martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:Other than that, I can't shake the Athletic article about Thibs being the coach that players least want to play for. That's gotta change.

For me, it's literally funny to read that. You know what type of guy would definitely love to play for Thibs? Jimmy ****ing Butler.

Thibs has made Mitch into one of the best offensive rebounders in the league. IQ is considered a top 6th man in the league. Randle goes from not being signed by 2 different teams (they literally let him walk for free) and turns into all NBA when he got to Thibs. Brunson has made an incredible jump. Derrick Rose loves him. I will hang my ass out there and project that iHart is going to break out next year under Thibs, same with Grimes.

Guys that like to work hard and get pushed to new levels love Thibs. Guys that don't like to practice a lot don't want to be on a Thibs team? They can go kick rocks.

You work hard, and Thibs give you a chance but you gotta put in the work and effort. What kind of player wouldn't want that type of opportunity?

Cam, he didn't like it. Cam is going to work on his next min contract soon.

I've defended Thibs, but I've always said that I'm hopeful the time comes when the roster talent eventually outgrows him. I believe Thibs is a good coach with limitations. He is in the Nick Nurse, Dwayne Casey, Ty Lue, Frank Vogel tier. He might be a little better or worse than those guys, but it's close. Could any of those guys have gotten as much out of this roster as Thibs? Maybe, but it's not a given. I'm not convinced his offensive schemes are sophisticated enough to win a title, but we'll never know for sure until we see him with a talented enough roster.

Absolutely true.

Also true: Thibs took a team with Mitch who can't do anything offensive beside dunk the ball, RJ who can't shoot and Randle who is up and down and likes to ISO and accidentally turned them into one of the highest offensive efficient teams EVER.

He figured something out. It was not sustainable in playoffs against a very good Miami team that is playing bonkers but was good enough against a very well regarded defensive team in the Cavs.

Every single coach out there absolutely needs talent to get anywhere.

Not sure where you are getting this statement.

https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=A&sort=EFG_PCT

They ranked 20th in eFG this season. Not exactly cracking the all time leaderboards there.

EwingsGlass wrote:

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:Other than that, I can't shake the Athletic article about Thibs being the coach that players least want to play for. That's gotta change.

For me, it's literally funny to read that. You know what type of guy would definitely love to play for Thibs? Jimmy ****ing Butler.

Thibs has made Mitch into one of the best offensive rebounders in the league. IQ is considered a top 6th man in the league. Randle goes from not being signed by 2 different teams (they literally let him walk for free) and turns into all NBA when he got to Thibs. Brunson has made an incredible jump. Derrick Rose loves him. I will hang my ass out there and project that iHart is going to break out next year under Thibs, same with Grimes.

Guys that like to work hard and get pushed to new levels love Thibs. Guys that don't like to practice a lot don't want to be on a Thibs team? They can go kick rocks.

You work hard, and Thibs give you a chance but you gotta put in the work and effort. What kind of player wouldn't want that type of opportunity?

Cam, he didn't like it. Cam is going to work on his next min contract soon.

I've defended Thibs, but I've always said that I'm hopeful the time comes when the roster talent eventually outgrows him. I believe Thibs is a good coach with limitations. He is in the Nick Nurse, Dwayne Casey, Ty Lue, Frank Vogel tier. He might be a little better or worse than those guys, but it's close. Could any of those guys have gotten as much out of this roster as Thibs? Maybe, but it's not a given. I'm not convinced his offensive schemes are sophisticated enough to win a title, but we'll never know for sure until we see him with a talented enough roster.

Absolutely true.

Also true: Thibs took a team with Mitch who can't do anything offensive beside dunk the ball, RJ who can't shoot and Randle who is up and down and likes to ISO and accidentally turned them into one of the highest offensive efficient teams EVER.

He figured something out. It was not sustainable in playoffs against a very good Miami team that is playing bonkers but was good enough against a very well regarded defensive team in the Cavs.

Every single coach out there absolutely needs talent to get anywhere.

Not sure where you are getting this statement.

https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=A&sort=EFG_PCT

They ranked 20th in eFG this season. Not exactly cracking the all time leaderboards there.

