HofstraBBall wrote:As Martin said a few days back, Kid has to show more.
Watching him basket hang and just be a soft three point shooter is tough to watch. Not the kid that I pleaded to be drafted.
Imo, we are better off giving that rotation spot to Cam. Who at least brings more defensive energy. Which seems a constant cry from all the "Play the yoots' crowd. Cam is also a possible future piece that we need to take a good look at. Especially as it has been rumored that he may be gone soon. Not saying we should give up on Obi or trade him just that, right now, he is not doing enough to stay in the rotation besides the fact he was a high draft pick (so was Cam) and that we have no one else to back up Randle. With Obi possibly missing some games with sore knee, it might be something to try. In terms of development, Obi needs to work on being more versatile. Playing someone in the rotation may give him that message.

So I'm not saying he doesn't need to improve or show more. But I also think he's in a no win situation. For example, Obi comes into the league and all he hears is he needs to learn how to shoot 3s. Playing Obi and Mitch together will be easy to guard if both operate in the paint. So Obi said ok, I'm more than a quick fastbreak scorer and dunker, I'm a shooter as well. He spends the off season working on the 3s, now hes not only jumping out of the gym, won the slam dunk contest, he's also our best 3pt shooter in year 2.

I believe the kid has shown a lot more, so I disagree with that statement. Obi's problem is fit with this team, sitting behind Randle. There's nothing else he can show, that he hasn't already shown. All he's going to do is improve on everything, which takes time. The issue is not Obi (in my opinion). Just have to decide. Are we resigning Obi to a roll players contract (ignoring he was picked #8). I'm fine with that. Forcing Obi to meet the expectations of a #8 pick? Not going to happen as long as Randle is on the team. But I'm fine with Obi coming in and launching 3, as long as they are going in.

blkexec wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:As Martin said a few days back, Kid has to show more.
Watching him basket hang and just be a soft three point shooter is tough to watch. Not the kid that I pleaded to be drafted.
Imo, we are better off giving that rotation spot to Cam. Who at least brings more defensive energy. Which seems a constant cry from all the "Play the yoots' crowd. Cam is also a possible future piece that we need to take a good look at. Especially as it has been rumored that he may be gone soon. Not saying we should give up on Obi or trade him just that, right now, he is not doing enough to stay in the rotation besides the fact he was a high draft pick (so was Cam) and that we have no one else to back up Randle. With Obi possibly missing some games with sore knee, it might be something to try. In terms of development, Obi needs to work on being more versatile. Playing someone in the rotation may give him that message.

So I'm not saying he doesn't need to improve or show more. But I also think he's in a no win situation. For example, Obi comes into the league and all he hears is he needs to learn how to shoot 3s. Playing Obi and Mitch together will be easy to guard if both operate in the paint. So Obi said ok, I'm more than a quick fastbreak scorer and dunker, I'm a shooter as well. He spends the off season working on the 3s, now hes not only jumping out of the gym, won the slam dunk contest, he's also our best 3pt shooter in year 2.

I believe the kid has shown a lot more, so I disagree with that statement. Obi's problem is fit with this team, sitting behind Randle. There's nothing else he can show, that he hasn't already shown. All he's going to do is improve on everything, which takes time. The issue is not Obi (in my opinion). Just have to decide. Are we resigning Obi to a roll players contract (ignoring he was picked #8). I'm fine with that. Forcing Obi to meet the expectations of a #8 pick? Not going to happen as long as Randle is on the team. But I'm fine with Obi coming in and launching 3, as long as they are going in.

I've said this once before to another poster and I don't mean this as a dig on you directly.

But your statement, to me, is exactly the wrong attitude. The NBA is a dog eat dog world. Nothing is given to you and as a player if you come in thinking that you need to be given the right situation to succeed, you are already behind the 8-ball. You will fail unless something fluke-y happens.

It's the same at any high level, cut throat environment. You want to succeed as a small business owner, you don't cry that you don't know the right people, you show up at their door an introduce yourself and figure out how to push your agenda. If you want to make it in finance in NYC, you best be ready to swim with the sharks and get prepared for your cube mate to stab you in the back for that one slice of opportunity that pops its head out.

Fuck no-win situations. If you want to **** the prom queen, you best come with you best moves and make sure they hit the mark otherwise you gonna have to wait til 2am when all the leftovers are drunk at the bar and I hope you like sloppy seconds.

