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Are the Rockets better after trade or has jeff maxed out.
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playa2
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11/19/2004  10:00 AM
We all heard TNT crew K.Smith and Sir Charles talk about how pathetic the strategy of half court play makes Houston look so bad and allowing a 3 pt attempt when up by only 2 with time running out after a timeout. Looked just like the knicks rotations on defense just before he left us. Last yr with Mobley and Francis they destroyed us at home. Jeff had the pick and roll with ewing and starks and couldn't stop it all night with Dirty Kurty abusing the rockets all night.

Did Mobley and Francis know something that Vangundy hasn't figured out yet about balance? Has Vandummy got to smart for his own britches? These are questions that will be addressed this season.

Some here still make excuses for "Beetle Juice" but in IMHO he has maxed out and would be better suited as a defensive coordinator.

Jeff is well documented on this site with postas saying he knows defense and that's what wins championships which is true, my question is when will this(so called) best defensive coach prove that he can create an atmosphere where he can get along with players who are creative with the ball and bite his tongue about holding guys back from allowing them to flow on the offense end. He is the only head coach to have great scorers(FRANCIS AND MCGRADY) and make them into avg scorers with his style of play.

[Edited by - playa2 on 11/19/2004 10:12:42]
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
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Nalod
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11/19/2004  10:37 AM
Barkley is a moron. 2nd guessing is very easy. Craw hit an off balance shot 5 feet from the circle and banked it. Im glad he hit it, but its a low percentage situation.

Francis did not want to share the rock with Yao in Houston.


Ewing would not permit the knicks to run, ask don nelson about that. Ewing could not score if the team went a runnin. Ewing had his dark side also.

Yao is not fleet of foot either. Nor Shaq. You don't run with dominant big men.

Rockets need a point to pull players away from Yao.

10gmes in the season and your cooking Van Gundy. Francis was a knuckle head, he needed to move away from "his" team. It happens.

You think the knicks would have beaten the spurs with different coaching?

[Edited by - nalod on 11/19/2004 10:41:24]
fishmike
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11/19/2004  10:54 AM
last year Det won a title with defense, so discounting that is stupid. What I see right now is a lot of new players adjusting to a system. I remember in 99 it took really 40 games for the Knicks to "get it" and gell, especially on D. Then they were a Ewing injury away from a title perhaps.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
playa2
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11/19/2004  11:14 AM
Posted by Nalod:



Francis did not want to share the rock with Yao in Houston.

Oh so according to you the problem is Francis and not GUNDY.

Well Grant Hill isn't complaning about playing with "STEVIE FRANCHISE" Hmmmmm


JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
playa2
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11/19/2004  11:17 AM
Posted by fishmike:

last year Det won a title with defense, so discounting that is stupid. What I see right now is a lot of new players adjusting to a system. I remember in 99 it took really 40 games for the Knicks to "get it" and gell, especially on D. Then they were a Ewing injury away from a title perhaps.

In 1999 it took injuries for Gundy to play Camby for us to play fast break ball and not just walk it up and feed the post. Nobody discounted playing defense stop tripping, Detroit played defense but they out scored teams too. Larry Brown understands balance AND JEFF VANDUMMY DOESN'T. This is why gundy will always be a notch below the elite coaches.
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
fishmike
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11/19/2004  11:20 AM
ahhh... great points.

Remind me who got hurt in 99?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
martin
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11/19/2004  11:27 AM
Posted by playa2:
Posted by Nalod:



Francis did not want to share the rock with Yao in Houston.

Oh so according to you the problem is Francis and not GUNDY.

Well Grant Hill isn't complaning about playing with "STEVIE FRANCHISE" Hmmmmm


it's about style of play. Francis could not take advantage or play with a post player like Yao. JVG wants the O to start and and go through Yao, plain and simple.

In Orlando you have Hill, Francis, Mobley, Kato and Howard. Howard rebounds and plays D. The offense is up tempo.

Are you watching basketball?
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fishmike
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11/19/2004  11:47 AM
Are you watching basketball?
probably not
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
playa2
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11/19/2004  12:27 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by playa2:
Posted by Nalod:



Francis did not want to share the rock with Yao in Houston.

Oh so according to you the problem is Francis and not GUNDY.

Well Grant Hill isn't complaning about playing with "STEVIE FRANCHISE" Hmmmmm


it's about style of play. Francis could not take advantage or play with a post player like Yao. JVG wants the O to start and and go through Yao, plain and simple.

In Orlando you have Hill, Francis, Mobley, Kato and Howard. Howard rebounds and plays D. The offense is up tempo.

Are you watching basketball?

Well you have to tell that to Kenny the "jet" Smith and Charles Barkley they made comments about Gundy's style and they didn't just watch b-ball they played professionally.
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
fishmike
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11/19/2004  12:34 PM
my bad... If Barkley said it it must be true
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Rich
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11/19/2004  12:50 PM
Can we give the Rockets 15 to 20 games to come together before we decided that Van Gundy's coaching is the problem?

They will likely upgrade the PG position and then make a run that will last into the playoffs.
TMS
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11/19/2004  12:53 PM
just regarding ORL, they have very nice team balance right now after the trade...Dwight Howard looks to be a guaranteed stud, & the comeback of Grant Hill has really been a God-send for that team...

