The Knicks haven’t ranked better than 28th in assists during Thibodeau’s tenure, the league’s worst cumulative over four-plus seasons.

Thibs doesnt have the roster to be a legit contender, but there are things he can control like an emphasis on ball movement, sharing the rock.

We cant be consistently at the bottom of the league in assists. Not with championship aspirations.

https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced?dir=A&sort=AST_PCT

At the bottom:

30 Portland
29 Bucks
28 Bulls
27 Hawks
26 Knicks
25 OKC
24 Boston

nycericanguy wrote:this is personale more than anything. There are some really bad teams near the top and some really good teams near the bottom. We are built more like BOS who is also near the bottom with three primary score first players.

If it ain't broke don't fix it, our offense has overperformed drastically I'd say.

And their 3 scorers are not only better at scoring, but they are also 2 way defenders. If you building around a player, it helps with team moral and team success to be defenders as well. Tatum is very tall but quick lateral movements like a guard. We all know about KP and J.Brown just got the bag because he’s one of the top 2 way players in the league. So it helps when you build around 2 way players vs 1 way complainers.

Have you noticed randles best impact games is when he puts his head down and plays his game vs complaining to refs on every possession. JB and RJ do not have this problem, but they are also not the best defender on the team at their position.

We have 4 guys better on defense than JB.
Several guys on the team better than RJ at his position.
Randles defense is not his strong point.

When you build a team like this, where your top 3 players are bad defenders, it’s extremely critical for your 3 iso players to be efficient scorers / playmakers.

blkexec wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:this is personale more than anything. There are some really bad teams near the top and some really good teams near the bottom. We are built more like BOS who is also near the bottom with three primary score first players.

If it ain't broke don't fix it, our offense has overperformed drastically I'd say.

And their 3 scorers are not only better at scoring, but they are also 2 way defenders. If you building around a player, it helps with team moral and team success to be defenders as well. Tatum is very tall but quick lateral movements like a guard. We all know about KP and J.Brown just got the bag because he’s one of the top 2 way players in the league. So it helps when you build around 2 way players vs 1 way complainers.

Have you noticed randles best impact games is when he puts his head down and plays his game vs complaining to refs on every possession. JB and RJ do not have this problem, but they are also not the best defender on the team at their position.

We have 4 guys better on defense than JB.
Several guys on the team better than RJ at his position.
Randles defense is not his strong point.

When you build a team like this, where your top 3 players are bad defenders, it’s extremely critical for your 3 iso players to be efficient scorers / playmakers.

Lol. Facts matter. Have you seen Boston play?
KP leads the league in Techs, Tatum is 4th, Brown is 12th. Bunch of whining babies

Share rate is ABSOLUTELY predicated on offensive scheme. Sure the coach has to take advantage of players skill set and tendencies but Thibs has always known as a coach that likes to ISO his mismatches. You look at a team like Miami and they run drive and kick ball rotation sets for most of game. Will say that if you look at most teams, they run mostly sets to allow their best players to create. This ain't the NCAA. One of the complaints many basketball fans about the NBA.

VDesai wrote:Bucks are at the bottom of the list and just put up the best offensive performance of the season against us.

Its not purely about the assist number, but the ball has to move when teams collapse on our ISOs. That's when we operate best. But you can also only get an assist when you make the shot.

Going back to LeBron's chip' in Cleveland. Every championship team was at least middle of the pack over a season in team assists.

We dont have to be elite like GS is year in and year out to contend. But we cant be consistently at the bottom of the pack either.

As other posters have mentioned, Thibs offense is ISO heavy.

nycericanguy wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

VDesai wrote:Bucks are at the bottom of the list and just put up the best offensive performance of the season against us.

Its not purely about the assist number, but the ball has to move when teams collapse on our ISOs. That's when we operate best. But you can also only get an assist when you make the shot.

Going back to LeBron's chip' in Cleveland. Every championship team was at least middle of the pack over a season in team assists.

We dont have to be elite like GS is year in and year out to contend. But we cant be consistently at the bottom of the pack either.

As other posters have mentioned, Thibs offense is ISO heavy.

i mean this is obviously not a championship roster as currently constructed and we don't have a Lebron or a Curry.

but we aren't an ISO heavy team.

