stillafan wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

DLeethal wrote:To me Barrett and OG are players of similar stature, OG stock is probably higher because his skillset is more highly in demand Ala Mikel Bridge-esque. Barrett being a scorer who can't hit jumpshots is a tough skillset in this league.

That said, Barrett is significantly younger, locked up on a reasonable deal, one of a handful of players who would love the idea of playing in Canada, and we shouldn't have to package a bunch of picks with him to get OG IMO. I would swap and add a first but RJ + 3 firsts seems very extreme to me.

OG would be a great skillset to add to the mix with Brunson and Randle though, OG, Grimes, Mitch would make us a elite tier defensive team IMO.

agreed, OG is more valued, but when you start looking at his injury history, the fact that he and the TOR starters played a ton of minutes so his stats are a bit inflated. the fact that he will command 30M+, and the fact that he almost never gets to the FT line and doesn't pressure the rim as much as RJ does.

I mean you can make a good case that IQ is already better than OG.

So while I like OG I don't see the fit here, he'd cost more than he's worth. unless you think he has a Mikal type trajectory. but i dont see that either, he's a guy with 6 seasons under his belt and 400 games played, I think this is who he is. And while that's a good player, it's not worth what he'd command in terms of $ and assets.

IQ, Grimes and RJ could all end up being better than OG as soon as next year.

I think you are taking his average salary over the 4 year extension? Actually a bit higher, from the new rules it appears he can sign for 4/116.9 which is 140% of his 18.6 deal he's on presently. So for quick math calculated just over 2m per year increases and he's getting around 26m to start basically maybe a tad over. Two years after RJ's deal with the cap up around 20% that is acutally less proportuniately then RJ? You agree? RJ at 24m +20% = just under 29m?

My take nycer is Randle is going nowhere, Jalen in going nowhere, OG fits like a glove for now over RJ. I think your putting too much emphasis on attacking the rim when you have players like Randle and Jalen with high usage and IQ who likes to attack the rim or at least his floater game.

I can't speak for Jalen but if i'm him as a PG, I want a guy to help me on defense, take some pressure off and be confident he hits the open the threes. The only thing is RJ's age, his contract and potential but I don't think on defense he ever gets to OG's level, that would be amazing though.

RJ is 4/107m and part of that was based on potential off his 1st 3 seasons.

OG you're gonna pay probably 4/120 minimum and that's based on who he is because with 6 seasons under his belt he likely is who he is.

Attaching the rim is crucial in the playoffs. RJ was huge for us in that sense, he attempted almost 6 FT's per game at a time when we had nothing but Brunson.

Ultimately the risk/reward just isn't there. OG doesn't put us over the top because he's a role player. That's what it comes down to.

You talk about guys like DM, Lavine, KAT,... those are guys that make or are in the convo for the all star game every year. and while i dont care too much for those accolades OG is a guy that is never even in the CONVO for an all star game, let alone making one. and that's telling.

We simply can't go ALL IN for another role player.

RJ, Grimes and IQ all have more potential than OG IMO.

EwingPSD wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

EwingPSD wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

EwingPSD wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:Apparently we are offering StarJ, Fournier and two first round picks. I wonder if Toronto would bite. RJ is a late developer and had a strong outing in the playoffs. He was 3rd best player behind Brunson and Randle on a team that got to the 2 round and showed a little fight in that Heat series. I don't have a problem if we keep RJ but somehow OG might be that missing piece.

RJ and Fournier is a lot of money. RJ makes more than OG alone. Would it be a bigger deal?

For now. If I remember correctly, OG wants 150 mil plus for his next contract.

I like Barrett but strongly disagree with the opinion that he has star potential bc he gets to the rim and he just needs to make more of those shots. Not all rim looks are good looks. Barrett excelled post season when he’s shot the ball less and drove to pass a lot more. In the playoffs Barrett passed out of drives 50% of the time verse 28% RS. Too often Barrett take an extra dribble into to teeth of the defense and forces a very difficult “rim look”. If he makes a jump I bet it’s bc he gets to the rim less and passes more.

Who said he had star potential because of that? Martin said OG had an elite skill and RJ didn't. He does. He gets to the rim at will. That is an elite skill. Just because either OG or RJ have an elite skill, that doesn't mean they have star potential.

Steve Kerr had an elite skill. Rod Strickland had one too. Mark Jackson had one. McBride has one too.

I still disagree. I don’t think running into trees is an elite skill. I think if OG put his head down like Jerome Bettis he’d get to the rim a lot too. He gets to the rim by forcing it. That’s why he’s has a lot of trouble finishing.

