teams are good to great at sharing the rock. Knicks have been at the bottom of the league for the last 4 years, at least. Not going to get past elite teams that way.

You dont need to wait for better players either to do a better job of finding the open man. Some of the worst teams in the league are elite at sharing the rock. Dont need a "Dream Team" to do a better job of moving the ball.

to get past the elite teams you need to be an elite team yourself.

we are a very good team but we are NOT an elite team, we are a tier below without that true top 5-10 player.

and that's ok, enjoy the ride, it's been a long time since we had good basketball at MSG.

and the great thing is we have plenty of room to grow either internally or via trade with all our assets.

Your answer to every statistic. Every shortcoming this team has is that we dont have an elite player. You're implying that the team should not be expected to do a better job at anything at all until we get a star. Thats not how contenders are built.

Thats not a team a star wants to be traded to. Waiting for them to solve all their problems.

I mean yea that's basically it, to reach that next level we're going to need that truly elite player. It's not going to be b/c of any adjustment Thibs makes that unlocks another level. There is a ceiling to this roster and I think we have already been overachieving as is.

If you really want to go back and look at commonalities for previous championship teams, it's having a top 5 player more than anything.

Strongly disagree that we cant get any better. Benching Grimes would be a good start. Getting Mitch, one of the best lob threats in the league more involved. More minutes for IQ.

Its a defeatist attitude to suggest that this team as constructed cant improve through rotation changes, adjustments.

Thats how we made it to the second round last season, when Thibs soldified his rotation. If Thibs hadnt altered his plan, we might not have made it past the first round. Coaching is all about adjustments to what other teams are doing.

no one's saying we can't get better, but we have squeezed alot out of this roster and any improvement is likely to be incremental, we're not going to drastically change the way we play when its worked so well.

To reach that elite level we will probably need a major talent upgrade.

You're saying repeatedly that anything Thibs does short of having an elite player wont make us elite. So its not worth discussing anything in between. Because this is the best they will get. I disagree that Thibs doesnt have enough talent on the roster to take another big step this season, without another star.

Will it get us all the way? Probably not. While getting a star might be the main thing on your mind right now when it comes to the Knicks. What Thibs does in the meantime. To make the most of what he has now, to be ready for the possible addition of an elite player. Is on my front burner as a fan. In the present. Plenty of room for both discussions.

I do think Thibs has made the most of this roster, and I don't think we can be an elite team without an elite player. There's no true contender that doesn't have a top 10 player.

So we'll have to agree to disagree on this, this just isn't an elite or championship roster. That's not on Thibs, no coach is winning a chip with this roster. You can see when we play the BOS's and MIL's, we outwork them, but the talent gap is just hard to overcome.

nycericanguy wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

VDesai wrote:Bucks are at the bottom of the list and just put up the best offensive performance of the season against us.

Its not purely about the assist number, but the ball has to move when teams collapse on our ISOs. That's when we operate best. But you can also only get an assist when you make the shot.

Going back to LeBron's chip' in Cleveland. Every championship team was at least middle of the pack over a season in team assists.

We dont have to be elite like GS is year in and year out to contend. But we cant be consistently at the bottom of the pack either.

As other posters have mentioned, Thibs offense is ISO heavy.

i mean this is obviously not a championship roster as currently constructed and we don't have a Lebron or a Curry.

but we aren't an ISO heavy team.

Compared to team assists we are. Championship teams are good to great at sharing the rock. Knicks have been at the bottom of the league for the last 4 years, at least. Not going to get past elite teams that way.

You dont need to wait for better players either to do a better job of finding the open man. Some of the worst teams in the league are elite at sharing the rock. Dont need a "Dream Team" to do a better job of moving the ball.

to get past the elite teams you need to be an elite team yourself.

we are a very good team but we are NOT an elite team, we are a tier below without that true top 5-10 player.

and that's ok, enjoy the ride, it's been a long time since we had good basketball at MSG.

and the great thing is we have plenty of room to grow either internally or via trade with all our assets.

Your answer to every statistic. Every shortcoming this team has is that we dont have an elite player. You're implying that the team should not be expected to do a better job at anything at all until we get a star. Thats not how contenders are built.

Thats not a team a star wants to be traded to. Waiting for them to solve all their problems.