And not for nothing, but every playoff team moves towards a more ISO heavy offense by finding mismatches and then taking advantages of them. That's the singular play within your offensive structure.

GustavBahler wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

VDesai wrote:Bucks are at the bottom of the list and just put up the best offensive performance of the season against us.

Its not purely about the assist number, but the ball has to move when teams collapse on our ISOs. That's when we operate best. But you can also only get an assist when you make the shot.

Going back to LeBron's chip' in Cleveland. Every championship team was at least middle of the pack over a season in team assists.

We dont have to be elite like GS is year in and year out to contend. But we cant be consistently at the bottom of the pack either.

As other posters have mentioned, Thibs offense is ISO heavy.

i mean this is obviously not a championship roster as currently constructed and we don't have a Lebron or a Curry.

but we aren't an ISO heavy team.

Compared to team assists we are. Championship teams are good to great at sharing the rock. Knicks have been at the bottom of the league for the last 4 years, at least. Not going to get past elite teams that way.

You dont need to wait for better players either to do a better job of finding the open man. Some of the worst teams in the league are elite at sharing the rock. Dont need a "Dream Team" to do a better job of moving the ball.

to get past the elite teams you need to be an elite team yourself.

we are a very good team but we are NOT an elite team, we are a tier below without that true top 5-10 player.

and that's ok, enjoy the ride, it's been a long time since we had good basketball at MSG.

and the great thing is we have plenty of room to grow either internally or via trade with all our assets.

GustavBahler wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

VDesai wrote:Bucks are at the bottom of the list and just put up the best offensive performance of the season against us.

Its not purely about the assist number, but the ball has to move when teams collapse on our ISOs. That's when we operate best. But you can also only get an assist when you make the shot.

Going back to LeBron's chip' in Cleveland. Every championship team was at least middle of the pack over a season in team assists.

We dont have to be elite like GS is year in and year out to contend. But we cant be consistently at the bottom of the pack either.

As other posters have mentioned, Thibs offense is ISO heavy.

i mean this is obviously not a championship roster as currently constructed and we don't have a Lebron or a Curry.

but we aren't an ISO heavy team.

Compared to team assists we are. Championship teams are good to great at sharing the rock. Knicks have been at the bottom of the league for the last 4 years, at least. Not going to get past elite teams that way.

You dont need to wait for better players either to do a better job of finding the open man. Some of the worst teams in the league are elite at sharing the rock. Dont need a "Dream Team" to do a better job of moving the ball.

to get past the elite teams you need to be an elite team yourself.

we are a very good team but we are NOT an elite team, we are a tier below without that true top 5-10 player.

and that's ok, enjoy the ride, it's been a long time since we had good basketball at MSG.

and the great thing is we have plenty of room to grow either internally or via trade with all our assets.

Your answer to every statistic. Every shortcoming this team has is that we dont have an elite player. You're implying that the team should not be expected to do a better job at anything at all until we get a star. Thats not how contenders are built.

Thats not a team a star wants to be traded to. Waiting for them to solve all their problems.

I mean yea that's basically it, to reach that next level we're going to need that truly elite player. It's not going to be b/c of any adjustment Thibs makes that unlocks another level. There is a ceiling to this roster and I think we have already been overachieving as is.

If you really want to go back and look at commonalities for previous championship teams, it's having a top 5 player more than anything.

nycericanguy wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

VDesai wrote:Bucks are at the bottom of the list and just put up the best offensive performance of the season against us.

Its not purely about the assist number, but the ball has to move when teams collapse on our ISOs. That's when we operate best. But you can also only get an assist when you make the shot.

Going back to LeBron's chip' in Cleveland. Every championship team was at least middle of the pack over a season in team assists.

We dont have to be elite like GS is year in and year out to contend. But we cant be consistently at the bottom of the pack either.

As other posters have mentioned, Thibs offense is ISO heavy.

i mean this is obviously not a championship roster as currently constructed and we don't have a Lebron or a Curry.

but we aren't an ISO heavy team.

Compared to team assists we are. Championship teams are good to great at sharing the rock. Knicks have been at the bottom of the league for the last 4 years, at least. Not going to get past elite teams that way.