Yeah, but they ranked 5th in offensive efficiency due, in part, to their offensive rebounding rate. As we've seen this playoff series, no offensive rebounds and we struggle to outscore some G-League teams.
http://www.espn.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats

blkexec wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

blkexec wrote:

blkexec wrote:Starting Hart killed this team, and you can see it now. Our offense is too fragile and Thibs should’ve went with IQ to start. Or you start hart and when grimes was back you start him. Grimes misses opens the floor more than harts make or miss.

Thibs is a great coach but slow to adjust.

Let me slow down on thibs. Because if our bench showed up, we have a series. Miami and Spo are better than the Knicks and Thibs. Miami star player is better than Knicks star player. Miami bench is better.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Hart started 1 game because Grimes was hurt (which they won). Then another (whether it is because Grimes was still limited or because we won the game he started instead of Grimes, pick a reason), which they lost. So he went back to Grimes this game (which made absolutely no difference whatsoever). I really don't see what all the belly aching is about other than to give Grimes an excuse to currently still suck in the playoffs (not just you, I do mean this in general, but I am just responding to your particular post)

Hindsight is 20/20 and it’s clear Miami was the better team, better coach and better superstar with a better supporting cast.

With that said, Grimes starting last night put a huge boost into the offense and that was clear. But when the team you are playing is out playing you in every category, we are going to lose regardless. If grimes started in game 3 instead of 4 maybe this team could’ve squeezed out a win in game 4. But at the end, I believe we still lose this series. If that’s your point then I agree.

But I still believe thibs has always been slow to adjust or react. But that’s an improvement because before I complained he never adjust or adjust extremely late. In this playoff series against spo, you see how a coach adjust on the fly. Spo was out there playing chess. Thibs is just a little slow on the trigger. And sometimes that leads to long winning streaks like we had during the season. But it’s a lost in the playoffs especially against a better team. Our star players was not consistent and theirs was.

So no point in having a long discussion on what thibs should’ve did. Eitherway we not beating the heat with this roster and coach in a 7 game series. Especially not a motivated heat that just knocked off the favorite team in the east, they had the motivation on their side from the jump. All these guys turned it up. Playoff Jimmy, playoff spo, playoff lowery and love was ready. Add in their roll players were better than ours. Deuce came in and caused a TO right away which was great. But on offense I’m like where’s the shooters. That second unit put us behind the curve in that second quarter, due to a lack of half court shooters (no IQ affect). Miami has a team full of half court shooters starting and off the bench. We have iso players and run iso plays. So if I was Miami I would’ve played zone as well. Iso Randle vs a zone. Brunson vs a zone.

Well I’m sure the FO will take note on this series and make sure we do not have these same issues next season, with or with out thibs.

I respect all of your opinions here, but there is no deeper meaning here. My only point was Thibs didn't just do it all willy nilly. There were legitimate reasons, and it wasn't like he was trying to fix something that isn't broke. He subsitituted a productive player for a non productive one to see if it stuck.

HofstraBBall wrote:

blkexec wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

blkexec wrote:

blkexec wrote:Starting Hart killed this team, and you can see it now. Our offense is too fragile and Thibs should’ve went with IQ to start. Or you start hart and when grimes was back you start him. Grimes misses opens the floor more than harts make or miss.

Thibs is a great coach but slow to adjust.

Let me slow down on thibs. Because if our bench showed up, we have a series. Miami and Spo are better than the Knicks and Thibs. Miami star player is better than Knicks star player. Miami bench is better.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Hart started 1 game because Grimes was hurt (which they won). Then another (whether it is because Grimes was still limited or because we won the game he started instead of Grimes, pick a reason), which they lost. So he went back to Grimes this game (which made absolutely no difference whatsoever). I really don't see what all the belly aching is about other than to give Grimes an excuse to currently still suck in the playoffs (not just you, I do mean this in general, but I am just responding to your particular post)

To many facts.

Love the way guys want to GM this **** ignoring simple facts.
Knicks have shot the ball worst than any other team in this year's playoffs. From 1 to 9. But people talking JHart starting over Grimes was the cause? Smh

I've said this before, back when we was rolling during the regular season. This team is VERY FRAGILE. If you sneeze on them, they fall apart.