I mean yea that's basically it, to reach that next level we're going to need that truly elite player. It's not going to be b/c of any adjustment Thibs makes that unlocks another level. There is a ceiling to this roster and I think we have already been overachieving as is.

If you really want to go back and look at commonalities for previous championship teams, it's having a top 5 player more than anything.

Strongly disagree that we cant get any better. Benching Grimes would be a good start. Getting Mitch, one of the best lob threats in the league more involved. More minutes for IQ.

Its a defeatist attitude to suggest that this team as constructed cant improve through rotation changes, adjustments.

Thats how we made it to the second round last season, when Thibs soldified his rotation. If Thibs hadnt altered his plan, we might not have made it past the first round. Coaching is all about adjustments to what other teams are doing.

no one's saying we can't get better, but we have squeezed alot out of this roster and any improvement is likely to be incremental, we're not going to drastically change the way we play when its worked so well.

To reach that elite level we will probably need a major talent upgrade.

You're saying repeatedly that anything Thibs does short of having an elite player wont make us elite. So its not worth discussing anything in between. Because this is the best they will get. I disagree that Thibs doesnt have enough talent on the roster to take another big step this season, without another star.

Will it get us all the way? Probably not. While getting a star might be the main thing on your mind right now when it comes to the Knicks. What Thibs does in the meantime. To make the most of what he has now, to be ready for the possible addition of an elite player. Is on my front burner as a fan. In the present. Plenty of room for both discussions.

I do think Thibs has made the most of this roster, and I don't think we can be an elite team without an elite player. There's no true contender that doesn't have a top 10 player.

So we'll have to agree to disagree on this, this just isn't an elite or championship roster.

We back to that again? Never said once that we can be elite without an elite player. You're the only one on this board who is saying it. Over and over again.

Name the elite player we had in 99' in the Finals. What about the 04 Pistons? You can go deep in the playoffs without an elite player. Been done many times. They couldnt have done it if they waited on that elite player to show up.

To keep going deep in the playoffs you need an elite player. Doesnt mean that Thibs cant do a better job as coach in the meantime.

Next time you arent interested in a discussion, Dont be in such a rush to shut it down.

martin wrote:You haven't correlated low assists total with high level playoff team.

All you have shown is a deficiency of the Knicks and then labeled it something bad and named that bad as not being championship level team.

It's a nice topic and all but that's it so far.

Ive correlated upthread that some bad teams are at the top of the team assist list. But teams at the bottom of the assist list havent been champions lately. So why not improve in that dept? Thats the topic.

Wasnt a debate about wether or not being at the bottom of the team assist list is no big deal. It is if you want a chip'.

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:You haven't correlated low assists total with high level playoff team.

All you have shown is a deficiency of the Knicks and then labeled it something bad and named that bad as not being championship level team.

It's a nice topic and all but that's it so far.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/assists-per-game?date=2013-06-20

Out of curiosity I looked up it up for the past 10 years and, for the most part, most of the past champs were top 5 in assists. The outliers were the Kawhi Raptors, the Lebron Heat and '21 Bucks. And even then , thos teams were in the top 15. Takeaway? The Knicks are going to have to get the #1 player in the league in a given year to have title success with the current offense.

I'd be happy with middle of the pack.

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:You haven't correlated low assists total with high level playoff team.

All you have shown is a deficiency of the Knicks and then labeled it something bad and named that bad as not being championship level team.

It's a nice topic and all but that's it so far.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/assists-per-game?date=2013-06-20

Out of curiosity I looked up it up for the past 10 years and, for the most part, most of the past champs were top 5 in assists. The outliers were the Kawhi Raptors, the Lebron Heat and '21 Bucks. And even then , thos teams were in the top 15. Takeaway? The Knicks are going to have to get the #1 player in the league in a given year to have title success with the current offense.

You mean, just like any other team would?

I mean, it's more of an uphill battle when you're offensive system consists of isoing and hoping your centers can get the offensive rebound. It's gotten us to this point, but it's not a system that's built for deep playoff success.

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:You haven't correlated low assists total with high level playoff team.

All you have shown is a deficiency of the Knicks and then labeled it something bad and named that bad as not being championship level team.

