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There can be only one. Who you keeping IQ or Grimes
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Rookie
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7/14/2023  11:37 AM
I want to keep both but can you really play your back up PG 20M? There was a report of extension talks with IQ and that the Knicks would be OK with 20M, but is IQ accepting that? If that is not enough, can you pay him more than your starting PG who had an Allstar level year? Grimes is under control for another year after this season and doesn't project to be in the same contract $$ range as IQ. Players like Grimes are extremely valuable on playoff teams and we might have already signed IQ's replacement on a very reasonable 4yr contract.

The problem here is what value can you get for an IQ trade? If he doesn't agree to an extension I assume his bird rights would transfer but letting him become an RFA is still a risk. If he does agree to an extension, can he still be traded even if he wants the rookie max?

The only thing I can really wrap my head around is that IQ is not going to be a Knick beyond this season. I'm keeping Grimes
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KnickDanger
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7/14/2023  12:06 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/14/2023  12:07 PM
A question we've bounced around especially since the DDV signing - tough one. I'd say IQ is the better player right now and seems to me has that extra spark that I don't know if Grimes has. But conceivably Grimes has only scratched the surface. And financially no big commitments or decisions on him need to be made right now. I assume IQ would get the bigger return n a trade based on performance up to now. But barring a big splash trade, which the current FO doesn't inclined to do, I think they hold their hand for the time being.
SupremeCommander
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7/14/2023  2:18 PM
IQ, not even close for me.

I like what Grimes brings to the table, he has one of the best defensive plays in team history in the playoffs... but I feel like his skillset is easier to replace.

IQ's flaws are apparent to me, but I also think he is constantly improving. I believe IQ's comp is Lou Williams, who always got chased away by teams because of his limitations, but that dude was a freaking baller. That's how I feel about IQ

Sambakick wrote: Gives a whole new meaning to "Jazz Hands"
MaTT4281
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7/14/2023  3:09 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/14/2023  3:09 PM
Team Quick, 100%. We tout Grimes' defense, but Quickley does not get nearly enough recognition on that end. Couple that with his rebounding and ball handling (which continues to improve as he's learned to maintain his dribble), he's just more multidimensional to me. For much of the season, he was our 3rd best player, and came up big when needed. A bad stretch in the post-season hasn't ruined that for me.

I think the closer battle is between RJ/Grimes, although I still side with RJ (if he could just hit those layups and those free throws consistently!!!)
blkexec
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7/14/2023  3:57 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/14/2023  3:59 PM
My choice is whoever play PG.

Grimes vs Hart
Grimes vs RJ

But IQ is our only reliable PG on the team behind JB, so it's a no brainer.

As far as the SG position, still a no brainer. IQ impact both ends. Grimes is hit or miss on offense. Defense is a wash.

Backup PG is a need. Grimes is stuck in a log jam of guards. And out of all the guards, most play multiple positions. Grimes is strickly a 2 guard. RJ has more size and Hart plays bigger so they can play SF. IQ is a SG with PG capabilities.

I think the comparison is:

Grimes vs DDV

Eitherway, the second unit will be fun to start the season. I can see Thibs rolling with the same starting 5. If so that second unit will be fun to watch.

Starters
1. JB
2. Grimes
3. RJ
4. Randle
5. Mitch

Bench
6. IQ
7. DDV
8. Hart
Open (RJ, Sims, Roby, Toppin)
9. iHart

Looks like Thibs famous nine man rotation to me, with RJ running with second unit.

Where does McBride fit? Several DNPs or G-League again? How long before McBride gets frustrated?

Born in Brooklyn, Raised in Queens, Lives in Maryland. The future is bright, I'm a Knicks fan for life!
fishmike
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7/14/2023  5:27 PM
first you resign IQ. Then you resign Grimes if he continues to progress. He's an elite defender with a killer first step. This is not an issue
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
GustavBahler
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7/14/2023  6:46 PM
I was ok with IQ being traded in a big deal for a star. But after watching Obi traded for a couple of crappy 2nd rounders. The FO talking about a deal for Paul George. Im hoping the FO gives IQ a new contract. As much as Im a fan of Grimes, IQ is putting up elite numbers on offense and defense.

