joec32033 wrote:

EwingPSD wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:Apparently we are offering StarJ, Fournier and two first round picks. I wonder if Toronto would bite. RJ is a late developer and had a strong outing in the playoffs. He was 3rd best player behind Brunson and Randle on a team that got to the 2 round and showed a little fight in that Heat series. I don't have a problem if we keep RJ but somehow OG might be that missing piece.

RJ and Fournier is a lot of money. RJ makes more than OG alone. Would it be a bigger deal?

For now. If I remember correctly, OG wants 150 mil plus for his next contract.

I like Barrett but strongly disagree with the opinion that he has star potential bc he gets to the rim and he just needs to make more of those shots. Not all rim looks are good looks. Barrett excelled post season when he’s shot the ball less and drove to pass a lot more. In the playoffs Barrett passed out of drives 50% of the time verse 28% RS. Too often Barrett take an extra dribble into to teeth of the defense and forces a very difficult “rim look”. If he makes a jump I bet it’s bc he gets to the rim less and passes more.

Who said he had star potential because of that? Martin said OG had an elite skill and RJ didn't. He does. He gets to the rim at will. That is an elite skill. Just because either OG or RJ have an elite skill, that doesn't mean they have star potential.

Steve Kerr had an elite skill. Rod Strickland had one too. Mark Jackson had one. McBride has one too.

I still disagree. I don’t think running into trees is an elite skill. I think if OG put his head down like Jerome Bettis he’d get to the rim a lot too. He gets to the rim by forcing it. That’s why he’s has a lot of trouble finishing.

EwingPSD wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

EwingPSD wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:Apparently we are offering StarJ, Fournier and two first round picks. I wonder if Toronto would bite. RJ is a late developer and had a strong outing in the playoffs. He was 3rd best player behind Brunson and Randle on a team that got to the 2 round and showed a little fight in that Heat series. I don't have a problem if we keep RJ but somehow OG might be that missing piece.

RJ and Fournier is a lot of money. RJ makes more than OG alone. Would it be a bigger deal?

For now. If I remember correctly, OG wants 150 mil plus for his next contract.

I like Barrett but strongly disagree with the opinion that he has star potential bc he gets to the rim and he just needs to make more of those shots. Not all rim looks are good looks. Barrett excelled post season when he’s shot the ball less and drove to pass a lot more. In the playoffs Barrett passed out of drives 50% of the time verse 28% RS. Too often Barrett take an extra dribble into to teeth of the defense and forces a very difficult “rim look”. If he makes a jump I bet it’s bc he gets to the rim less and passes more.

Who said he had star potential because of that? Martin said OG had an elite skill and RJ didn't. He does. He gets to the rim at will. That is an elite skill. Just because either OG or RJ have an elite skill, that doesn't mean they have star potential.

Steve Kerr had an elite skill. Rod Strickland had one too. Mark Jackson had one. McBride has one too.

I still disagree. I don’t think running into trees is an elite skill. I think if OG put his head down like Jerome Bettis he’d get to the rim a lot too. He gets to the rim by forcing it. That’s why he’s has a lot of trouble finishing.

I think his improvement at age 22 was pretty good. I mean Butler was worse in his first 4 years and his jump was 60%-62% then in year 5 he jumped to 67%, RJ in year 4 is right there and yet Butler in year 5 was 26 years old.

Butler didn't hit 70% till year 8 at age 29. And now Jimmy hits at the rim like clock work since at 70%. IMO, RJ's finishing at the rim grew a lot. that fadeway layup on the baseline is almost gone.

A kid who just finished the season at 22 years old again imo, trying to say he is or isn't going to be a star is premature. I don't think, in fact i'd bet he never becomes the defender OG is, and OG's shot just seems to drop more.

We had this discussion in the other forum about OG and someone said he's terrible at the rim yet he shoots 70% for his career and one year shot 76%. I would like OG's handle to be tighter because he's no stud at it either because he does get stripped at times.

I'm a fan of OG's and have wanted him for last two seasons. I think he is more a glue guy to a ring that is very much needed to get that ring, and helps Jalen and Randle's lack of defense a great deal.

Money speaks volume and what OG's max is isn't much greater than what RJ got if you take Cap increase %'s into it.

stillafan wrote:I just would like to add, with the new CBA rules, you can't have 3 guys making over 100m and then think you can add a superstar who will be making a lot more. Also after two seasons both Jalen and Randle can opt out and Jalen can get in the neighborhood of upper 50's touching on 60m contract. And unless Randle shows he can play in the post season, he may just opt in making over 35m his last season for year three.