It's a nice topic and all but that's it so far.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/assists-per-game?date=2013-06-20

Out of curiosity I looked up it up for the past 10 years and, for the most part, most of the past champs were top 5 in assists. The outliers were the Kawhi Raptors, the Lebron Heat and '21 Bucks. And even then , thos teams were in the top 15. Takeaway? The Knicks are going to have to get the #1 player in the league in a given year to have title success with the current offense.

You mean, just like any other team would?

I mean, it's more of an uphill battle when you're offensive system consists of isoing and hoping your centers can get the offensive rebound. It's gotten us to this point, but it's not a system that's built for deep playoff success.

we were 2 wins away from the ECF, if reg season Randle had showed up we would have been in the ECF.

I mean we were what tied with 90 seconds to go in game 6 @ MIA? If we had pulled that out it would have been mayhem at MSG for game 7.

The system isn't the issue, it's just a general talent issue.

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:You haven't correlated low assists total with high level playoff team.

All you have shown is a deficiency of the Knicks and then labeled it something bad and named that bad as not being championship level team.

It's a nice topic and all but that's it so far.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/assists-per-game?date=2013-06-20

Out of curiosity I looked up it up for the past 10 years and, for the most part, most of the past champs were top 5 in assists. The outliers were the Kawhi Raptors, the Lebron Heat and '21 Bucks. And even then , thos teams were in the top 15. Takeaway? The Knicks are going to have to get the #1 player in the league in a given year to have title success with the current offense.

You mean, just like any other team would?

I mean, it's more of an uphill battle when you're offensive system consists of isoing and hoping your centers can get the offensive rebound. It's gotten us to this point, but it's not a system that's built for deep playoff success.

Is it the assumption that this is the offensive system we are sticking with?

Cause that’s all I can come up with that makes that point relevant.

I'm sorry, I forgot the corner threes

martin wrote:Here is a link to team assist %. I am assuming pace and assists per possession as smoothed out in this stat.

https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced?dir=A&sort=AST_PCT

At the bottom:

30 Portland
29 Bucks
28 Bulls
27 Hawks
26 Knicks
25 OKC
24 Boston

I look at the list and don’t see any type of conclusion to derive here. Not every team runs the offense through a Haliburton guard or Jokic big. Seems assist rate is more about personnel than team success.

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:You haven't correlated low assists total with high level playoff team.

All you have shown is a deficiency of the Knicks and then labeled it something bad and named that bad as not being championship level team.

It's a nice topic and all but that's it so far.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/assists-per-game?date=2013-06-20

Out of curiosity I looked up it up for the past 10 years and, for the most part, most of the past champs were top 5 in assists. The outliers were the Kawhi Raptors, the Lebron Heat and '21 Bucks. And even then , thos teams were in the top 15. Takeaway? The Knicks are going to have to get the #1 player in the league in a given year to have title success with the current offense.

You mean, just like any other team would?

I mean, it's more of an uphill battle when you're offensive system consists of isoing and hoping your centers can get the offensive rebound. It's gotten us to this point, but it's not a system that's built for deep playoff success.

we were 2 wins away from the ECF, if reg season Randle had showed up we would have been in the ECF.

I mean we were what tied with 90 seconds to go in game 6 @ MIA? If we had pulled that out it would have been mayhem at MSG for game 7.

The system isn't the issue, it's just a general talent issue.

We lost to arguably the best coach league who had a skeleton of a roster. I give Thibs credit for what he did against the Cavs. But Spo was able to disect us on offense and defense. I'd say it is the system. If regular season Randle showed, maybe things would be different. Maybe my grandma would be a bicycle if she had wheels. We'll never know. I've stayed in the past, that things are OK for the current roster. But I don't think good teams fear us as much because they know if they can get Randle and RJ to keep pump faking while missing the open man, they can force the team into bad shots.

You gave away your argument right there.

First it’s the system, except if the Knicks were at full health with Randle, then we could have maybe beat them with the same system.

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:You haven't correlated low assists total with high level playoff team.

All you have shown is a deficiency of the Knicks and then labeled it something bad and named that bad as not being championship level team.

It's a nice topic and all but that's it so far.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/assists-per-game?date=2013-06-20

Out of curiosity I looked up it up for the past 10 years and, for the most part, most of the past champs were top 5 in assists. The outliers were the Kawhi Raptors, the Lebron Heat and '21 Bucks. And even then , thos teams were in the top 15. Takeaway? The Knicks are going to have to get the #1 player in the league in a given year to have title success with the current offense.