Harts addition to this second unit was a lifesaver. Moving him to the starting unit was a major risk for both the second unit and how team guard our starting unit. With Hart starting, zone was the defense of choice. With Grimes starting, Miami plays less zone and their defense is less afective. And they're roll players can't hide in zone so they will use more legs in man and possibly miss some of those shots they made. So yes.

But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what fans think about hart starting or not. We not beating miami in a 7 game series period.

Comes down to one thing. Make some damn shots. Neither Hart or Grimes or anyone on the team is making any. That's why we are losing. Not because either of them are starting or not.

+100.

There is no way you can shoot 28% on 3's as a team (in today's NBA)-which is last for teams in the playoffs, shoot 43% FG as a team (good for 14th out of 16 teams), be 14th out of 16 teams for average points per game, and not be uber elite on defense and expect success to be sustainable.

I've said this before, this team is at it's absolute best in transition pushing the pace before the defense can get set (because they don't play in the half court very well), and getting easy offense off of their created turnovers.

Getting good shots in the half court is too hard for this team. They need those easy shots off of transition.

They let Miami control the pace of the series. They tried to play Miami's game and are getting railed. Miami isn't shooting lights out but they are being efficient with their possessions. If they can't get a good three, they will take 2 instead of going 3 or bust. While I hate the fact that they are getting away with alot of physical play (especially moving screens and screening with their legs), I can't be upset because the Knicks at their best were an extremely physical team on defense when they were at their best. Seems that they shrunk away when they got a team willing to hit back. The fact that IQ and Grimes and Obi are frozen doesn't help either. Those were your best 3 point shooters. No surprise that the percentages are what they are.

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:Other than that, I can't shake the Athletic article about Thibs being the coach that players least want to play for. That's gotta change.

For me, it's literally funny to read that. You know what type of guy would definitely love to play for Thibs? Jimmy ****ing Butler.

Thibs has made Mitch into one of the best offensive rebounders in the league. IQ is considered a top 6th man in the league. Randle goes from not being signed by 2 different teams (they literally let him walk for free) and turns into all NBA when he got to Thibs. Brunson has made an incredible jump. Derrick Rose loves him. I will hang my ass out there and project that iHart is going to break out next year under Thibs, same with Grimes.

Guys that like to work hard and get pushed to new levels love Thibs. Guys that don't like to practice a lot don't want to be on a Thibs team? They can go kick rocks.

You work hard, and Thibs give you a chance but you gotta put in the work and effort. What kind of player wouldn't want that type of opportunity?

Cam, he didn't like it. Cam is going to work on his next min contract soon.

I've defended Thibs, but I've always said that I'm hopeful the time comes when the roster talent eventually outgrows him. I believe Thibs is a good coach with limitations. He is in the Nick Nurse, Dwayne Casey, Ty Lue, Frank Vogel tier. He might be a little better or worse than those guys, but it's close. Could any of those guys have gotten as much out of this roster as Thibs? Maybe, but it's not a given. I'm not convinced his offensive schemes are sophisticated enough to win a title, but we'll never know for sure until we see him with a talented enough roster.

Absolutely true.

Also true: Thibs took a team with Mitch who can't do anything offensive beside dunk the ball, RJ who can't shoot and Randle who is up and down and likes to ISO and accidentally turned them into one of the highest offensive efficient teams EVER.

He figured something out. It was not sustainable in playoffs against a very good Miami team that is playing bonkers but was good enough against a very well regarded defensive team in the Cavs.

Every single coach out there absolutely needs talent to get anywhere.

Not sure where you are getting this statement.

https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=A&sort=EFG_PCT

They ranked 20th in eFG this season. Not exactly cracking the all time leaderboards there.

Yeah, but they ranked 5th in offensive efficiency due, in part, to their offensive rebounding rate. As we've seen this playoff series, no offensive rebounds and we struggle to outscore some G-League teams.
http://www.espn.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats

What we are seeing IMHO is a team that can’t make a 3point shot. When you can’t do that, defenses don’t have to guard you and can mostly just sit back and pack the paint or play some sort of zone, thereby absolutely eliminating offensive rebounding opportunities.