So to conclude on the thoughts something has to give, if a star is coming (if, big word) then someone has to go. It also seems OG is a hot commodity and easier to trade for value over RJ at this point based on even if OG gets his max extension. This is not even taking into consideration we now have DD at 4/56 not counting incentives and Hart imo no doubt will get extended for 4/81 or in that area.
And IQ wants 100m or higher according to the rumor reports. Mitch will go down slightly under 15m but when you do the math and with Cap locked to 10% increases, we will have to package players in a trade if the right player wants to come.

Not sure it’s as clear as you make it sound or that your math is accurate. The 5/7/10 year max percentages are still 25%/30%/35% of the cap. The cap easing provisions increase such that the projected cap increase from 2025 to 2026 is an additional 15mm with the apron being 229mm. With two franchises coming, the expectation is that each team will net a cash distribution of $300mm. And price competition on salary will push top tier players even higher with teams having real depth at risk of losing quality players in an expansion draft.

Long story short, there is a real imperative to lock up core players with today’s salary cap limits. I’m not a huge fan of locking up 32+ year old players on a super max, but 35mm contracts don’t scare me much.

We could keep 3 30mm contracts and 1 supermax without too much repercussion. I wouldn’t, but you could.

I am pro 1) OG, 2) Bridges 3) JJJ and would make moves to add these guys even if I had to deal with super-max issues later. But this team (and OKC) need to consolidate assets ahead of the formal approval of an expansion.

stillafan wrote:

EwingPSD wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

EwingPSD wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:Apparently we are offering StarJ, Fournier and two first round picks. I wonder if Toronto would bite. RJ is a late developer and had a strong outing in the playoffs. He was 3rd best player behind Brunson and Randle on a team that got to the 2 round and showed a little fight in that Heat series. I don't have a problem if we keep RJ but somehow OG might be that missing piece.

RJ and Fournier is a lot of money. RJ makes more than OG alone. Would it be a bigger deal?

For now. If I remember correctly, OG wants 150 mil plus for his next contract.

I like Barrett but strongly disagree with the opinion that he has star potential bc he gets to the rim and he just needs to make more of those shots. Not all rim looks are good looks. Barrett excelled post season when he’s shot the ball less and drove to pass a lot more. In the playoffs Barrett passed out of drives 50% of the time verse 28% RS. Too often Barrett take an extra dribble into to teeth of the defense and forces a very difficult “rim look”. If he makes a jump I bet it’s bc he gets to the rim less and passes more.

Who said he had star potential because of that? Martin said OG had an elite skill and RJ didn't. He does. He gets to the rim at will. That is an elite skill. Just because either OG or RJ have an elite skill, that doesn't mean they have star potential.

Steve Kerr had an elite skill. Rod Strickland had one too. Mark Jackson had one. McBride has one too.

I still disagree. I don’t think running into trees is an elite skill. I think if OG put his head down like Jerome Bettis he’d get to the rim a lot too. He gets to the rim by forcing it. That’s why he’s has a lot of trouble finishing.

I think his improvement at age 22 was pretty good. I mean Butler was worse in his first 4 years and his jump was 60%-62% then in year 5 he jumped to 67%, RJ in year 4 is right there and yet Butler in year 5 was 26 years old.

Butler didn't hit 70% till year 8 at age 29. And now Jimmy hits at the rim like clock work since at 70%. IMO, RJ's finishing at the rim grew a lot. that fadeway layup on the baseline is almost gone.

A kid who just finished the season at 22 years old again imo, trying to say he is or isn't going to be a star is premature. I don't think, in fact i'd bet he never becomes the defender OG is, and OG's shot just seems to drop more.

We had this discussion in the other forum about OG and someone said he's terrible at the rim yet he shoots 70% for his career and one year shot 76%. I would like OG's handle to be tighter because he's no stud at it either because he does get stripped at times.

I'm a fan of OG's and have wanted him for last two seasons. I think he is more a glue guy to a ring that is very much needed to get that ring, and helps Jalen and Randle's lack of defense a great deal.

Money speaks volume and what OG's max is isn't much greater than what RJ got if you take Cap increase %'s into it.