Quickely is a legit 20 point plus starting PG or SG. Grimes is a few years off from getting to that level, if ever. There is a versatility to IQ's game that will be very hard to replicate, without a star player coming back. The article has another chart I couldnt copy. Grimes is on the list as well.

https://www.sportico.com/leagues/basketball/2023/quickley-bane-best-nba-contracts-2023-1234719504/


Using 2022-23 salaries and an all-in-one metric created by Krishna Narsu of BBall Index, Sportico calculated the 10 NBA players who provided wins over a replacement player at the cheapest cost this regular season. The metric, measuring on-court impact, combines some of the best publicly available advanced stats: EPM, LEBRON, DARKO and BPM-LARAPM (which is Basketball Reference’s BPM used as a prior in luck-adjusted RAPM).


New York Knicks’ third-year guard Immanuel Quickley tops the rankings with 6.25 wins added despite earning just $2.3 million in salary. Quickley, like three other players—Austin Reaves, Herbert Jones and Desmond Bane—also made Sportico’s 2021-22 list.

Quickley was known to be a shooter when he was drafted late in the first round in 2020, but because he was considered undersized, analysts failed to predict his enormous defensive impact. Quickley is alert, active and communicative on that end, smartly anticipating opponents’ plays, and his 6-foot-8 wingspan makes up for his slender 190-pound frame. 

According to Cleaning the Glass, the Knicks allow 12.0 fewer points per 100 possessions when Quickley is on the floor versus when he is on the bench. That figure leads the league among players with at least 1,500 minutes, and former Defensive Player of the Year Draymond Green ranks second. Statistics like this can be noisy, but New York’s defense was also 3.6 and 6.1 points better, respectively, with him in the game in each of his first two seasons. 

After being included in trade rumors for several months to start this season, Quickley is now a leading candidate for Sixth Man of the Year, but he’s played even better in a larger role. In 21 games as a starter, he’s averaged 22.6 points, 5.1 assists and 5.4 rebounds per game on 60.5% true shooting, and the Knicks are 12-9 in those games despite missing guard Jalen Brunson for many of them

Largest Defensive On/Off Swings 2022-23

110.0120.0

Immanuel Quickley

−12.0

Draymond Green

−9.8

Brook Lopez

−9.3

Franz Wagner

−7.4

Anthony Davis

−7.0

Alex Caruso

−6.9

Derrick White

−6.7

Nikola Jokic

−6.1

Aaron Gordon

−6.1

Jrue Holiday

−5.9

Defensive Rating On|

Defensive Rating Off|

Defensive rating is points allowed per 100 possessions.
Minimum 1,500 minutes

Chart: Lev Akabas  Source: Cleaning the Glass
GustavBahler
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7/14/2023  7:00 PM
https://clutchpoints.com/2023-sixth-man-of-the-year-top-three-candidates-ranked

Originally thought of as a one-note microwave scorer when he entered the league, Quickley instead blossomed into a true two-way player, battening down the hatches on defense with just as much as skill as he opened up New York's offense. Averaging 14.9 points, 4.2 rebounds and 3.4 assists in 28.9 points per game, Quickley's box score production is a skosh below Brogdon's, but his advanced stats and on/off splits paint him as an elite guard, sixth man or otherwise. With Quickley on the court, the Knicks outscored opponents by 6.46 points per 100 possessions, the equivalent of the best team in the league; when he sat, they were outscored by 2.05 points per 100 possessions, the equivalent of a lottery outfit. And if you don't believe us that Quickley should win, just ask Damian Lillard
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KnickDanger
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7/14/2023  7:09 PM
Of course the question wasn’t who is better - that is clearly IQ. The question is who are you keeping? All things considered though and after reading these posts it does feel like IQ should be the most untouchable Knick after Brunson. The other question would be is that how the FO feels?
Swishfm3
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7/14/2023  8:59 PM
This is tough…but if this is the options, I think you have to go with I. Quickly.

BUT

I would much rather the Knicks keep both and move Barrett.
BRIGGS
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7/14/2023  11:12 PM
KnickDanger wrote:Of course the question wasn’t who is better - that is clearly IQ. The question is who are you keeping? All things considered though and after reading these posts it does feel like IQ should be the most untouchable Knick after Brunson. The other question would be is that how the FO feels?

Realistically Brunson and IQ(at his best) play the same position.