You dont need to wait for better players either to do a better job of finding the open man. Some of the worst teams in the league are elite at sharing the rock. Dont need a "Dream Team" to do a better job of moving the ball.

to get past the elite teams you need to be an elite team yourself.

we are a very good team but we are NOT an elite team, we are a tier below without that true top 5-10 player.

and that's ok, enjoy the ride, it's been a long time since we had good basketball at MSG.

and the great thing is we have plenty of room to grow either internally or via trade with all our assets.

Your answer to every statistic. Every shortcoming this team has is that we dont have an elite player. You're implying that the team should not be expected to do a better job at anything at all until we get a star. Thats not how contenders are built.

Thats not a team a star wants to be traded to. Waiting for them to solve all their problems.

I mean yea that's basically it, to reach that next level we're going to need that truly elite player. It's not going to be b/c of any adjustment Thibs makes that unlocks another level. There is a ceiling to this roster and I think we have already been overachieving as is.

If you really want to go back and look at commonalities for previous championship teams, it's having a top 5 player more than anything.

Strongly disagree that we cant get any better. Benching Grimes would be a good start. Getting Mitch, one of the best lob threats in the league more involved. More minutes for IQ.

Its a defeatist attitude to suggest that this team as constructed cant improve through rotation changes, adjustments.

Thats how we made it to the second round last season, when Thibs soldified his rotation. If Thibs hadnt altered his plan, we might not have made it past the first round. Coaching is all about adjustments to what other teams are doing.

nycericanguy wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

VDesai wrote:Bucks are at the bottom of the list and just put up the best offensive performance of the season against us.

Its not purely about the assist number, but the ball has to move when teams collapse on our ISOs. That's when we operate best. But you can also only get an assist when you make the shot.

Going back to LeBron's chip' in Cleveland. Every championship team was at least middle of the pack over a season in team assists.

We dont have to be elite like GS is year in and year out to contend. But we cant be consistently at the bottom of the pack either.

As other posters have mentioned, Thibs offense is ISO heavy.

i mean this is obviously not a championship roster as currently constructed and we don't have a Lebron or a Curry.

but we aren't an ISO heavy team.

Compared to team assists we are. Championship teams are good to great at sharing the rock. Knicks have been at the bottom of the league for the last 4 years, at least. Not going to get past elite teams that way.

You dont need to wait for better players either to do a better job of finding the open man. Some of the worst teams in the league are elite at sharing the rock. Dont need a "Dream Team" to do a better job of moving the ball.

to get past the elite teams you need to be an elite team yourself.

we are a very good team but we are NOT an elite team, we are a tier below without that true top 5-10 player.

and that's ok, enjoy the ride, it's been a long time since we had good basketball at MSG.

and the great thing is we have plenty of room to grow either internally or via trade with all our assets.

Your answer to every statistic. Every shortcoming this team has is that we dont have an elite player. You're implying that the team should not be expected to do a better job at anything at all until we get a star. Thats not how contenders are built.

Thats not a team a star wants to be traded to. Waiting for them to solve all their problems.

I mean yea that's basically it, to reach that next level we're going to need that truly elite player. It's not going to be b/c of any adjustment Thibs makes that unlocks another level. There is a ceiling to this roster and I think we have already been overachieving as is.

If you really want to go back and look at commonalities for previous championship teams, it's having a top 5 player more than anything.

Strongly disagree that we cant get any better. Benching Grimes would be a good start. Getting Mitch, one of the best lob threats in the league more involved. More minutes for IQ.

Its a defeatist attitude to suggest that this team as constructed cant improve through rotation changes, adjustments.

Thats how we made it to the second round last season, when Thibs soldified his rotation. If Thibs hadnt altered his plan, we might not have made it past the first round. Coaching is all about adjustments to what other teams are doing.

no one's saying we can't get better, but we have squeezed alot out of this roster and any improvement is likely to be incremental, we're not going to drastically change the way we play when its worked so well.

To reach that elite level we will probably need a major talent upgrade.

You're saying repeatedly that anything Thibs does short of having an elite player wont make us elite. So its not worth discussing anything in between. Because this is the best they will get. I disagree that Thibs doesnt have enough talent on the roster to take another big step this season, without another star.

Will it get us all the way? Probably not. While getting a star might be the main thing on your mind right now when it comes to the Knicks. What Thibs does in the meantime. To make the most of what he has now, to be ready for the possible addition of an elite player. Is on my front burner as a fan. In the present. Plenty of room for both discussions.