The decision making comes with experience. He averaged just under 3 assists per game. For passing you are talking about an extra assist per game or so. The finishing has always been an issue got better in the playoffs and even pulled some Jalen Brunson moves once or twice.

I disagree that getting to the rim is not a skill it most definately is, especially when the other team knows it's coming and can't stop it. I'll agree to disagree on that. But I think you brill see steady improvement every year from this kid, given the opportunity.

Idk, during the regular season he passed on 28% of this drives in the playoffs it was something like 48%. I am not talking about assists. I am talking about passing the ball. It doesn't have to be a homerun pass. He also took 15 shots a game in the playoff down from 16 in the regular season. Not a huge drop but look at when he he played really well. He finished the Cavs series great. In games 3,4, and 5 he took 12, 18, and 13 shots.

In his playoff push his quality of shots was better. I can live with anyone taking 20 shots if they are quality shots. His drives to the rim looked more under control. He played smoother. There were also many times he made the extra pass in that series

My opinion, Barrett has been through alot. He is a player who plays better the more he is used. I don't think him being the 3rd option lends itself to maximizing his skill. Brunson and Randle are both currently better but Barrett just turned 23 and when he has been given a lead role he has performed well, so I think he has it in him.

nycericanguy wrote:

stillafan wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

DLeethal wrote:To me Barrett and OG are players of similar stature, OG stock is probably higher because his skillset is more highly in demand Ala Mikel Bridge-esque. Barrett being a scorer who can't hit jumpshots is a tough skillset in this league.

That said, Barrett is significantly younger, locked up on a reasonable deal, one of a handful of players who would love the idea of playing in Canada, and we shouldn't have to package a bunch of picks with him to get OG IMO. I would swap and add a first but RJ + 3 firsts seems very extreme to me.

OG would be a great skillset to add to the mix with Brunson and Randle though, OG, Grimes, Mitch would make us a elite tier defensive team IMO.

agreed, OG is more valued, but when you start looking at his injury history, the fact that he and the TOR starters played a ton of minutes so his stats are a bit inflated. the fact that he will command 30M+, and the fact that he almost never gets to the FT line and doesn't pressure the rim as much as RJ does.

I mean you can make a good case that IQ is already better than OG.

So while I like OG I don't see the fit here, he'd cost more than he's worth. unless you think he has a Mikal type trajectory. but i dont see that either, he's a guy with 6 seasons under his belt and 400 games played, I think this is who he is. And while that's a good player, it's not worth what he'd command in terms of $ and assets.

IQ, Grimes and RJ could all end up being better than OG as soon as next year.

I think you are taking his average salary over the 4 year extension? Actually a bit higher, from the new rules it appears he can sign for 4/116.9 which is 140% of his 18.6 deal he's on presently. So for quick math calculated just over 2m per year increases and he's getting around 26m to start basically maybe a tad over. Two years after RJ's deal with the cap up around 20% that is acutally less proportuniately then RJ? You agree? RJ at 24m +20% = just under 29m?

My take nycer is Randle is going nowhere, Jalen in going nowhere, OG fits like a glove for now over RJ. I think your putting too much emphasis on attacking the rim when you have players like Randle and Jalen with high usage and IQ who likes to attack the rim or at least his floater game.

I can't speak for Jalen but if i'm him as a PG, I want a guy to help me on defense, take some pressure off and be confident he hits the open the threes. The only thing is RJ's age, his contract and potential but I don't think on defense he ever gets to OG's level, that would be amazing though.

RJ is 4/107m and part of that was based on potential off his 1st 3 seasons.

OG you're gonna pay probably 4/120 minimum and that's based on who he is because with 6 seasons under his belt he likely is who he is.

Attaching the rim is crucial in the playoffs. RJ was huge for us in that sense, he attempted almost 6 FT's per game at a time when we had nothing but Brunson.

Ultimately the risk/reward just isn't there. OG doesn't put us over the top because he's a role player. That's what it comes down to.

You talk about guys like DM, Lavine, KAT,... those are guys that make or are in the convo for the all star game every year. and while i dont care too much for those accolades OG is a guy that is never even in the CONVO for an all star game, let alone making one. and that's telling.

We simply can't go ALL IN for another role player.

RJ, Grimes and IQ all have more potential than OG IMO.

I get your thought but I also like fit, we have all witnessed DM playing now on two teams both with small PG's who actually play better defense than Jalen. We have no way of knowing this but going all in on a player like DM may be a huge failure? Everything is a risk. My feeling is with Jalen, DM became less a priority, he may still be on the Knicks wish list but you better have a great defender at the SF spot because now your asking for Jalen, DM, Randle and RJ to play defense as a unit? I can see Mitch getting a ton of fouls, but that is projecting and I'm just giving my take.