RIP Crushalot😞
Philc1
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7/15/2023  8:27 AM
Grimes. We should be shopping IQ now either to get picks or in a package for an upgrade
Philc1
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7/15/2023  8:28 AM
BRIGGS wrote:
KnickDanger wrote:Of course the question wasn’t who is better - that is clearly IQ. The question is who are you keeping? All things considered though and after reading these posts it does feel like IQ should be the most untouchable Knick after Brunson. The other question would be is that how the FO feels?

Realistically Brunson and IQ(at his best) play the same position.

IQ can run point and do the job when Brunson sits but ideally he’s a 2-Guard
HofstraBBall
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7/19/2023  10:30 AM    LAST EDITED: 7/19/2023  10:37 AM
blkexec wrote:My choice is whoever play PG.

Grimes vs Hart
Grimes vs RJ

But IQ is our only reliable PG on the team behind JB, so it's a no brainer.

As far as the SG position, still a no brainer. IQ impact both ends. Grimes is hit or miss on offense. Defense is a wash.

Backup PG is a need. Grimes is stuck in a log jam of guards. And out of all the guards, most play multiple positions. Grimes is strickly a 2 guard. RJ has more size and Hart plays bigger so they can play SF. IQ is a SG with PG capabilities.

I think the comparison is:

Grimes vs DDV

Eitherway, the second unit will be fun to start the season. I can see Thibs rolling with the same starting 5. If so that second unit will be fun to watch.

Starters
1. JB
2. Grimes
3. RJ
4. Randle
5. Mitch

Bench
6. IQ
7. DDV
8. Hart
Open (RJ, Sims, Roby, Toppin)
9. iHart

Looks like Thibs famous nine man rotation to me, with RJ running with second unit.

Where does McBride fit? Several DNPs or G-League again? How long before McBride gets frustrated?

Blk, what about Mcbribe's regular season play, besides your endless rah rah hope for him, has shown that he deserves to be part of a NBA playoff rotation?
Kid has shown that his confidence level is not up to par with true NBA rotation players. Which btw, I am sure is the same in practices. Just does not have the aggressiveness or cold nerves needed. Agree that he has shown signs in G league but have seen this type of player in my days many times. Good but does not have the belief that he is at same level as other good players. Afraid to swing for the fences and fail. Just vanilla when given the chance. Something that keeps the fringe players from making it. Kid has talent. He can play D but so can most good defensive players in the G League. Their have been many who had talent but missed other important qualities needed to excel at that high level. In terms of Knicks future, don't understand wasting time on guys that are obvious borderline NBA players. Except for the fact fans hope that their longshot picks make it.

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
blkexec
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7/19/2023  11:12 AM
HofstraBBall wrote:
blkexec wrote:My choice is whoever play PG.

Grimes vs Hart
Grimes vs RJ

But IQ is our only reliable PG on the team behind JB, so it's a no brainer.

As far as the SG position, still a no brainer. IQ impact both ends. Grimes is hit or miss on offense. Defense is a wash.

Backup PG is a need. Grimes is stuck in a log jam of guards. And out of all the guards, most play multiple positions. Grimes is strickly a 2 guard. RJ has more size and Hart plays bigger so they can play SF. IQ is a SG with PG capabilities.

I think the comparison is:

Grimes vs DDV

Eitherway, the second unit will be fun to start the season. I can see Thibs rolling with the same starting 5. If so that second unit will be fun to watch.

Starters
1. JB
2. Grimes
3. RJ
4. Randle
5. Mitch

Bench
6. IQ
7. DDV
8. Hart
Open (RJ, Sims, Roby, Toppin)
9. iHart

Looks like Thibs famous nine man rotation to me, with RJ running with second unit.

Where does McBride fit? Several DNPs or G-League again? How long before McBride gets frustrated?

Blk, what about Mcbribe's regular season play, besides your endless rah rah hope for him, has shown that he deserves to be part of a NBA playoff rotation?
Kid has shown that his confidence level is not up to par with true NBA rotation players. Which btw, I am sure is the same in practices. Just does not have the aggressiveness or cold nerves needed. Agree that he has shown signs in G league but have seen this type of player in my days many times. Good but does not have the belief that he is at same level as other good players. Afraid to swing for the fences and fail. Just vanilla when given the chance. Something that keeps the fringe players from making it. Kid has talent. He can play D but so can most good defensive players in the G League. Their have been many who had talent but missed other important qualities needed to excel at that high level. In terms of Knicks future, don't understand wasting time on guys that are obvious borderline NBA players. Except for the fact fans hope that their longshot picks make it.

