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Van horn is playing like the first part of the year before he got hurt
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BRIGGS
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11/18/2004  10:58 AM
actually better. The bottom line is we traded an 11-5 player for a 17 and 7 player who has better fundamentals. I think for this team as it was constucted, I believe Van Horn and Doleac were the better fit to compliment Marbury. Nazr may be better indivdually than doleac, but i think for this team, those guys were better.
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fishmike
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11/18/2004  11:04 AM
Ive just seen KVH play so horribly time and time again in crunch time to worry about losing the impact he has on the team. Heck, moving forward we are better with Penny and Ariza getting minutes there than KVH. Keith is and always has been a productive player, but he melts when you need him. Do you want to feel good about the stat sheet or about winning games? Marbury (the first time) Kidd/Kmart, Iverson, Larry Brown.. none of these guys wanted KVH because he melts under pressure.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
MS
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11/18/2004  11:18 AM
He shot 10-14 last night had 26 pts 6rbs, 5ass. He is playing great, and he is a great third option which he was on the Knicks....Isiah terrible move, we all know that
Nalod
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11/18/2004  11:22 AM
AT least he is thought of at crunch time.

I watched the end of the Wash-Toronto game last nite.

Last two shots were garbage by both teams. What a joke.

Crunch time? Most players fold up.

Briggs, man ain't it time to just let it go. Isiah messed up on this one. Maybe he caved to Marbury's ego. Marbury might have this one on him also!
Elite
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11/18/2004  1:26 PM
vanhorn = shaky in crunch time

tt = shaky all the time

come on now... lol
NYK3
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11/18/2004  2:02 PM
PLEEEEASE ENOUGH WITH VAN HORN AND TT...Most of us feel it was a mistake, CAN WE ALL PLEASE JUST FORGET ABOUT IT AND MOVE ON? Geez it seems like every other thread is about TT and Van Horn, PLEASE ENOUGH ALREADY

I wasn't born with enough middle fingers!!!
Marv
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11/18/2004  2:20 PM
Posted by NYK3:

PLEEEEASE ENOUGH WITH VAN HORN AND TT...Most of us feel it was a mistake, CAN WE ALL PLEASE JUST FORGET ABOUT IT AND MOVE ON? Geez it seems like every other thread is about TT and Van Horn, PLEASE ENOUGH ALREADY

It's because we lost 2 in a row and TT has really positioned himself to be a scapegoat. A win tonight would be sweet on a lot of levels. It's interesting whoever said TT is flinching because of his foul from Collins. I hadn't thought of it that way before but it really does make some sense. i remember a bad fall on the court took Ralph Sampson right out of his career. Now there's an apt comparison for TT isn't it?
BigSm00th
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11/18/2004  2:26 PM
In hind sight it was a bad move.

Isiah made the trade to make the Knicks more athletic. Now with Ariza and Crawford on the team, TT and Nazr's athleticism isn't needed. If he hadn't made the move (keep in mind Doleac should've been back here but was claimed off waivers first, nothing you can do about that), I think the team would be better off now with the better shooting of KVH and the pick and roll with Doleac.

What are you going to do?
#Knickstaps
nykdunk
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11/18/2004  2:33 PM
nah, TT just sucks.

In at least 3 out of our 6 games so far we haven't even played well enough to made this "crunch time" you speak of necessary because we're usually way out of it by then. KVH performs for 3 quarters. TT performs (maybe) for 1. That makes KVH 3x the player. Simple mathematics. Isiah took a risk hoping TT's potential would propel him into a 4 quarter player, but it backfired. Talent without perserverence is like a car without an engine.
Marv
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11/18/2004  2:40 PM
Posted by NYKDUNK:

nah, TT just sucks.

In at least 3 out of our 6 games so far we haven't even played well enough to made this "crunch time" you speak of necessary because we're usually way out of it by then. KVH performs for 3 quarters. TT performs (maybe) for 1. That makes KVH 3x the player. Simple mathematics. Isiah took a risk hoping TT's potential would propel him into a 4 quarter player, but it backfired. Talent without perserverence is like a car without an engine.