You mean, just like any other team would?

I mean, it's more of an uphill battle when you're offensive system consists of isoing and hoping your centers can get the offensive rebound. It's gotten us to this point, but it's not a system that's built for deep playoff success.

we were 2 wins away from the ECF, if reg season Randle had showed up we would have been in the ECF.

I mean we were what tied with 90 seconds to go in game 6 @ MIA? If we had pulled that out it would have been mayhem at MSG for game 7.

The system isn't the issue, it's just a general talent issue.

We lost to arguably the best coach league who had a skeleton of a roster. I give Thibs credit for what he did against the Cavs. But Spo was able to disect us on offense and defense. I'd say it is the system. If regular season Randle showed, maybe things would be different. Maybe my grandma would be a bicycle if she had wheels. We'll never know. I've stayed in the past, that things are OK for the current roster. But I don't think good teams fear us as much because they know if they can get Randle and RJ to keep pump faking while missing the open man, they can force the team into bad shots.

You gave away your argument right there.

First it’s the system, except if the Knicks were at full health with Randle, then we could have maybe beat them with the same system.

That's not what I said. I said maybe. I don't believe that to be the case, but I'm just saying I can't completely rule it out. I suspect thatSpo would have hit Ju with a number of help defenders and forced him into offensive killing turnovers.

Maybe it’s not the system. Definitely dont rule that out.

There's one thing I think we can all agree to rule out. We ain't winning a title with Thibs as coach.

KnickDanger wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:You haven't correlated low assists total with high level playoff team.

All you have shown is a deficiency of the Knicks and then labeled it something bad and named that bad as not being championship level team.

It's a nice topic and all but that's it so far.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/assists-per-game?date=2013-06-20

Out of curiosity I looked up it up for the past 10 years and, for the most part, most of the past champs were top 5 in assists. The outliers were the Kawhi Raptors, the Lebron Heat and '21 Bucks. And even then , thos teams were in the top 15. Takeaway? The Knicks are going to have to get the #1 player in the league in a given year to have title success with the current offense.

You mean, just like any other team would?

I mean, it's more of an uphill battle when you're offensive system consists of isoing and hoping your centers can get the offensive rebound. It's gotten us to this point, but it's not a system that's built for deep playoff success.

we were 2 wins away from the ECF, if reg season Randle had showed up we would have been in the ECF.

I mean we were what tied with 90 seconds to go in game 6 @ MIA? If we had pulled that out it would have been mayhem at MSG for game 7.

The system isn't the issue, it's just a general talent issue.

We lost to arguably the best coach league who had a skeleton of a roster. I give Thibs credit for what he did against the Cavs. But Spo was able to disect us on offense and defense. I'd say it is the system. If regular season Randle showed, maybe things would be different. Maybe my grandma would be a bicycle if she had wheels. We'll never know. I've stayed in the past, that things are OK for the current roster. But I don't think good teams fear us as much because they know if they can get Randle and RJ to keep pump faking while missing the open man, they can force the team into bad shots.

You gave away your argument right there.

First it’s the system, except if the Knicks were at full health with Randle, then we could have maybe beat them with the same system.

That's not what I said. I said maybe. I don't believe that to be the case, but I'm just saying I can't completely rule it out. I suspect thatSpo would have hit Ju with a number of help defenders and forced him into offensive killing turnovers.

Maybe it’s not the system. Definitely dont rule that out.

There's one thing I think we can all agree to rule out. We ain't winning a title with Thibs as coach.

Yeah bring back Fizdale. Or Fisher. Or Rambis. Or Isiah. Or....

I remember those years. Everyone complaining about how we needed a tough defensive coach. An experienced coach. Someone that is respected. Takes us to respectability. You know, Thibs.

Love when fan bases blame something in not winning chip. Especially when they blame the coach and ignore that the team just does not have the roster to compete against teams that do. Fans like to whine and blame the good pieces they have. They should instead realize that they have a long way to go before being able to win a chip. A process that involves adding not subtracting. Changing the coach or one or 2 players is not getting us a chip. Btw, 29 fan bases are doing the same every year. Ones that have much better teams than we do. But not a better coach .