I will always have “rah rah rah” hopes for lockdown defenders, that will never change.

Also back then he was getting zero mins. Need to see him in action before passing judgement. That was my take. Right now we are past that point and it’s clear to Thibs he’s not better than JB or IQ. So he’s 3rd string which has been the case since D.Rose was bench for him. Thibs saw something to bench his godson.

Right now he’s a practice player who will apply defensive pressure on JB and IQ which will help them in real games. We also giving him PT when someone is hurt and in the g league. There are teams that see his value and trade rumors have been floating around all off season.

So I’m still a fan, if that’s what your asking.

Some see value in EF who’s the polar opposite and others see value in Deuce who’s the opposite but just as valuable to me. Right now both EF and Deuce are on the outside looking in. It’s Thibs world and everybody is just trying to fit in.

I believe defense is something you just have it or not. Offense is something you can acquire. Only time will tell if Deuce offense catches up with his defense. We’ve seen in before in the nba and even in local parks. Not sure the Knicks is the best situation for deuce to gain confidence on offense. Might need a change in scenery.

Born in Brooklyn, Raised in Queens, Lives in Maryland. The future is bright, I'm a Knicks fan for life!
Rookie
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7/19/2023  11:42 AM
With the new TV deal I can’t wait to see 2024-25 cap projections. A jump of 30-40M is entirely possible and would be a game changer. We would start to see 300M max contracts
foosballnick
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7/19/2023  12:48 PM
Rookie wrote:With the new TV deal I can’t wait to see 2024-25 cap projections. A jump of 30-40M is entirely possible and would be a game changer. We would start to see 300M max contracts

Reported that the new CBA has a Cap Smoothing provision which will limit annual CAP increases to 10% of then current cap level. https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/271018/New-NBA-CBA-Includes-Cap-Smoothing-Provision
fishmike
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7/19/2023  2:04 PM
I hate the premise of this thread. The strength of this team is it's deep youth and ascending players. We finally got guys on the up and now it's "you can only choose one"

Phuck that I'm keeping both. They are nothing alike. Grimes is an elite m2m defender and has a first step and athleticism that IQ does not. IQ has showed elite team defense and a diverse scoring game that Grimes has not. Both excellent defenders and perfect culture fits. The only way they dont resigned is in a trade for a higher end piece

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Rookie
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7/19/2023  3:03 PM
foosballnick wrote:
Rookie wrote:With the new TV deal I can’t wait to see 2024-25 cap projections. A jump of 30-40M is entirely possible and would be a game changer. We would start to see 300M max contracts

Reported that the new CBA has a Cap Smoothing provision which will limit annual CAP increases to 10% of then current cap level. https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/271018/New-NBA-CBA-Includes-Cap-Smoothing-Provision

So basically

2023/34 136M
2024/25 150.2M
2025/26 165.2M

0r, projections without smoothing were that the cap would go to 170M in 2024/25. With smoothing, it would take 2 years to get there. If we allow Fournier expire and sign IQ to 25M and allow for 2 FRP's out of the lottery we are right atone the cap again, maybe slightly over. The next season we could re-sign Grimes and stay around the cap again as long as he signs for around 15M

Realistically, we could keep both and manage the cap but we wouldn't be able to sign any free agents above the league minimum.

Scenario 2 would be packaging IQ with Fournier and FRP's to trade for an Allstar level player.
Rookie
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7/19/2023  3:10 PM
fishmike wrote:I hate the premise of this thread. The strength of this team is it's deep youth and ascending players. We finally got guys on the up and now it's "you can only choose one"

Phuck that I'm keeping both. They are nothing alike. Grimes is an elite m2m defender and has a first step and athleticism that IQ does not. IQ has showed elite team defense and a diverse scoring game that Grimes has not. Both excellent defenders and perfect culture fits. The only way they dont resigned is in a trade for a higher end piece

If you keep both, how do you improve the roster under the cap and how do you distribute minutes with the addition of DiVincenzo. We can pair one of them with Fournier's expiring and FRP's to add an Allstar level player is also an option I listed. I'm just exploring the options. I still think IQ will be traded by the trade deadline as long as the right player is available and it isn't an overpay. Otherwise, we rolling with both. It's just a discussion dude, don't shoot :)
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