Maybe also Jimmy Butler tried to force his way all the way to the cup early in his career. Idk but now I see a guy that take a lot of short/mid range shots and is a willing passer out of drives. Barrett frequent rim attempts has been sold as a Barrett skill. It’s not it’s a fault. I believe his efficiency at the rim will increase when he starts passing out of drive more and/or starts making short pull up Js instead running into defenders. The other consequence to this will be he’ll shoot less at the rim

EwingPSD wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

EwingPSD wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:Apparently we are offering StarJ, Fournier and two first round picks. I wonder if Toronto would bite. RJ is a late developer and had a strong outing in the playoffs. He was 3rd best player behind Brunson and Randle on a team that got to the 2 round and showed a little fight in that Heat series. I don't have a problem if we keep RJ but somehow OG might be that missing piece.

RJ and Fournier is a lot of money. RJ makes more than OG alone. Would it be a bigger deal?

For now. If I remember correctly, OG wants 150 mil plus for his next contract.

I like Barrett but strongly disagree with the opinion that he has star potential bc he gets to the rim and he just needs to make more of those shots. Not all rim looks are good looks. Barrett excelled post season when he’s shot the ball less and drove to pass a lot more. In the playoffs Barrett passed out of drives 50% of the time verse 28% RS. Too often Barrett take an extra dribble into to teeth of the defense and forces a very difficult “rim look”. If he makes a jump I bet it’s bc he gets to the rim less and passes more.

Who said he had star potential because of that? Martin said OG had an elite skill and RJ didn't. He does. He gets to the rim at will. That is an elite skill. Just because either OG or RJ have an elite skill, that doesn't mean they have star potential.

Steve Kerr had an elite skill. Rod Strickland had one too. Mark Jackson had one. McBride has one too.

I still disagree. I don’t think running into trees is an elite skill. I think if OG put his head down like Jerome Bettis he’d get to the rim a lot too. He gets to the rim by forcing it. That’s why he’s has a lot of trouble finishing.

The decision making comes with experience. He averaged just under 3 assists per game. For passing you are talking about an extra assist per game or so. The finishing has always been an issue got better in the playoffs and even pulled some Jalen Brunson moves once or twice.

I disagree that getting to the rim is not a skill it most definately is, especially when the other team knows it's coming and can't stop it. I'll agree to disagree on that. But I think you brill see steady improvement every year from this kid, given the opportunity.

joec32033 wrote:

EwingPSD wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

EwingPSD wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:Apparently we are offering StarJ, Fournier and two first round picks. I wonder if Toronto would bite. RJ is a late developer and had a strong outing in the playoffs. He was 3rd best player behind Brunson and Randle on a team that got to the 2 round and showed a little fight in that Heat series. I don't have a problem if we keep RJ but somehow OG might be that missing piece.

RJ and Fournier is a lot of money. RJ makes more than OG alone. Would it be a bigger deal?

For now. If I remember correctly, OG wants 150 mil plus for his next contract.

I like Barrett but strongly disagree with the opinion that he has star potential bc he gets to the rim and he just needs to make more of those shots. Not all rim looks are good looks. Barrett excelled post season when he’s shot the ball less and drove to pass a lot more. In the playoffs Barrett passed out of drives 50% of the time verse 28% RS. Too often Barrett take an extra dribble into to teeth of the defense and forces a very difficult “rim look”. If he makes a jump I bet it’s bc he gets to the rim less and passes more.

Who said he had star potential because of that? Martin said OG had an elite skill and RJ didn't. He does. He gets to the rim at will. That is an elite skill. Just because either OG or RJ have an elite skill, that doesn't mean they have star potential.

Steve Kerr had an elite skill. Rod Strickland had one too. Mark Jackson had one. McBride has one too.

I still disagree. I don’t think running into trees is an elite skill. I think if OG put his head down like Jerome Bettis he’d get to the rim a lot too. He gets to the rim by forcing it. That’s why he’s has a lot of trouble finishing.

The decision making comes with experience. He averaged just under 3 assists per game. For passing you are talking about an extra assist per game or so. The finishing has always been an issue got better in the playoffs and even pulled some Jalen Brunson moves once or twice.

I disagree that getting to the rim is not a skill it most definately is, especially when the other team knows it's coming and can't stop it. I'll agree to disagree on that. But I think you brill see steady improvement every year from this kid, given the opportunity.

I can count on one hand the number of times his drives resulted in him getting to the rim. He usually ends up shooting slightly off balance from the wing. I think this season is going to be a little different based on what appears to be an offseason conditioning plan that isn’t bulking up, but instead he appears a bit thinner and more toned. I think the bulk up, slim down model can be very effective and we could see a bit of a break out year with RJ running point forward with the second unit surrounded by IQ, DDV, Hart and Hart.