They do go hand in hand.

They've hovering around the bottom tier in pace all season . Our baskets are hard earned, but that grind isn't easily sustainable. That's why Hart's acquisition was so impactful. His style allows more easy points with IQ, Obi and iHart running in tow. That's something I'd like to see Thibs explore more in the off-season. Also, the turnovers. They were 4th in turnover rate during the season and are practically dead last in the playoffs (I'm not counting Cleveland). Possessions are critical in the post season and they don't have the offensive firepower to overcome it.

100%

I think the 2 biggest hurdles for the Knicks long term are both RJ & Randle and if they are really part of the long term core.

I’d guess not but that is still a 2-3 year decision and path.

EwingsGlass wrote:

Nalod wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:OK. I am no longer in the Fire Thibs camp anymore. When I was, the team had a 10 game losing streak and something needed to change. And it did. Thibs sat the players that weren't performing. My guy is Johnny Bryant though. I love his energy. So, when Thibs is ready to hang it up, I would hope we get Johnnie Bryant lined up.

THAT SAID, Mike Budenholzer has always been a guy I thought would make a fantastic coach in NY. I think coaches both sides of the ball extremely well and reminds me of Coach K in the sense that he devises systems that really accentuate the strengths of his players. For example, he turned Brook Lopez into a jump shooter to give Giannis room to work in the paint. I think he gets the most out of his players and keeps their shot charts relatively efficient. I remember seeing Kent Bazemore's shot chart in Atlanta and realizing that he wouldn't likely re-create that efficiency anywhere else.

Here is the thing. If the Detroit Pistons get a Bud to go with a top 5 pick this year, I think that they are tops in the east in next to no time. Cause he is going to create sets that get the most out of these players. I could see Bud going back to San Antonio to retire Pop. In that case, I'd be happy with him out of the east.

I am not saying fire Thibs. But if you had a choice to hire Bud or keep Thibs, I think you get Bud.

So, if Bud is like, "I want to take over the NY Knicks", I think you gotta think about that long and hard.

Other than that, I can't shake the Athletic article about Thibs being the coach that players least want to play for. That's gotta change.

He actually helped BroPez become a great defensive player! He always had long range shooting.
Tell me why Bud got nearly fired two years ago, and again did this month?
I'd like if team continues to succeed and Bryant takes over. Keep the culture.

I don't think you interpreted my comment the way I intended. Perhaps I wrote it a bit unclear. Bud and Bropez arrived in Milwaukee together in 2018. I acknowledge that Bropez started taking 3s in 2016-17 with the Nets and then in 17-18 with the Lakers. But I think Bud turned him into a jumpshooter by pulling him out of the paint. I think this is evidenced numerically by his % of field goals from 3-10 feet dropping dramatically and his offensive rebounds falling off the planet. Or visually, you can just see that he clears out and is at the top of the key - a position that allows him to get back on defense much quicker.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/lopezbr01.html

His other FG attempts decrease as Bud pulled him out of the box and put him outside the arc to make room for Giannis. He is out of Giannis' way.

Now, to address your question why he mutually agreed to part ways with Atlanta? Maybe you know better than me, but the sense was that ATL wanted to tank again in 2018-2019 and Bud didn't want to, after putting up a dog of a season in 17-18. He wasn't in for a re-build.

Why he is leaving Milwaukee? I think this is a function of silly human emotions. This is a mistake by the Bucks, in my opinion. If I am Milwaukee, maybe they are looking for a fresh face. Some of the efficiency stats that highlighted his championship run are lagging. Maybe they make him an offer to move into the front office and he isn't ready to leave the bench. All speculation. Maybe Milwaukee is ready to go full Ainge and blow things up, realizing they have an aging roster that is cap strapped and facing a hard course with the new CBA. And maybe Bud isn't in for the rebuild. But, as Windhorst said with regard to Giannis - I mean, doesn't it make sense to see if he signs the extension first? I think its just a mistake. Or maybe they already know some of these answers.

