HofstraBBall wrote:Just an observation but there seems to be several posters on here that post opinions and when challenged claim "its policing", "a convo not worth having" or that it is too "combative. For me it seems a bit soft. Mentioned this on another forum. For me, the analogy is the guy that goes down to the local park and wants to get some run. Then when it gets a little physical (clean physical play) they decide to leave and claim the just "wanted to have fun and play some basketball.
Imho, if you post an opinion on a fan forum be prepared to get some heated push back. Be prepared to discuss it without getting ones feelings hurt. Be prepared that you may never change that persons opinion and agree to disagree. Think anything short of name calling and constant put downs should be fair game.
Several posters on here that use the excuse of combative banter to disguise the inability to defend their statement. Said it before, if you do not want anyone to respond to your opinion, then go to the train station and spray paint your opinion. Although , that tooo will get a swift response.

Do think their are valid points on both sides to the Randle trade convo.

Ok so you seem to mis my point, when calling you the hofstra police. But that’s all good. I see it got to you a little bit 😂.

I don’t think there’s a lot of fans that want Randle traded now. But in the lakers game Randle turned back the clock and those that wanted him traded, before Brunson came, that lakers game was a small reminder. On top of that, well respected analysts and ex coaches was dogging him and saying he’s not clutch.

So before the Randles hives get all bent backwards, I don’t think anybody wants him traded at the moment. But let’s not ignore more than half of knick fans was calling for his head. Right now we have the best chemistry between players. And Brunson is showing how valuable he is on and off the court. He’s the key to making everything work, including Randle. So adding JB calmed the waters on wanting to trade Randle.

Right now it’s about these 11 games we have left. Can we stay in 5th? Two games against the heat will be critical.

blkexec wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Just an observation but there seems to be several posters on here that post opinions and when challenged claim "its policing", "a convo not worth having" or that it is too "combative. For me it seems a bit soft. Mentioned this on another forum. For me, the analogy is the guy that goes down to the local park and wants to get some run. Then when it gets a little physical (clean physical play) they decide to leave and claim the just "wanted to have fun and play some basketball.
Imho, if you post an opinion on a fan forum be prepared to get some heated push back. Be prepared to discuss it without getting ones feelings hurt. Be prepared that you may never change that persons opinion and agree to disagree. Think anything short of name calling and constant put downs should be fair game.
Several posters on here that use the excuse of combative banter to disguise the inability to defend their statement. Said it before, if you do not want anyone to respond to your opinion, then go to the train station and spray paint your opinion. Although , that tooo will get a swift response.

Do think their are valid points on both sides to the Randle trade convo.

Ok so you seem to mis my point, when calling you the hofstra police. But that’s all good. I see it got to you a little bit 😂.

I don’t think there’s a lot of fans that want Randle traded now. But in the lakers game Randle turned back the clock and those that wanted him traded, before Brunson came, that lakers game was a small reminder. On top of that, well respected analysts and ex coaches was dogging him and saying he’s not clutch.

So before the Randles hives get all bent backwards, I don’t think anybody wants him traded at the moment. But let’s not ignore more than half of knick fans was calling for his head. Right now we have the best chemistry between players. And Brunson is showing how valuable he is on and off the court. He’s the key to making everything work, including Randle. So adding JB calmed the waters on wanting to trade Randle.

Right now it’s about these 11 games we have left. Can we stay in 5th? Two games against the heat will be critical.

Mentioning that responding to opinions is not policing does not equate to getting to me.
Just my opinion that some do get defensive and go to what I mentioned. Thought you did on that one occasion. Saying "don't want the Randle hive to get all bent backwards" to those responding to Gustavs comments about RJ or Randle having to go and Randle needing JB to be affective may as well. But I understand it is just a manner of talking. So will move on. Just hope guys can continue heated banter despite some jabs. Think you do. Mostly.

Back to topic:
I have yet to respond to anyone that did not post. But I do agree that most understand why Randle is worth keeping. Despite some former coach saying he "has to be better in the last minutes". Were you up when he said that? Want to make sure you got the entire context. Because I missed the part where he said Knicks should trade him? Not that it matters though since that opinion does not take so many other variables for trading a player into consideration. Did make another thread on how national media seems to focus on the negatives when talking bout the Knicks. Something that, I feel, is spreading to our own broadcasters.

But let's focus on what we agree on.
Agree that we have great chemistry. Agree JB was a great addition. Agree that Randle is better with a JB. Would however add that he was better with ANY decent PG.(All Star with Payton) Agree next 11 is what matters. Agree Deuce is a solid role player. Think we agree on Josh Hart? So many things we agree on. Progress.

Despite our somewhat antagonist discourse, we can agree that we are both big Knick fans and just want the Knicks to succeed. And that despite our back and forth jabs, we are still responding to each other's posts. Which I feel should be the norm. As mentioned, just too many posters on forums taking this way too seriously.

blkexec wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:I'm feeling more and more KAT is the guy we should be targeting.