In short, I think Barrett is poised for a breakout year.

EwingsGlass wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

EwingPSD wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

EwingPSD wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:Apparently we are offering StarJ, Fournier and two first round picks. I wonder if Toronto would bite. RJ is a late developer and had a strong outing in the playoffs. He was 3rd best player behind Brunson and Randle on a team that got to the 2 round and showed a little fight in that Heat series. I don't have a problem if we keep RJ but somehow OG might be that missing piece.

RJ and Fournier is a lot of money. RJ makes more than OG alone. Would it be a bigger deal?

For now. If I remember correctly, OG wants 150 mil plus for his next contract.

I like Barrett but strongly disagree with the opinion that he has star potential bc he gets to the rim and he just needs to make more of those shots. Not all rim looks are good looks. Barrett excelled post season when he’s shot the ball less and drove to pass a lot more. In the playoffs Barrett passed out of drives 50% of the time verse 28% RS. Too often Barrett take an extra dribble into to teeth of the defense and forces a very difficult “rim look”. If he makes a jump I bet it’s bc he gets to the rim less and passes more.

Who said he had star potential because of that? Martin said OG had an elite skill and RJ didn't. He does. He gets to the rim at will. That is an elite skill. Just because either OG or RJ have an elite skill, that doesn't mean they have star potential.

Steve Kerr had an elite skill. Rod Strickland had one too. Mark Jackson had one. McBride has one too.

I still disagree. I don’t think running into trees is an elite skill. I think if OG put his head down like Jerome Bettis he’d get to the rim a lot too. He gets to the rim by forcing it. That’s why he’s has a lot of trouble finishing.

The decision making comes with experience. He averaged just under 3 assists per game. For passing you are talking about an extra assist per game or so. The finishing has always been an issue got better in the playoffs and even pulled some Jalen Brunson moves once or twice.

I disagree that getting to the rim is not a skill it most definately is, especially when the other team knows it's coming and can't stop it. I'll agree to disagree on that. But I think you brill see steady improvement every year from this kid, given the opportunity.

I can count on one hand the number of times his drives resulted in him getting to the rim. He usually ends up shooting slightly off balance from the wing. I think this season is going to be a little different based on what appears to be an offseason conditioning plan that isn’t bulking up, but instead he appears a bit thinner and more toned. I think the bulk up, slim down model can be very effective and we could see a bit of a break out year with RJ running point forward with the second unit surrounded by IQ, DDV, Hart and Hart.

In short, I think Barrett is poised for a breakout year.

I try not think of it like that. I just want to see a natural progression in another year or 2, if it doesn't happen it won't happen.

That said, Barrett is significantly younger, locked up on a reasonable deal, one of a handful of players who would love the idea of playing in Canada, and we shouldn't have to package a bunch of picks with him to get OG IMO. I would swap and add a first but RJ + 3 firsts seems very extreme to me.

OG would be a great skillset to add to the mix with Brunson and Randle though, OG, Grimes, Mitch would make us a elite tier defensive team IMO.

DLeethal wrote:To me Barrett and OG are players of similar stature, OG stock is probably higher because his skillset is more highly in demand Ala Mikel Bridge-esque. Barrett being a scorer who can't hit jumpshots is a tough skillset in this league.

That said, Barrett is significantly younger, locked up on a reasonable deal, one of a handful of players who would love the idea of playing in Canada, and we shouldn't have to package a bunch of picks with him to get OG IMO. I would swap and add a first but RJ + 3 firsts seems very extreme to me.

OG would be a great skillset to add to the mix with Brunson and Randle though, OG, Grimes, Mitch would make us a elite tier defensive team IMO.

agreed, OG is more valued, but when you start looking at his injury history, the fact that he and the TOR starters played a ton of minutes so his stats are a bit inflated. the fact that he will command 30M+, and the fact that he almost never gets to the FT line and doesn't pressure the rim as much as RJ does.

I mean you can make a good case that IQ is already better than OG.

So while I like OG I don't see the fit here, he'd cost more than he's worth. unless you think he has a Mikal type trajectory. but i dont see that either, he's a guy with 6 seasons under his belt and 400 games played, I think this is who he is. And while that's a good player, it's not worth what he'd command in terms of $ and assets.