Right now Obi is swimming in Randle sloppy second land, to complete the metaphore

blkexec wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:As Martin said a few days back, Kid has to show more.
Watching him basket hang and just be a soft three point shooter is tough to watch. Not the kid that I pleaded to be drafted.
Imo, we are better off giving that rotation spot to Cam. Who at least brings more defensive energy. Which seems a constant cry from all the "Play the yoots' crowd. Cam is also a possible future piece that we need to take a good look at. Especially as it has been rumored that he may be gone soon. Not saying we should give up on Obi or trade him just that, right now, he is not doing enough to stay in the rotation besides the fact he was a high draft pick (so was Cam) and that we have no one else to back up Randle. With Obi possibly missing some games with sore knee, it might be something to try. In terms of development, Obi needs to work on being more versatile. Playing someone in the rotation may give him that message.

So I'm not saying he doesn't need to improve or show more. But I also think he's in a no win situation. For example, Obi comes into the league and all he hears is he needs to learn how to shoot 3s. Playing Obi and Mitch together will be easy to guard if both operate in the paint. So Obi said ok, I'm more than a quick fastbreak scorer and dunker, I'm a shooter as well. He spends the off season working on the 3s, now hes not only jumping out of the gym, won the slam dunk contest, he's also our best 3pt shooter in year 2.

I believe the kid has shown a lot more, so I disagree with that statement. Obi's problem is fit with this team, sitting behind Randle. There's nothing else he can show, that he hasn't already shown. All he's going to do is improve on everything, which takes time. The issue is not Obi (in my opinion). Just have to decide. Are we resigning Obi to a roll players contract (ignoring he was picked #8). I'm fine with that. Forcing Obi to meet the expectations of a #8 pick? Not going to happen as long as Randle is on the team. But I'm fine with Obi coming in and launching 3, as long as they are going in.

I love Obi but the word for him is soft. After missing a jumper he should be attacking but he doesnt look to draw contact, doesnt attack the rim, is a mediocre rebounder... the only one Obi is stuck behind is himself.

And YES. Cam is a great fit to take Obi's minutes behind Randle. Or just play 8 and stick RJ and his fat ass at the 4

Obi likes to leak out with no defenders and dunk after passing ball under his leg. can only do that so often

Obi needs to channel Amar'e. Maybe the two should start texting each other.

franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

blkexec wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:As Martin said a few days back, Kid has to show more.
Watching him basket hang and just be a soft three point shooter is tough to watch. Not the kid that I pleaded to be drafted.
Imo, we are better off giving that rotation spot to Cam. Who at least brings more defensive energy. Which seems a constant cry from all the "Play the yoots' crowd. Cam is also a possible future piece that we need to take a good look at. Especially as it has been rumored that he may be gone soon. Not saying we should give up on Obi or trade him just that, right now, he is not doing enough to stay in the rotation besides the fact he was a high draft pick (so was Cam) and that we have no one else to back up Randle. With Obi possibly missing some games with sore knee, it might be something to try. In terms of development, Obi needs to work on being more versatile. Playing someone in the rotation may give him that message.

So I'm not saying he doesn't need to improve or show more. But I also think he's in a no win situation. For example, Obi comes into the league and all he hears is he needs to learn how to shoot 3s. Playing Obi and Mitch together will be easy to guard if both operate in the paint. So Obi said ok, I'm more than a quick fastbreak scorer and dunker, I'm a shooter as well. He spends the off season working on the 3s, now hes not only jumping out of the gym, won the slam dunk contest, he's also our best 3pt shooter in year 2.

I believe the kid has shown a lot more, so I disagree with that statement. Obi's problem is fit with this team, sitting behind Randle. There's nothing else he can show, that he hasn't already shown. All he's going to do is improve on everything, which takes time. The issue is not Obi (in my opinion). Just have to decide. Are we resigning Obi to a roll players contract (ignoring he was picked #8). I'm fine with that. Forcing Obi to meet the expectations of a #8 pick? Not going to happen as long as Randle is on the team. But I'm fine with Obi coming in and launching 3, as long as they are going in.

like how do you make up these naratives? Obi was drafted BECAUSE he shot 40% from 3 AND was an uber athlete 2 way college SUPERSTAR.

I love Obi but the word for him is soft. After missing a jumper he should be attacking but he doesnt look to draw contact, doesnt attack the rim, is a mediocre rebounder... the only one Obi is stuck behind is himself.

And YES. Cam is a great fit to take Obi's minutes behind Randle. Or just play 8 and stick RJ and his fat ass at the 4

Cam should take RJ's minutes. He's been atrocious just about all season. Again, would love to see RJ go to the bench for a stretch to try to right his play- think it would pay dividends, like giving McBride minutes has.

What if benching him phucks him up? There is no upside. He makes $30mm+ next year. You need to get him right or work on moving him. Benching RJ is not an option, and the only reasonable person to take his minutes is Grimes.

