gradyandrew wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Here is where guys start mentioning meaningless overvalued players from other teams and undervalue what we have.
Har on RJ but we absolutely do not trade him unless he is the key piece in bringing over a major star.

I can't help but think of what we were able to get for Obi. Two draft picks! Two second round picks! Two protected second round picks!

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2023_play-by-play.html

RJ only beat out Jaden Ivey and Jordan Nwora in on/off for 243rd worst in the league. That's why if the Knicks can trade him for anyone, it's a win.

At least 243 is better than 244 - there is that upside

LivingLegend wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Here is where guys start mentioning meaningless overvalued players from other teams and undervalue what we have.
Har on RJ but we absolutely do not trade him unless he is the key piece in bringing over a major star.

Why would anyone give you a major star for what has been a very mediocre player with overall poor analytics on both offense/defense?

We overvalue our own - it’s natural because we want them to succeed but a fair return for an RJ would be a solid / decent player.

Not even sure N.O. Would consider RJ for H Jones

Never said anyone would trade a star straight up for RJ.
Think you are underestimating what RJa value is.
Think it's not about overvaluing RJ. More like managing expectations. Most expected a superstar with such a high pick. RJ has a great ability to get to the basket. IF he can hit a three at decent click and improve his ability to .ake guys around him better, he will be elite. At 23, worth the chance over trading him for some other guy with question marks or a 31 year old journeyman.

And he can absolutely be a piece of a package to entice teams, who may be looking to realign, to give up a star. Mainly because of his age and his potential.

EwingsGlass wrote:
Well said. I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment.

What do you think they could get in return?

My first answer is "anyone" because the key would be giving RJs rotation spot to Josh Hart and then opening up more play time and shots for IQ and DDV. Knicks would have some issues on the bench in that scenario. Maybe Poku and Bertans from OKC could work. Bertans can play back up four and Poku would be more of a low risk flyer. I don't think OKC is going to have much space for Poku now that Holmgren is on board and maybe they can be convinced to build on the chemistry SGA and RJ showed this summer.

HofstraBBall wrote:
What stat are you looking at? Play by Play?
Is that what you think GMs are basing trade value on?

That's a fair question. Play by play is one stat but you can pretty much choose any other stat to show that RJ is the weak spot in the rotation and his shots and minutes would be better off going to anyone else. RJ is below average across the board leading to a player profile that's one of the worst across the league. 4 years in, it's increasingly looking like it's time to cut bait.

And hey, I'm not happy talking about any of it. I'd love to see RJ turn it around. The eye test shows there's a stiffness to his body that results in a slow release making it unlikely for him to ever develop a quick shot or be able to use screens effectively. He was once again a top 5 player in blocked shots showing he doesn't have the craft to get clean looks at the rim. If defense and the Kobe assists were a net positive, they'd show up somewhere in the stat line.

HofstraBBall wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:
What stat are you looking at? Play by Play?
Is that what you think GMs are basing trade value on?

That's a fair question. Play by play is one stat but you can pretty much choose any other stat to show that RJ is the weak spot in the rotation and his shots and minutes would be better off going to anyone else. RJ is below average across the board leading to a player profile that's one of the worst across the league. 4 years in, it's increasingly looking like it's time to cut bait.

And hey, I'm not happy talking about any of it. I'd love to see RJ turn it around. The eye test shows there's a stiffness to his body that results in a slow release making it unlikely for him to ever develop a quick shot or be able to use screens effectively. He was once again a top 5 player in blocked shots showing he doesn't have the craft to get clean looks at the rim. If defense and the Kobe assists were a net positive, they'd show up somewhere in the stat line.

Not disagreeing with you that RJ needs a lot to work on. Nor that he is a statistical leader. My view on RJ is pretty obvious. As my many negative RJ posts have shown. Would also be okay with him being traded. My disagreement comes when some start posting trade ideas that focus on dumping him rather than bringing back a better player with more potential
One thing about RJ is that we have all seen how he has the ability to be the best player on the floor. Did so many times for us in past years and most recently did so several times during FIBA. He is absolutely frustrating to watch at times. Has blinders often going to basket. Looks like a stat padder more than a good basketball player most of the time. But again, don't think we should give up a 23 year old that has shown elite promise for some other question mark or journeyman. I would be patient and include him in a bigger trade package for a difference maker. Imo, he is the player GMs will think has promise and has shown much potential. Despite what you and I think he will really turn into.

I actually did find a significant stat that suggests caution in trading RJ. Knicks were +8.6 per 100 possessions over 520 minutes of the starters playing. Knicks issue last year was with bench units. The preseason has shown a similar dynamic, maybe that was the real motivation in trading Obi.

HofstraBBall wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:
What stat are you looking at? Play by Play?
Is that what you think GMs are basing trade value on?

That's a fair question. Play by play is one stat but you can pretty much choose any other stat to show that RJ is the weak spot in the rotation and his shots and minutes would be better off going to anyone else. RJ is below average across the board leading to a player profile that's one of the worst across the league. 4 years in, it's increasingly looking like it's time to cut bait.

