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The Trade Market as it pertains to Washington
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Knixkik
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6/21/2023  9:59 PM
I am already starting to see chatter around the Internet about how the market is fluctuating so much in terms of cost because of what Winger in Washington just did with Beal and Porzingis. Let me just say, I can’t believe that ownership signed off on this. Winger essentially put a liquidation, everything must go sign outside of the front office and rushed these guys out the door at less than 10 cents on the dollar. They didn’t get one real asset for Beal. They got #30 for porzingis. Those trades would always be there for those guys. They aren’t kicking off this rebuild with any new assets to get excited about. If they hit on their lottery pick and tank and hit on the next pick, all will be forgotten. But this is legitimately the worst roster management I’ve seen in this era, maybe alongside the new President of the Twolves getting desperate for Gobert. So how does this pertain to the Knicks ? I am not expecting a bargain trade or comparing the next Knicks trade to the Beal and Porzingis deals. Those were simple a new guy trying to move on without concern for perception or any value appreciation.
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BigDaddyG
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6/21/2023  10:11 PM
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
KnickDanger
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6/21/2023  10:38 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:

Hilarious and extremely painful simultaneously.
martin
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6/21/2023  11:15 PM
I wanna poke my eyes out suddenly
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LivingLegend
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6/22/2023  1:15 AM
Knixkik wrote:I am already starting to see chatter around the Internet about how the market is fluctuating so much in terms of cost because of what Winger in Washington just did with Beal and Porzingis. Let me just say, I can’t believe that ownership signed off on this. Winger essentially put a liquidation, everything must go sign outside of the front office and rushed these guys out the door at less than 10 cents on the dollar. They didn’t get one real asset for Beal. They got #30 for porzingis. Those trades would always be there for those guys. They aren’t kicking off this rebuild with any new assets to get excited about. If they hit on their lottery pick and tank and hit on the next pick, all will be forgotten. But this is legitimately the worst roster management I’ve seen in this era, maybe alongside the new President of the Twolves getting desperate for Gobert. So how does this pertain to the Knicks ? I am not expecting a bargain trade or comparing the next Knicks trade to the Beal and Porzingis deals. Those were simple a new guy trying to move on without concern for perception or any value appreciation.

Beal had them by the balls - they had zero leverage. Beal even dictated that when Wiz asked for Ayton - he said I'm not approving deal unless Ayton stays.
He gave them 1 team to deal with and it wasn't this new guy that gave him the giant contract and no-trade clause.

KP is more interesting in that it's basically 2 deals. Smart to Memphis for 2 picks. And KP for T-Jones and filler contracts. That is crazy but maybe it speaks to how few teams want to pay KP new contract that would start where? $40-$50M for 4-5 years??? I'm not sure what #s will be but the poor return just may be about finances in new agreement.
Knixkik
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6/22/2023  3:57 AM    LAST EDITED: 6/22/2023  3:57 AM
LivingLegend wrote:
Knixkik wrote:I am already starting to see chatter around the Internet about how the market is fluctuating so much in terms of cost because of what Winger in Washington just did with Beal and Porzingis. Let me just say, I can’t believe that ownership signed off on this. Winger essentially put a liquidation, everything must go sign outside of the front office and rushed these guys out the door at less than 10 cents on the dollar. They didn’t get one real asset for Beal. They got #30 for porzingis. Those trades would always be there for those guys. They aren’t kicking off this rebuild with any new assets to get excited about. If they hit on their lottery pick and tank and hit on the next pick, all will be forgotten. But this is legitimately the worst roster management I’ve seen in this era, maybe alongside the new President of the Twolves getting desperate for Gobert. So how does this pertain to the Knicks ? I am not expecting a bargain trade or comparing the next Knicks trade to the Beal and Porzingis deals. Those were simple a new guy trying to move on without concern for perception or any value appreciation.

Beal had them by the balls - they had zero leverage. Beal even dictated that when Wiz asked for Ayton - he said I'm not approving deal unless Ayton stays.
He gave them 1 team to deal with and it wasn't this new guy that gave him the giant contract and no-trade clause.

KP is more interesting in that it's basically 2 deals. Smart to Memphis for 2 picks. And KP for T-Jones and filler contracts. That is crazy but maybe it speaks to how few teams want to pay KP new contract that would start where? $40-$50M for 4-5 years??? I'm not sure what #s will be but the poor return just may be about finances in new agreement.

Wash could have held out a bit on Beal. There has to be some compromise. It sounds like Phoenix just didn’t want to include Ayton and save him for another deal. And this revised porzingis deal eliminates the late first round pick they got. Like I said ownership can’t be excited about this. Winger has to show a little restraint and try to get value even if they weren’t his contracts. What he did borders on malpractice. He got nothing for these 2 players that assists in a rebuild.
Knixkik
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6/22/2023  4:39 AM
This revised porzingis deal got Washington Jones, but Boston got back 2 firsts? If I’m Washington I demand 1 of those firsts. Washington didn’t have to move porzingis right now, since he was going to pick up his option and they didn’t land a good 2023 pick anyways. Where is the negotiation in this ? If I’m the Knicks I call Washington to see what else they are willing to give away for free.
franco12
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6/22/2023  6:29 AM
Maybe moving KP is addition by subtraction.
Nalod
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6/22/2023  6:30 AM
Wiz look at it as if Beal walked instead of getting that deal. They were hamstrung with that contact.
KP could have opted out and walked.
These are fragile players that get you know where in the long run. The risks to their new teams are down the road but they can put you over the top NOW.
We are not there yet. We have young players who need to be extended.
franco12
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6/22/2023  9:14 AM
Nalod wrote:Wiz look at it as if Beal walked instead of getting that deal. They were hamstrung with that contact.
KP could have opted out and walked.
These are fragile players that get you know where in the long run. The risks to their new teams are down the road but they can put you over the top NOW.
We are not there yet. We have young players who need to be extended.

it may be splitting hairs, but I think we are right there- just get past Miami, and we might well have made the finals.