Will KAT play center? What’s the starting lineup with kat. Do we have to give up anything to acquire him? How good is his defense?

YUCK on KAT - that is one player I hate watching and who is soft as hell both on/off the court.

I loved him at Kentucky but have always worried about his long term health because of his fate and his massive feet.

From what I’ve seen KAT doesn’t play any D and doesn’t care about D. I think he’s a bright and sensitive kid who is highly skilled but he is the ANTI THIBS player to me who prefers load mgmt to showing up to play.

I would prefer KP to KAT personally unless I’m just completely misreading KAT as a player.

I say stay away.

blkexec wrote:So before the Randles hives get all bent backwards, I don’t think anybody wants him traded at the moment. But let’s not ignore more than half of knick fans was calling for his head.

The half that didn't can.

And thinking trading him for sake of trading him is an empty calorie idea doesn't make you part of a hive.

Well, the rational hive, maybe...

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

technomaster wrote:Randle's an important piece to our team. Randle can carry the team for stretches and is good for a few exceptional, game-changing plays a game.

But is he the guy that will put us over the top? Probably not.

I think that's Brunson - or at least, he's the best one we've got.

thing with the bold is he doesnt need to be. He's already shown he will defer, pass, give up the ball, do the dirty work... we are surely not anchored by how far Randle can get us. If adding Brunson has shown us anything its that Randle makes a good complimentary piece, not a clunky one.

The well thought out reasonable posts have brought any 'debate' to a screeching halt.

Funny how it tends to do that.

But adding o, this is why I think the ideal offseason addition to this team would be a veteran SF. A guy with a resume and gravitas that Randle will defer to but will also share the ball with him.

I don't care about timelines and planning for a dynasty. A vet with game left at the 3 who would let Brunson and Randle have their dominant nights but would be there when needed and command their respect is what this teams needs to go to the next level.

Who's your guy?

Knickoftime wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

blkexec wrote:So before the Randles hives get all bent backwards, I don’t think anybody wants him traded at the moment. But let’s not ignore more than half of knick fans was calling for his head.

The half that didn't can.

And thinking trading him for sake of trading him is an empty calorie idea doesn't make you part of a hive.

Well, the rational hive, maybe...

I have no idea what that means, or who thinks that way.

Happy to clarify.

I've heard the argument Randle 'can't be one of the two best players on a championship team' or 'Randle can't take you to the next level' and variations of the premise that a team is not a serious contender with Randle as a high volume starter...

... therefore - trade him.

JUST that. Just trade him because of those rationals.

When I say it's "empty calories" I mean there has to be an alternative plan proposed or it's an empty premise.

Trade him for who?

Trade him to who? Why does THAT team want Randle given the premise of WHY the Knicks should trade him.

Who plays PF after he's gone?

Who produces his numbers at $25m a year?

Seems shortsighted to propose trading a player that IS imperfect but productive and whose salary reflects that and starting from scratch sans any idea what scratch looks like.

Wait, are you expecting knick fans to act like real NBA GMs? Good luck with that one.

This site and most sites I've been on is filled with fans and their reactionary moves (some never played or managed a team before). I call these discussions NBA 2K moves. Because thats the only thing we can control. The rest is hot air to fill out the day, while burning some hours at work.

Personally I do not dive that deep into trades because I don't have an alternative replacement or contract details to understand who we can trade for and will that person make this team worse. Thibs and Brunson is the best environment for Randle (including his whisperer). Randle reminds me of the old school bully ball knick forwards we had in the 90s (Bonner, mason, Oakley, Larry Johnson, Charles Smith, etc.... Randle is a mix or combination of these guys. But he's a knick and plays like a knick. They all had their version of being a hot head.

In the beginning, when we drafted Obi, he was supposed to be Randles replacement, but that changed when he played like an all star. Then after Thumbs down Randle happened, we added Brunson the next season. So both times Randle was suppose to be gone and was saved by himself or Brunson. Randle went from being the most hated to most loved. It's been a true roller coaster, but he's still here and playing at an All Star level. So I can't complain.

In short, all talks about trades are empty calories to me, per your definition. But if we had a "Lets make a trade" thread, I'm sure you will get more in depth suggestions, responses, etc (even from me after I do a little homework)....But in a game thread, it's always going to be reactionary or in the moment stuff. For example, Randle imploding during the Lakers game. Overall, Randle for me has exceeded expectations and I'm comfortable with moving Obi. I don't like how his value dropped which is bad assset management or terrible drafting. I still wouldn't mind keeping Obi for cheap, but would not be upset if he leaves (or traded) and turns his career around.

But thank you for the clarification!

LivingLegend wrote:

blkexec wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:I'm feeling more and more KAT is the guy we should be targeting.

Will KAT play center? What’s the starting lineup with kat. Do we have to give up anything to acquire him? How good is his defense?

YUCK on KAT - that is one player I hate watching and who is soft as hell both on/off the court.

I loved him at Kentucky but have always worried about his long term health because of his fate and his massive feet.