And hey, I'm not happy talking about any of it. I'd love to see RJ turn it around. The eye test shows there's a stiffness to his body that results in a slow release making it unlikely for him to ever develop a quick shot or be able to use screens effectively. He was once again a top 5 player in blocked shots showing he doesn't have the craft to get clean looks at the rim. If defense and the Kobe assists were a net positive, they'd show up somewhere in the stat line.

Not disagreeing with you that RJ needs a lot to work on. Nor that he is a statistical leader. My view on RJ is pretty obvious. As my many negative RJ posts have shown. Would also be okay with him being traded. My disagreement comes when some start posting trade ideas that focus on dumping him rather than bringing back a better player with more potential
One thing about RJ is that we have all seen how he has the ability to be the best player on the floor. Did so many times for us in past years and most recently did so several times during FIBA. He is absolutely frustrating to watch at times. Has blinders often going to basket. Looks like a stat padder more than a good basketball player most of the time. But again, don't think we should give up a 23 year old that has shown elite promise for some other question mark or journeyman. I would be patient and include him in a bigger trade package for a difference maker. Imo, he is the player GMs will think has promise and has shown much potential. Despite what you and I think he will really turn into.

Same as bolded. "Spitball" all the damn trades you want - but the "dump" mentality is corrosive. A year ago people were suggesting attaching multiple #1s with Randle for John Wall and the like. Then he made the all star game. Is proper forum etiquette to ignore such nonsense? Do we now pretend that wasn't a thing? Is it okay to constantly toss out such sentiments but a no no to challenge them?

RJ seems to occupy that seat on the "dislike" train at the moment, though with not near the same vehemence. Does it really matter? Well, besides being annoying there was a time when Knicks FO gave in to this fan/press toxicity and put the team on the path that we are finally recovering from. The current one has shown so far to be impervious to this urgency. And of course anyone can be traded. Just no reason to be stupid about it.

KnickDanger wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:
What stat are you looking at? Play by Play?
Is that what you think GMs are basing trade value on?

That's a fair question. Play by play is one stat but you can pretty much choose any other stat to show that RJ is the weak spot in the rotation and his shots and minutes would be better off going to anyone else. RJ is below average across the board leading to a player profile that's one of the worst across the league. 4 years in, it's increasingly looking like it's time to cut bait.

And hey, I'm not happy talking about any of it. I'd love to see RJ turn it around. The eye test shows there's a stiffness to his body that results in a slow release making it unlikely for him to ever develop a quick shot or be able to use screens effectively. He was once again a top 5 player in blocked shots showing he doesn't have the craft to get clean looks at the rim. If defense and the Kobe assists were a net positive, they'd show up somewhere in the stat line.

Not disagreeing with you that RJ needs a lot to work on. Nor that he is a statistical leader. My view on RJ is pretty obvious. As my many negative RJ posts have shown. Would also be okay with him being traded. My disagreement comes when some start posting trade ideas that focus on dumping him rather than bringing back a better player with more potential
One thing about RJ is that we have all seen how he has the ability to be the best player on the floor. Did so many times for us in past years and most recently did so several times during FIBA. He is absolutely frustrating to watch at times. Has blinders often going to basket. Looks like a stat padder more than a good basketball player most of the time. But again, don't think we should give up a 23 year old that has shown elite promise for some other question mark or journeyman. I would be patient and include him in a bigger trade package for a difference maker. Imo, he is the player GMs will think has promise and has shown much potential. Despite what you and I think he will really turn into.

Same as bolded. "Spitball" all the damn trades you want - but the "dump" mentality is corrosive. A year ago people were suggesting attaching multiple #1s with Randle for John Wall and the like. Then he made the all star game. Is proper forum etiquette to ignore such nonsense? Do we now pretend that wasn't a thing? Is it okay to constantly toss out such sentiments but a no no to challenge them?

RJ seems to occupy that seat on the "dislike" train at the moment, though with not near the same vehemence. Does it really matter? Well, besides being annoying there was a time when Knicks FO gave in to this fan/press toxicity and put the team on the path that we are finally recovering from. The current one has shown so far to be impervious to this urgency. And of course anyone can be traded. Just no reason to be stupid about it.

I think this stems back to my original question - what would you trade him for? I don't think GA is wrong in his statistical analysis - last season. I think we are all just anxious to see if he can take that Wiggins style leap. I think he needs to keep putting the work in.

BUT.

I only really watched the T-Wolves matchup. He seemed to do a better job of moving without the ball and moving the ball. I actually am hopeful he has a breakout season. Maybe get that Kobe assist nonsense out of his head and just get the regular assists.

Simply put, replace last year's Barrett with a statistically average player and the Knicks are better. That player can be this year's Barrett.

Almost time to find out...

EwingsGlass wrote:Not for nothing, this year he isn’t starting out slow. Two games against two solid defensive teams and he is averaging 25points on 50% from the floor with 40% from 3 and 85% from FT line. I mean. If that’s what we have been waiting for, I may have been a bit impatient but damn I hope it continues.

So don't trade him?