We're one or two pieces away, depending on what has to get shipped out.

I just think both Beal and KP were bad bets.
Nalod
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6/22/2023  10:11 AM
franco12 wrote:
Nalod wrote:Wiz look at it as if Beal walked instead of getting that deal. They were hamstrung with that contact.
KP could have opted out and walked.
These are fragile players that get you know where in the long run. The risks to their new teams are down the road but they can put you over the top NOW.
We are not there yet. We have young players who need to be extended.

it may be splitting hairs, but I think we are right there- just get past Miami, and we might well have made the finals.

We're one or two pieces away, depending on what has to get shipped out.

I just think both Beal and KP were bad bets.

Its a nice thought. It was a really nice season.
You may be right. The margins are thinner with parity so “splitting hairs” may be accurate.
Knixkik
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6/22/2023  10:20 AM    LAST EDITED: 6/22/2023  10:21 AM
franco12 wrote:Maybe moving KP is addition by subtraction.

Maybe but you should still be able to get something for him. Point is no one can objectively say Winger did a good job with these 2 trades. Selling low is just poor management.
Knixkik
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6/22/2023  4:51 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/22/2023  4:51 PM
This Chris Paul for Poole and picks deal was good. I expected them just to release Paul. It was the first somewhat positive move made. Poole is a great gamble.
fishmike
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6/22/2023  4:52 PM
Knixkik wrote:This Chris Paul for Poole and picks deal was good. I expected them just to release Paul. It was the first somewhat positive move made. Poole is a great gamble.
for who? What a favor for GS getting them out of Poole's contract
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EwingsGlass
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6/22/2023  5:10 PM
I am not a Poole fan. Not sure he realizes how good he has it. Unless another team can replicate the GSW floor spacing AND create playsets for Curry that Poole can run in Curry's absence, I don't see his numbers being repeated. Consider me a naysayer. Whoever is calling the shots in Washington is doing systemic damage to that team.
You know I gonna spin wit it
KnickDanger
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6/22/2023  5:15 PM
Anything left in their pockets for us to pick?
Nalod
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6/22/2023  5:37 PM
Can't slam Winger as he had a bad mess to clean up.
Parity and the new rules make dumping easier as teams can get talent for only the contract cost.
Thats ok. Poole created a problem for the cap after next year so ok to dump him. ANd, might signal Draymond returning.
Wiz are rebuilding but the notion it will take more than three years and our picks don't convey is kinda short sighted.
That they got Poole cheap shows "excess talent" can be obtained.
One day we will too shed assets and fans will slam FO for letting them walk. All teams do it, Good ones too!!!!
lets see what transpires before calling out Wiz for what they are doing.
Our FO is not stupid. They have demonstrated proficiency and patience. Don't mean everything will be great, but they are doing fine.
Knixkik
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6/22/2023  6:19 PM
Nalod wrote:Can't slam Winger as he had a bad mess to clean up.
Parity and the new rules make dumping easier as teams can get talent for only the contract cost.
Thats ok. Poole created a problem for the cap after next year so ok to dump him. ANd, might signal Draymond returning.
Wiz are rebuilding but the notion it will take more than three years and our picks don't convey is kinda short sighted.
That they got Poole cheap shows "excess talent" can be obtained.
One day we will too shed assets and fans will slam FO for letting them walk. All teams do it, Good ones too!!!!
lets see what transpires before calling out Wiz for what they are doing.
Our FO is not stupid. They have demonstrated proficiency and patience. Don't mean everything will be great, but they are doing fine.

I guess my point with Winger was there’s zero patience. It’s rushed trades that show little negotiation.
gradyandrew
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6/22/2023  7:37 PM
Nalod wrote:Can't slam Winger as he had a bad mess to clean up.
Parity and the new rules make dumping easier as teams can get talent for only the contract cost.
Thats ok. Poole created a problem for the cap after next year so ok to dump him. ANd, might signal Draymond returning.
Wiz are rebuilding but the notion it will take more than three years and our picks don't convey is kinda short sighted.
That they got Poole cheap shows "excess talent" can be obtained.
One day we will too shed assets and fans will slam FO for letting them walk. All teams do it, Good ones too!!!!
lets see what transpires before calling out Wiz for what they are doing.
Our FO is not stupid. They have demonstrated proficiency and patience. Don't mean everything will be great, but they are doing fine.

Wizards bought fools gold when they traded KCP for Morris and Will Barton and Barton proceeded to show exactly why Jokic is the MVP. Guy went from hero to zero. Morris was OK as a starting PG but the team was inconsistent because of injuries. Knicks starters played 500+ minutes and had 7 lineups of 100+ minutes. Wizards had 3 with the high being 157.

Why even trade Beal when he was happy to play his career in Washington? Why not bring back Westbrook for an MLE when he had success there? The only lens that makes sense is the Wizards do not want to send out a 10-20 pick to New York. Or they are bamboozling Qataris.
LivingLegend
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6/22/2023  7:41 PM
Beal deal looking a bit better vs prior reports and you factor in the CP3 move.

Beal goes and Wiz end up with Poole, 2030 top 20 protected, 4 pick swaps and 7 2nds.

Personally I’d rather have what Wiz got back vs Beal —- though guess they could have got way more if moved him a few years ago.
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