Lastly how is signing a player that holds value as we've seen around the nba locking us in or going all in? Can't if a stud becomes available move him in the package?

stillafan wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

stillafan wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

DLeethal wrote:To me Barrett and OG are players of similar stature, OG stock is probably higher because his skillset is more highly in demand Ala Mikel Bridge-esque. Barrett being a scorer who can't hit jumpshots is a tough skillset in this league.

That said, Barrett is significantly younger, locked up on a reasonable deal, one of a handful of players who would love the idea of playing in Canada, and we shouldn't have to package a bunch of picks with him to get OG IMO. I would swap and add a first but RJ + 3 firsts seems very extreme to me.

OG would be a great skillset to add to the mix with Brunson and Randle though, OG, Grimes, Mitch would make us a elite tier defensive team IMO.

agreed, OG is more valued, but when you start looking at his injury history, the fact that he and the TOR starters played a ton of minutes so his stats are a bit inflated. the fact that he will command 30M+, and the fact that he almost never gets to the FT line and doesn't pressure the rim as much as RJ does.

I mean you can make a good case that IQ is already better than OG.

So while I like OG I don't see the fit here, he'd cost more than he's worth. unless you think he has a Mikal type trajectory. but i dont see that either, he's a guy with 6 seasons under his belt and 400 games played, I think this is who he is. And while that's a good player, it's not worth what he'd command in terms of $ and assets.

IQ, Grimes and RJ could all end up being better than OG as soon as next year.

I think you are taking his average salary over the 4 year extension? Actually a bit higher, from the new rules it appears he can sign for 4/116.9 which is 140% of his 18.6 deal he's on presently. So for quick math calculated just over 2m per year increases and he's getting around 26m to start basically maybe a tad over. Two years after RJ's deal with the cap up around 20% that is acutally less proportuniately then RJ? You agree? RJ at 24m +20% = just under 29m?

My take nycer is Randle is going nowhere, Jalen in going nowhere, OG fits like a glove for now over RJ. I think your putting too much emphasis on attacking the rim when you have players like Randle and Jalen with high usage and IQ who likes to attack the rim or at least his floater game.

I can't speak for Jalen but if i'm him as a PG, I want a guy to help me on defense, take some pressure off and be confident he hits the open the threes. The only thing is RJ's age, his contract and potential but I don't think on defense he ever gets to OG's level, that would be amazing though.

RJ is 4/107m and part of that was based on potential off his 1st 3 seasons.

OG you're gonna pay probably 4/120 minimum and that's based on who he is because with 6 seasons under his belt he likely is who he is.

Attaching the rim is crucial in the playoffs. RJ was huge for us in that sense, he attempted almost 6 FT's per game at a time when we had nothing but Brunson.

Ultimately the risk/reward just isn't there. OG doesn't put us over the top because he's a role player. That's what it comes down to.

You talk about guys like DM, Lavine, KAT,... those are guys that make or are in the convo for the all star game every year. and while i dont care too much for those accolades OG is a guy that is never even in the CONVO for an all star game, let alone making one. and that's telling.

We simply can't go ALL IN for another role player.

RJ, Grimes and IQ all have more potential than OG IMO.

I get your thought but I also like fit, we have all witnessed DM playing now on two teams both with small PG's who actually play better defense than Jalen. We have no way of knowing this but going all in on a player like DM may be a huge failure? Everything is a risk. My feeling is with Jalen, DM became less a priority, he may still be on the Knicks wish list but you better have a great defender at the SF spot because now your asking for Jalen, DM, Randle and RJ to play defense as a unit? I can see Mitch getting a ton of fouls, but that is projecting and I'm just giving my take.

Lastly how is signing a player that holds value as we've seen around the nba locking us in or going all in? Can't if a stud becomes available move him in the package?

players lose value, especially at a higher contract/age. There's a very real world where OG in a year or 2 at 27/28 years old making 30-35m and perhaps underwhelming in NY or getting injured again, becomes a net negative in terms of value, or loses alot of value.

OG isn't a superstar or even a star that will always hold value, role players can become negative assets easily if you overpay them and they cant stay on the court.

Meanwhile, guys like Jimmy Butler, Embiid, KAT, the whole Suns Clippers Memphis starting lineup, AD, LeBron, MPJ, Jamal Murray... I could go on.