Forget the crunch time. He hasn't looked at all during any quarter like the player he was for us last year. And personally I don't buy the "muscle" theory. He doesn't look any different physique wise than he did last year. And kick-boxing, or whatever kind of boxing it was, is going to stretch muscles, not bunch them up. It didn't hurt Kobe's jumper any.
Nalod
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11/18/2004  2:52 PM

Its Kick, or be kicked!



MaTT4281
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11/18/2004  2:56 PM
Yes, let's discuss this again. The other 6 or 7 threads comparing this trade don't quite cover everything.
I still like that trade, even though TT is playing horribly, I still have reason to believe that his play will eventually pick up. Then Nazr has been impressing me these last few games.

You can only carry one arguement for so long. Let it die people.
technomaster
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11/18/2004  5:36 PM
We shouldn't have trade Starks/Mills/Cummings for Sprewell... we lost the spark of our team and lost a lot of depth...

We also shouldn't have traded Mason for LJ--- we lost a far superior player, but got a better one for our team chemistry... (albeit a hothead in his battles w/ Mourning) Ewing was on his way out anyway--- no need to make Ewing happy.

And most definitely, we shouldn't have traded Ewing/Dudley for Travis Knight, Luc Longley, and Rice...

But once we got Rice, we shouldn't have extended his contract--- which then made it possible to acquire Eisley and Shandon.

“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
Bonn1997
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11/18/2004  5:51 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:

actually better. The bottom line is we traded an 11-5 player for a 17 and 7 player who has better fundamentals. I think for this team as it was constucted, I believe Van Horn and Doleac were the better fit to compliment Marbury. Nazr may be better indivdually than doleac, but i think for this team, those guys were better.
Come on, we know you rush to judgment but you can't seriously think TT is an 11/5 player.
Rich
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11/18/2004  6:04 PM
This is been the ongoing theme of KVH's career. He teases you by playing like an All-Star, and then either gets a nagging injury or goes into a funk, and his stats go down by 25%.

Granted, TT is frustrating as well, although he isn't as bad as he is playing now, but it's not fair to judge their respective games when one is part of a bull market and the other is part of a bear market.
technomaster
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11/19/2004  9:04 AM
For his career, TT is much more of a 12/4 type of guy than a 11/5 guy. He's never averaged 5 rebounds over the course of a full season, but of course we all know that.

:)
“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
Bonn1997
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11/19/2004  9:17 AM
Posted by technomaster:

For his career, TT is much more of a 12/4 type of guy than a 11/5 guy. He's never averaged 5 rebounds over the course of a full season, but of course we all know that.

:)
In that case, for his career Jermaine O'Neal is a 12/7 player. Maybe we can trade Kurt Thomas for him. Their career numbers are similar enough and Kurt's making less money.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 11/19/2004 09:18:50]
nykdunk
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11/19/2004  9:26 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:


In that case, for his career Jermaine O'Neal is a 12/7 player. Maybe we can trade Kurt Thomas for him. Their career numbers are similar enough and Kurt's making less money.

Jermaine is far too consistent to be a Knick!
TMS
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11/19/2004  10:56 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by BRIGGS:

actually better. The bottom line is we traded an 11-5 player for a 17 and 7 player who has better fundamentals. I think for this team as it was constucted, I believe Van Horn and Doleac were the better fit to compliment Marbury. Nazr may be better indivdually than doleac, but i think for this team, those guys were better.
Come on, we know you rush to judgment but you can't seriously think TT is an 11/5 player.

Bonn, those are his career numbers that he's accumulated over a 7 year NBA career...if he's not an 11/5 player, what is he then? he has the talent to be a 20/8/5 player, but he isn't now nor has he ever proven for any stretch in his career that he could become that player...people have similar concerns about Eddy Curry being that type of player, but at least w/Curry you still have his youth & relative inexperience to hope for more...TT simply doesn't show up to play on far too many occasions, & that's been his only consistency over his 7 year NBA career.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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Van horn is playing like the first part of the year before he got hurt
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