Francis is playing the best ball of his career, & he looks re-energized & as explosive as i've ever seen him...Cato is a nice shotblocking presence down low as well, & Cuttino adds some nice perimeter scoring as well.

i wonder if T-Mac is regretting his decision to go to HOU now?
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
gunsnewing
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11/19/2004  1:00 PM
I do agree that JVG will ruin the career of a great guard. Even H20 was at his best under Chaney. Actually H20 worked because he's strictly a shooter, he doesn't create on offense. JVG has to change his ways otherwise he will waste the careers of tracy and yao. I don't even like Tracy but he is better than 16pts per
Vmart
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11/19/2004  1:09 PM
JVG's problem has never been Defense his problem is Offense. One thing about the rockets they aren't going to blow out anyone as long as JVG is the coach. Lord help him when they meet antoher defensive oriented team, JVG isn't creative enough on the O-side.
playa2
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11/19/2004  1:37 PM
Posted by Rich:

Can we give the Rockets 15 to 20 games to come together before we decided that Van Gundy's coaching is the problem?

They will likely upgrade the PG position and then make a run that will last into the playoffs.

Ok Rich, I'll give ya 82 gms ok. Bobby i'll throw it off the backboard for a triple double for atlanta is the Rockets upgrade when he comes off the IR.
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
martin
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11/19/2004  1:52 PM
Posted by playa2:
Posted by martin:
Posted by playa2:
Posted by Nalod:



Francis did not want to share the rock with Yao in Houston.

Oh so according to you the problem is Francis and not GUNDY.

Well Grant Hill isn't complaning about playing with "STEVIE FRANCHISE" Hmmmmm


it's about style of play. Francis could not take advantage or play with a post player like Yao. JVG wants the O to start and and go through Yao, plain and simple.

In Orlando you have Hill, Francis, Mobley, Kato and Howard. Howard rebounds and plays D. The offense is up tempo.

Are you watching basketball?

Well you have to tell that to Kenny the "jet" Smith and Charles Barkley they made comments about Gundy's style and they didn't just watch b-ball they played professionally.

look man, put some thought into this.

Kenny and Charles are correct in a way: the Rockets do need to create more opportunities where they can run. Running a good fast break helps every single freakin team in the league. The question is, CAN THEY? Can they push the ball???

Ward? No. Sura? Maybe. TLue? Maybe more than Ward, but then you lose out on the defensive end.

When you are building a new team style - T-Mac with Yao - you have to first establish an identity. And the management has stated emphatically that they are going with Yao, and that means a half court game. You have to first learn that before you add more components. And that does mean losing a few ball games. So, first learn the half-court game and then learn defense and the running will come.

To run you need defense and rebounding. Besides Yao, who is doing that on the Rockets? Taylor, McGrady? No.

To play an effective half court game with the talent of Yao you need dead-eye 3-point shooters to spread the floor and guys who know how to cut to the basket (movement away from the ball). Who does that on the Rockets.

So, Kenny and Charles in the end are right, the Rockets do need to run more. But what they didn't tell you is all the middle stuff that they also need to do.

that's basketball.
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GoNyGoNyGo
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11/19/2004  2:05 PM
Playa - one question. Why are you so obsessed with JVG? What has he done to you?

The Rockets will learn to play with eachohter. Ward is NOT the answer at PG. I am suprised JVG went back to him. They need a Hinrich type of PG and they would be much better off.
codeunknown
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11/19/2004  2:11 PM
Barkley is a damn fool. He said they are a running team? Name me one player other than Mcgrady who is remotely capable of playing uptempo on the Rockets. What - Nachbar? And its not as if Mcgrady can't function in a half-court set, he's a scoring champion. Van Gundy is right in making Yao the primary option, he gets 5 footers at will. And no one is contesting his shot any time soon. The only thing I would do differently is play Tracy and Yao on the same side of the court more and run more screen and roll instead of isolation. Houston isn't struggling because of Van Gundy - they are struggling because they have crap at eevery other position that can't penetrate on offense or rotate on defense because of age and lack of athleticism.
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playa2
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11/19/2004  4:16 PM
Posted by codeunknown:

Barkley is a damn fool. He said they are a running team? Name me one player other than Mcgrady who is remotely capable of playing uptempo on the Rockets. What - Nachbar? And its not as if Mcgrady can't function in a half-court set, he's a scoring champion. Van Gundy is right in making Yao the primary option, he gets 5 footers at will. And no one is contesting his shot any time soon. The only thing I would do differently is play Tracy and Yao on the same side of the court more and run more screen and roll instead of isolation. Houston isn't struggling because of Van Gundy - they are struggling because they have crap at eevery other position that can't penetrate on offense or rotate on defense because of age and lack of athleticism.

#1 Lue is the true pg on their roster who can play uptempo, not Ward but that is who VG starts.

#2 Nachbar is their 3 pt shooter along with J.Jackson at this time Nachbar is shooting 61% from behind the arc and has made 8 so far, Jackson has made 18 and shooting 38%.

#3Rebounding is their main problem, Yao gets 8.2 a game tops for them.

Don't blame their roster now , they had 2 guys who could slash to the basket in Mobley and Francis and someone to get boards in cato along with ming.

They had to make a change for gundy's sake case closed.

JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
TheloniusMonk
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11/19/2004  5:01 PM
I can apprieciate what a lot of people are saying in this threat but here's the reality: Playa is going to every now and then create a thread that seems logical at first but then it's just going to turn into a bash VanGundy fest on his part. It takes a certain kind of person to have a vendetta against a coach who is long gone and has already moved on to other things as we have. He was the Knicks' coach 3 coaches ago for God's sake get over it! The guy coaches a team we will face 2 times a year. We went to Houston and we beat them. Case closed damn. Who cares about who's fault it is in Houston? I'm not a Rockets fan neither is most people on this board. So unless one is a big time TMac or Yao fan....who cares? I couldn't give a damn if Houston wins all 82 games or loses all 82 games. As long as we beat them!

If u want to talk about a coach talk about Don Nelson (who was our coach 4 coaches ago). WE'RE PLAYING DALLAS TONIGHT. The Rockets game is over now...talk about JVG when they come to the Garden.
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