From what I’ve seen KAT doesn’t play any D and doesn’t care about D. I think he’s a bright and sensitive kid who is highly skilled but he is the ANTI THIBS player to me who prefers load mgmt to showing up to play.

I would prefer KP to KAT personally unless I’m just completely misreading KAT as a player.

I say stay away.

When KAT first entered the league, he was already one of the best post players in the league. I tried to find some examples on youtube, but couldnt find any. His moves were Zach Randolph-like. Somebody got him away from that. I know teams really dont play like that anymore, but its a shame that part of his game is gone.

KAT still posts up but he gets the ball a lot in the high post. Looked bad from what I watched of last season. It was when he got the ball in the paint, he looked better. Didnt have those back to the basket post moves he used to employ though

I wouldnt trade for him, for the reasons you listed. The talent is there, but his game is a bit of a mess.

KnickDanger wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:I'm feeling more and more KAT is the guy we should be targeting.

Haters would love him.

Because I haven’t been corrupted with the images of his decline, I see nothing wrong adding a talent like this FOR THE RIGHT PRICE.

If he’s better in the post I would’ve mind trying a lineup with him at center. Randle shooting 3. Brunson has Randle, Grimes or IQ open, and KAT in the post? Not sure how anybody would frown on that. This is coming from a “defense wins championships guy”. I just have a feeling The All Mighty Thibs will make KAT a better defender than he was in Minnesota.

Knickoftime wrote:

blkexec wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:I'm feeling more and more KAT is the guy we should be targeting.

Haters would love him.

Because I haven’t been corrupted with the images of his decline, I see nothing wrong adding a talent like this FOR THE RIGHT PRICE.

If he’s better in the post I would’ve mind trying a lineup with him at center. Randle shooting 3. Brunson has Randle, Grimes or IQ open, and KAT in the post? Not sure how anybody would frown on that. This is coming from a “defense wins championships guy”. I just have a feeling The All Mighty Thibs will make KAT a better defender than he was in Minnesota.

So, who wants to tell him...?

🤣

blkexec wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

blkexec wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:I'm feeling more and more KAT is the guy we should be targeting.

Haters would love him.

Because I haven’t been corrupted with the images of his decline, I see nothing wrong adding a talent like this FOR THE RIGHT PRICE.

If he’s better in the post I would’ve mind trying a lineup with him at center. Randle shooting 3. Brunson has Randle, Grimes or IQ open, and KAT in the post? Not sure how anybody would frown on that. This is coming from a “defense wins championships guy”. I just have a feeling The All Mighty Thibs will make KAT a better defender than he was in Minnesota.

So, who wants to tell him...?

🤣

This is not timberwolves thibs. This guy is a mix of old school, new school, whisperer therapy, all kinds of new age stuff. KAT will be joining a better team environment and structure. Players like hart and Jules, you can’t fail. KAT is too talented to pass on. For the right price. I’m not over paying.

This seems to follow the same "trade Randle while his value is at an all-time high"...

KAT is KAT. If is price is right, it's for a reason.

The fact his the Knicks system is dependent on interior rim protection. Kat and Randle on the floor together means there is none.

I don't think the Knicks or Thibs views the offensive upside so vast they literally abandon rim protection.

And I do not bank on the notion the second time around Thibs will defense whisper KAT into being a player he has not been since college a decade ago.

Knickoftime wrote:

blkexec wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

blkexec wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:I'm feeling more and more KAT is the guy we should be targeting.

Haters would love him.

Because I haven’t been corrupted with the images of his decline, I see nothing wrong adding a talent like this FOR THE RIGHT PRICE.

If he’s better in the post I would’ve mind trying a lineup with him at center. Randle shooting 3. Brunson has Randle, Grimes or IQ open, and KAT in the post? Not sure how anybody would frown on that. This is coming from a “defense wins championships guy”. I just have a feeling The All Mighty Thibs will make KAT a better defender than he was in Minnesota.

So, who wants to tell him...?

🤣

This is not timberwolves thibs. This guy is a mix of old school, new school, whisperer therapy, all kinds of new age stuff. KAT will be joining a better team environment and structure. Players like hart and Jules, you can’t fail. KAT is too talented to pass on. For the right price. I’m not over paying.

This seems to follow the same "trade Randle while his value is at an all-time high"...

KAT is KAT. If is price is right, it's for a reason.

The fact his the Knicks system is dependent on interior rim protection. Kat and Randle on the floor together means there is none.

I don't think the Knicks or Thibs views the offensive upside so vast they literally abandon rim protection.

And I do not bank on the notion the second time around Thibs will defense whisper KAT into being a player he has not been since college a decade ago.

What is Kats defensive rating? Not sure but though it was close to league average. Do feel a players effort on defense can be affected by coaches style. So I agree with you that Thibs will always favor the rim protection over offense.

Question for me is who do we give up to get Kats? Assuming the above has Randle and Brunson staying. And how that +/- would translate to wins and losses. I like Kat, but as always, the cost is the key.