OG is not outside the norm or risk category no more than the above guys and teams.

martin wrote:I don't follow Toronto or OG enough but think the injury concern is a bit over emphasized. 6 years in the league, been detrimentally injured for 2 (missing about 30 games) but that others are not outside too much of the norm.

Meanwhile, guys like Jimmy Butler, Embiid, KAT, the whole Suns Clippers Memphis starting lineup, AD, LeBron, MPJ, Jamal Murray... I could go on.

OG is not outside the norm or risk category no more than the above guys and teams.

its a bit concerning to miss so many games in your early 20's.

I mean it's not a HUGE concern, but it's in direct contrast to guys like RJ & IQ. Them being available every game has value.

DLeethal wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

DLeethal wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

DLeethal wrote:To me Barrett and OG are players of similar stature, OG stock is probably higher because his skillset is more highly in demand Ala Mikel Bridge-esque. Barrett being a scorer who can't hit jumpshots is a tough skillset in this league.

That said, Barrett is significantly younger, locked up on a reasonable deal, one of a handful of players who would love the idea of playing in Canada, and we shouldn't have to package a bunch of picks with him to get OG IMO. I would swap and add a first but RJ + 3 firsts seems very extreme to me.

OG would be a great skillset to add to the mix with Brunson and Randle though, OG, Grimes, Mitch would make us a elite tier defensive team IMO.

agreed, OG is more valued, but when you start looking at his injury history, the fact that he and the TOR starters played a ton of minutes so his stats are a bit inflated. the fact that he will command 30M+, and the fact that he almost never gets to the FT line and doesn't pressure the rim as much as RJ does.

I mean you can make a good case that IQ is already better than OG.

So while I like OG I don't see the fit here, he'd cost more than he's worth. unless you think he has a Mikal type trajectory. but i dont see that either, he's a guy with 6 seasons under his belt and 400 games played, I think this is who he is. And while that's a good player, it's not worth what he'd command in terms of $ and assets.

IQ, Grimes and RJ could all end up being better than OG as soon as next year.

Not really worried about what OG can't do i.e. rim pressure because we have guys who do that already which makes a lot of RJ's skills redundant. OG fills in a lot of gaps we currently don't have which is why you would make the trade. At some point we need to start accounting for "fit" and not pure asset accumulation/valuation driven roster decisions.

I don't agree with going "all in" on OG either, but I don't think we would have to, and in this scenario we would keep IQ so that wouldn't really matter IMO.

i mean people floating RJ and multiple 1sts, that's an ALL IN move, wouldn't leave enough assets or outgoing salary to really trade for another star.

Until/unless Randle shows up in the playoffs, we dont really have enough rim pressure guys.

Well I'm not a fan of the RJ + 3 firsts trade. But I think we would still have room for a star trade in a reasonable RJ/OG swap.

Has anyone said this? I know there was a rumor I don't really recall but someone offered three firsts with their cap room and no player in return? I've never seen anything with a young player with tons of potential and three picks anywhere?

but I agree in a reasonable swap OG makes so much sense for us. OG may not be a superstar but he is considered one of the best 1-4 defenders in the league, and shots at a very nice clip of 38% from three to add to his great defense. I'm not sure of his value decreasing , the kid just turned 26 7 days ago. He technically isn't even in his prime, which I believe most say starts at 27 or something like that. I don't think you will hear RJ and three picks offered like they were for OG so I'll remain liking that trade even though I like RJ but I'm more interested in what is best for the team. Hard not to like our homegrown draft picks and hope they flourish.

DLeethal wrote:

stillafan wrote:

DLeethal wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

DLeethal wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

DLeethal wrote:To me Barrett and OG are players of similar stature, OG stock is probably higher because his skillset is more highly in demand Ala Mikel Bridge-esque. Barrett being a scorer who can't hit jumpshots is a tough skillset in this league.

That said, Barrett is significantly younger, locked up on a reasonable deal, one of a handful of players who would love the idea of playing in Canada, and we shouldn't have to package a bunch of picks with him to get OG IMO. I would swap and add a first but RJ + 3 firsts seems very extreme to me.

OG would be a great skillset to add to the mix with Brunson and Randle though, OG, Grimes, Mitch would make us a elite tier defensive team IMO.

agreed, OG is more valued, but when you start looking at his injury history, the fact that he and the TOR starters played a ton of minutes so his stats are a bit inflated. the fact that he will command 30M+, and the fact that he almost never gets to the FT line and doesn't pressure the rim as much as RJ does.

I mean you can make a good case that IQ is already better than OG.