IQ, Grimes and RJ could all end up being better than OG as soon as next year.

joec32033 wrote:

EwingPSD wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

EwingPSD wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:Apparently we are offering StarJ, Fournier and two first round picks. I wonder if Toronto would bite. RJ is a late developer and had a strong outing in the playoffs. He was 3rd best player behind Brunson and Randle on a team that got to the 2 round and showed a little fight in that Heat series. I don't have a problem if we keep RJ but somehow OG might be that missing piece.

RJ and Fournier is a lot of money. RJ makes more than OG alone. Would it be a bigger deal?

For now. If I remember correctly, OG wants 150 mil plus for his next contract.

I like Barrett but strongly disagree with the opinion that he has star potential bc he gets to the rim and he just needs to make more of those shots. Not all rim looks are good looks. Barrett excelled post season when he’s shot the ball less and drove to pass a lot more. In the playoffs Barrett passed out of drives 50% of the time verse 28% RS. Too often Barrett take an extra dribble into to teeth of the defense and forces a very difficult “rim look”. If he makes a jump I bet it’s bc he gets to the rim less and passes more.

Who said he had star potential because of that? Martin said OG had an elite skill and RJ didn't. He does. He gets to the rim at will. That is an elite skill. Just because either OG or RJ have an elite skill, that doesn't mean they have star potential.

Steve Kerr had an elite skill. Rod Strickland had one too. Mark Jackson had one. McBride has one too.

I still disagree. I don’t think running into trees is an elite skill. I think if OG put his head down like Jerome Bettis he’d get to the rim a lot too. He gets to the rim by forcing it. That’s why he’s has a lot of trouble finishing.

The decision making comes with experience. He averaged just under 3 assists per game. For passing you are talking about an extra assist per game or so. The finishing has always been an issue got better in the playoffs and even pulled some Jalen Brunson moves once or twice.

I disagree that getting to the rim is not a skill it most definately is, especially when the other team knows it's coming and can't stop it. I'll agree to disagree on that. But I think you brill see steady improvement every year from this kid, given the opportunity.

Idk, during the regular season he passed on 28% of this drives in the playoffs it was something like 48%. I am not talking about assists. I am talking about passing the ball. It doesn't have to be a homerun pass. He also took 15 shots a game in the playoff down from 16 in the regular season. Not a huge drop but look at when he he played really well. He finished the Cavs series great. In games 3,4, and 5 he took 12, 18, and 13 shots.

nycericanguy wrote:

DLeethal wrote:To me Barrett and OG are players of similar stature, OG stock is probably higher because his skillset is more highly in demand Ala Mikel Bridge-esque. Barrett being a scorer who can't hit jumpshots is a tough skillset in this league.

That said, Barrett is significantly younger, locked up on a reasonable deal, one of a handful of players who would love the idea of playing in Canada, and we shouldn't have to package a bunch of picks with him to get OG IMO. I would swap and add a first but RJ + 3 firsts seems very extreme to me.

OG would be a great skillset to add to the mix with Brunson and Randle though, OG, Grimes, Mitch would make us a elite tier defensive team IMO.

agreed, OG is more valued, but when you start looking at his injury history, the fact that he and the TOR starters played a ton of minutes so his stats are a bit inflated. the fact that he will command 30M+, and the fact that he almost never gets to the FT line and doesn't pressure the rim as much as RJ does.

I mean you can make a good case that IQ is already better than OG.

So while I like OG I don't see the fit here, he'd cost more than he's worth. unless you think he has a Mikal type trajectory. but i dont see that either, he's a guy with 6 seasons under his belt and 400 games played, I think this is who he is. And while that's a good player, it's not worth what he'd command in terms of $ and assets.

IQ, Grimes and RJ could all end up being better than OG as soon as next year.

I think you are taking his average salary over the 4 year extension? Actually a bit higher, from the new rules it appears he can sign for 4/116.9 which is 140% of his 18.6 deal he's on presently. So for quick math calculated just over 2m per year increases and he's getting around 26m to start basically maybe a tad over. Two years after RJ's deal with the cap up around 20% that is acutally less proportuniately then RJ? You agree? RJ at 24m +20% = just under 29m?

My take nycer is Randle is going nowhere, Jalen in going nowhere, OG fits like a glove for now over RJ. I think your putting too much emphasis on attacking the rim when you have players like Randle and Jalen with high usage and IQ who likes to attack the rim or at least his floater game.

I can't speak for Jalen but if i'm him as a PG, I want a guy to help me on defense, take some pressure off and be confident he hits the open the threes. The only thing is RJ's age, his contract and potential but I don't think on defense he ever gets to OG's level, that would be amazing though.