From a pure BB standpoint I would rather play Fourner than RJ as both suck on D but EF gets buckets. Not happening. RJ is starting until he gone

HofstraBBall wrote:

blkexec wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:As Martin said a few days back, Kid has to show more.
Watching him basket hang and just be a soft three point shooter is tough to watch. Not the kid that I pleaded to be drafted.
Imo, we are better off giving that rotation spot to Cam. Who at least brings more defensive energy. Which seems a constant cry from all the "Play the yoots' crowd. Cam is also a possible future piece that we need to take a good look at. Especially as it has been rumored that he may be gone soon. Not saying we should give up on Obi or trade him just that, right now, he is not doing enough to stay in the rotation besides the fact he was a high draft pick (so was Cam) and that we have no one else to back up Randle. With Obi possibly missing some games with sore knee, it might be something to try. In terms of development, Obi needs to work on being more versatile. Playing someone in the rotation may give him that message.

So I'm not saying he doesn't need to improve or show more. But I also think he's in a no win situation. For example, Obi comes into the league and all he hears is he needs to learn how to shoot 3s. Playing Obi and Mitch together will be easy to guard if both operate in the paint. So Obi said ok, I'm more than a quick fastbreak scorer and dunker, I'm a shooter as well. He spends the off season working on the 3s, now hes not only jumping out of the gym, won the slam dunk contest, he's also our best 3pt shooter in year 2.

I believe the kid has shown a lot more, so I disagree with that statement. Obi's problem is fit with this team, sitting behind Randle. There's nothing else he can show, that he hasn't already shown. All he's going to do is improve on everything, which takes time. The issue is not Obi (in my opinion). Just have to decide. Are we resigning Obi to a roll players contract (ignoring he was picked #8). I'm fine with that. Forcing Obi to meet the expectations of a #8 pick? Not going to happen as long as Randle is on the team. But I'm fine with Obi coming in and launching 3, as long as they are going in.

Which one is it? Seems contradictive.

Obi is in year three. Shooting 35% and trending down. JB and JR at 33.5%. EF broke the Knick record and is sitting on the bench. Grant it, do give him credit for working on his three point shot. But lets not pretend he has had the same type of game since year one. Meaning one which prefers the fast break dunk and three.

Disagree with a couple of your other views.
First, why is it when a young player has several shortcomings we excuse it as he needs time or the right situation?
Frank was not good. Heard same excuse over and over. Knox was not that good. Heard the same excuse. Many former top draft picks are still looking for the "right situation" years after they have shown they just don't have enough to be solid NBA players.
What about kids that just ball despite the same circumstances? Did Grimes have the "right" situation. IQ? Mitch? Those kids came in and played from the get go. Showed confidence and the ability to be very good players. They took advantage of their shot. Bottom line, its on Obi to play better and be more diverse.

Imo, 15 to 20 minutes per game from year one is more than enough time to show something special. To date, except for a couple of games, he has shown to be a good energy piece off the bench. He runs the floor well but as a result of sacrificing the defensive rebound. He shoots the three better but has yet to show much else on offense. His size creates issues defending/rebounding bigger PF's and his foot speed is too slow to defend stretch 4's. My biggest issue is that he does not have that natural instinct to be aggressive and attack the basket. Does not like to mix it up down low. Battle for rebounds. Knock someone down on defense. That dog mentality. Basically soft for a PF but more like a SF. Without the foot quickness to be one. As flawed as Randle is, he is closer to what a PF in NY should be.

Like I said, not giving up on the kid. Still a long year to go. Has improved his three. But what he has shown so far is spelling role bench player. Bit disappointing for a 8th pick. Hope he proves me wrong. But do think coaches need to send a message of some of what I said above. He is still young and can add to his game. Unfortunately, right now, Cam , imo, can give us more until Obi changes.

There's simply too much I disagree with to reply to everything. It will take an entire book.

But I'll say this. Obi didn't pick himself at 8. Expectations comes with high picks. If Obi was pick last in the NBA we would not be having this conversation. Same with Frank.

IQ got PT was from jump. Grimes was forced to start eventhough he was hurt.

Please stop with the comparisons. It's not working.

The problem is not Obi. He's putting in the work and his game has improved. 10-15mins or less is what he's getting. RJ came into league and was handed 30plus mins. There was a fit. He was a high pick. There was no Randle type player in front of him.

The problem is the FO who picked him not Obi.

Obi Toppin averaged 20.3 points, 7.0 rebounds and 3.0 assists in 10 games as a starter in 2021-22.

I’ll use your word Fish, stop making up these stories to fit your narrative.