So while I like OG I don't see the fit here, he'd cost more than he's worth. unless you think he has a Mikal type trajectory. but i dont see that either, he's a guy with 6 seasons under his belt and 400 games played, I think this is who he is. And while that's a good player, it's not worth what he'd command in terms of $ and assets.

IQ, Grimes and RJ could all end up being better than OG as soon as next year.

Not really worried about what OG can't do i.e. rim pressure because we have guys who do that already which makes a lot of RJ's skills redundant. OG fills in a lot of gaps we currently don't have which is why you would make the trade. At some point we need to start accounting for "fit" and not pure asset accumulation/valuation driven roster decisions.

I don't agree with going "all in" on OG either, but I don't think we would have to, and in this scenario we would keep IQ so that wouldn't really matter IMO.

i mean people floating RJ and multiple 1sts, that's an ALL IN move, wouldn't leave enough assets or outgoing salary to really trade for another star.

Until/unless Randle shows up in the playoffs, we dont really have enough rim pressure guys.

Well I'm not a fan of the RJ + 3 firsts trade. But I think we would still have room for a star trade in a reasonable RJ/OG swap.

Has anyone said this? I know there was a rumor I don't really recall but someone offered three firsts with their cap room and no player in return? I've never seen anything with a young player with tons of potential and three picks anywhere?

but I agree in a reasonable swap OG makes so much sense for us. OG may not be a superstar but he is considered one of the best 1-4 defenders in the league, and shots at a very nice clip of 38% from three to add to his great defense. I'm not sure of his value decreasing , the kid just turned 26 7 days ago. He technically isn't even in his prime, which I believe most say starts at 27 or something like that. I don't think you will hear RJ and three picks offered like they were for OG so I'll remain liking that trade even though I like RJ but I'm more interested in what is best for the team. Hard not to like our homegrown draft picks and hope they flourish.

Someone wrote RJ + 2 picks earlier in this thread was rumored. I've seen the "3 picks" elsewhere. I would do RJ and a first and that's probably my limit.

Depends on which picks to me. The Dallas, Detroit, Washington and Bucks picks aren't as valuable to me as a Knicks pick. The Knicks picks are downside protection risk and if you negotiate good protections, you run into issues being able to make any other trades with those picks. At this moment, we have Dallas, Detroit and Washington having a hard time conveying a pick.

Tim Bontemps on Donovan Mitchell situation in Cleveland - “I don't think there's any chance he signs an extension there ever. And if it was up to me, I would trade him today.”

Alpha1971 wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:We need to save our assets for a real star. Be patient and keep winning and hopefully improving with the young core in the meantime.

Tim Bontemps on Donovan Mitchell situation in Cleveland - “I don't think there's any chance he signs an extension there ever. And if it was up to me, I would trade him today.”

What if IQ and Grimes take steps this season. Would you rather have Brunson, IQ, and Grimes or Brunson and D Mitchell ?

I would imagine a DM trade would be centered around RJ & IQ. salary wise would be very difficult to make it IQ and Grimes.

But I'd take DM over RJ & IQ or over any combination of those 3 guys really. DM is a superstar and we have role player depth now.

DLeethal wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:

Alpha1971 wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:We need to save our assets for a real star. Be patient and keep winning and hopefully improving with the young core in the meantime.

Tim Bontemps on Donovan Mitchell situation in Cleveland - “I don't think there's any chance he signs an extension there ever. And if it was up to me, I would trade him today.”

What if IQ and Grimes take steps this season. Would you rather have Brunson, IQ, and Grimes or Brunson and D Mitchell ?

I would imagine a DM trade would be centered around RJ & IQ. salary wise would be very difficult to make it IQ and Grimes.

But I'd take DM over RJ & IQ or over any combination of those 3 guys really. DM is a superstar and we have role player depth now.

Yea I think you have to extend that to "would you rather have RJ, IQ, Grimes, Donte, and Hart" or "would you rather have DMitchell, Grimes, Donte, Hart" (substitute Grimes for IQ if you prefer but essentially 2 of the 3 guards will go in the trade). Large part of the reason we got Hart and DD is to remain whole after a trade like that.

Rose has done a great job of setting us up for THE trade.

Unfortunately this is the part now where we need two to tango. I mean from all reports we made very strong offers for DM last summer, but was Ainge ever really going to send DM here? Or were we used as leverage?

Now it becomes "is CLE ready to trade him".

It's not easy to trade for superstars, there aren't enough to go around. we're in position to do so, we're in position where vegas consistently has us as the highest odds for all the superstars like DM, PG, Embiid...etc. but this part isn't completely in Leons control.