I personally don’t care about Obi like that, but it’s hard to ignore erroneous statements. Sorry

blkexec wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

blkexec wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:As Martin said a few days back, Kid has to show more.
Watching him basket hang and just be a soft three point shooter is tough to watch. Not the kid that I pleaded to be drafted.
Imo, we are better off giving that rotation spot to Cam. Who at least brings more defensive energy. Which seems a constant cry from all the "Play the yoots' crowd. Cam is also a possible future piece that we need to take a good look at. Especially as it has been rumored that he may be gone soon. Not saying we should give up on Obi or trade him just that, right now, he is not doing enough to stay in the rotation besides the fact he was a high draft pick (so was Cam) and that we have no one else to back up Randle. With Obi possibly missing some games with sore knee, it might be something to try. In terms of development, Obi needs to work on being more versatile. Playing someone in the rotation may give him that message.

So I'm not saying he doesn't need to improve or show more. But I also think he's in a no win situation. For example, Obi comes into the league and all he hears is he needs to learn how to shoot 3s. Playing Obi and Mitch together will be easy to guard if both operate in the paint. So Obi said ok, I'm more than a quick fastbreak scorer and dunker, I'm a shooter as well. He spends the off season working on the 3s, now hes not only jumping out of the gym, won the slam dunk contest, he's also our best 3pt shooter in year 2.

I believe the kid has shown a lot more, so I disagree with that statement. Obi's problem is fit with this team, sitting behind Randle. There's nothing else he can show, that he hasn't already shown. All he's going to do is improve on everything, which takes time. The issue is not Obi (in my opinion). Just have to decide. Are we resigning Obi to a roll players contract (ignoring he was picked #8). I'm fine with that. Forcing Obi to meet the expectations of a #8 pick? Not going to happen as long as Randle is on the team. But I'm fine with Obi coming in and launching 3, as long as they are going in.

Which one is it? Seems contradictive.

Obi is in year three. Shooting 35% and trending down. JB and JR at 33.5%. EF broke the Knick record and is sitting on the bench. Grant it, do give him credit for working on his three point shot. But lets not pretend he has had the same type of game since year one. Meaning one which prefers the fast break dunk and three.

Disagree with a couple of your other views.
First, why is it when a young player has several shortcomings we excuse it as he needs time or the right situation?
Frank was not good. Heard same excuse over and over. Knox was not that good. Heard the same excuse. Many former top draft picks are still looking for the "right situation" years after they have shown they just don't have enough to be solid NBA players.
What about kids that just ball despite the same circumstances? Did Grimes have the "right" situation. IQ? Mitch? Those kids came in and played from the get go. Showed confidence and the ability to be very good players. They took advantage of their shot. Bottom line, its on Obi to play better and be more diverse.

Imo, 15 to 20 minutes per game from year one is more than enough time to show something special. To date, except for a couple of games, he has shown to be a good energy piece off the bench. He runs the floor well but as a result of sacrificing the defensive rebound. He shoots the three better but has yet to show much else on offense. His size creates issues defending/rebounding bigger PF's and his foot speed is too slow to defend stretch 4's. My biggest issue is that he does not have that natural instinct to be aggressive and attack the basket. Does not like to mix it up down low. Battle for rebounds. Knock someone down on defense. That dog mentality. Basically soft for a PF but more like a SF. Without the foot quickness to be one. As flawed as Randle is, he is closer to what a PF in NY should be.

Like I said, not giving up on the kid. Still a long year to go. Has improved his three. But what he has shown so far is spelling role bench player. Bit disappointing for a 8th pick. Hope he proves me wrong. But do think coaches need to send a message of some of what I said above. He is still young and can add to his game. Unfortunately, right now, Cam , imo, can give us more until Obi changes.

There's simply too much I disagree with to reply to everything. It will take an entire book.

But I'll say this. Obi didn't pick himself at 8. Expectations comes with high picks. If Obi was pick last in the NBA we would not be having this conversation. Same with Frank.

IQ got PT was from jump. Grimes was forced to start eventhough he was hurt.

Please stop with the comparisons. It's not working.

The problem is not Obi. He's putting in the work and his game has improved. 10-15mins or less is what he's getting. RJ came into league and was handed 30plus mins. There was a fit. He was a high pick. There was no Randle type player in front of him.

The problem is the FO who picked him not Obi.

Disagree away. That's what forums are for. Whole book may be an overstatement though. Only stated a couple of opinions.

IQ averaged under 10mpg first 12 games. Several DNP's before putting up solid numbers and being noticed. That was followed by more games under 15 minutes. Followed by a 31 point breakout game. He went on to average 19 minutes for rest of season and forced Thibs to play him more than 20 minutes in several games because of his multidimensional play. Grimes averaged 17mpg his first year. Obi has averaged 17 minutes per game since he was drafted.

Feel its lest about minutes and more about IQ and Grimes not being one dimensional.
Obi has taken 171 shots this year. 97 have been from 3pt. 29 from dunks. Only 9 from further than 10 feet. Out of all made baskets only 6 off initiated drives.

What else did we disagree on?