Appreciate the effort. Good points adding to a good convo. Have to remember Bud under a different owner was team president or GM, and coach in ATL that got reduced to just coach. The age of the all powerful coach/gm era has come and gone. few can do it.
ATL ownership has been a bit chaotic over the years to say the least. I like Bud but he is a “process guy”. Very inflexible, perhaps even less than Thibs. If Bucks don’t win chip two years ago he was out. They win, he gets 3 year extension. Team for two years has been underachieving in post season.
Knicks are far from that. Thibs was COY and got votes this year. Not the end all as we all know. We are in season three of the new culture and its from Leon on down. Thibs is part of it. Best scenario is some form of continuity should the team tune Thibs out. How and when? Perhaps two years of being a bonafide contender with no chip. Then you need someone to take it further. I don’t think you do it just becuase there are some coaches available who have won chips. We not talking about pop or Philjax types. We talking good coaches at the right place and right time. I don’t want to knock anyone down. Look at Doc Rivers. Won one in Boston, kinda thought two was in the cards. He goes to Clippers with a real team and kind of does not get it done. Same thus far in Philly. He is a very good coach but injuries and match ups matter. Pop had Timmy. PHil took Jordan to another level. Same for Kobe. Neither won without phil. Have to have the players no doubt, but the players also have to have the right team around them and coach/culture.

Milwaukee is justified in moving on from Bud for many reasons. new owner and the crossroads with Giannis and a vet team is right here and now. I don’t know what they should and could do from here. Its really hard to make long runs with great players in the NBA with cap rules promoting parity. Seems their time has come and gone. They have a chip, it was successful.

BigDaddyG wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:Other than that, I can't shake the Athletic article about Thibs being the coach that players least want to play for. That's gotta change.

For me, it's literally funny to read that. You know what type of guy would definitely love to play for Thibs? Jimmy ****ing Butler.

Thibs has made Mitch into one of the best offensive rebounders in the league. IQ is considered a top 6th man in the league. Randle goes from not being signed by 2 different teams (they literally let him walk for free) and turns into all NBA when he got to Thibs. Brunson has made an incredible jump. Derrick Rose loves him. I will hang my ass out there and project that iHart is going to break out next year under Thibs, same with Grimes.

Guys that like to work hard and get pushed to new levels love Thibs. Guys that don't like to practice a lot don't want to be on a Thibs team? They can go kick rocks.

You work hard, and Thibs give you a chance but you gotta put in the work and effort. What kind of player wouldn't want that type of opportunity?

Cam, he didn't like it. Cam is going to work on his next min contract soon.

I've defended Thibs, but I've always said that I'm hopeful the time comes when the roster talent eventually outgrows him. I believe Thibs is a good coach with limitations. He is in the Nick Nurse, Dwayne Casey, Ty Lue, Frank Vogel tier. He might be a little better or worse than those guys, but it's close. Could any of those guys have gotten as much out of this roster as Thibs? Maybe, but it's not a given. I'm not convinced his offensive schemes are sophisticated enough to win a title, but we'll never know for sure until we see him with a talented enough roster.

You do realize 3 out of the 4 coaches you mentioned have NBA championships, right? And Casey won a championship as an assistant and was a coach of the year?

I mean, Doc Rivers won a championship and he's thorough job of convincing me that he's mid since. What else did those guys have in common? They had a top 5 player in the league (at least at the time) on their roster. Doesn't necessarily mean they were the best coaches in the league at the time they won those titles. They clearly aren't trash, but a lot of pieces fell into place.

Maybe, but that "tier" is championship level coach. I'm not trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill and I kinda got what you are getting at by the context but your examples weren't the best. I'll show my age here because honestly NBA coaches are different now, but the type of tier I would put him in is the tier that guys like George Karl, Mike Fratello, Jerry Sloan level.

BigDaddyG wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:Other than that, I can't shake the Athletic article about Thibs being the coach that players least want to play for. That's gotta change.

For me, it's literally funny to read that. You know what type of guy would definitely love to play for Thibs? Jimmy ****ing Butler.

Thibs has made Mitch into one of the best offensive rebounders in the league. IQ is considered a top 6th man in the league. Randle goes from not being signed by 2 different teams (they literally let him walk for free) and turns into all NBA when he got to Thibs. Brunson has made an incredible jump. Derrick Rose loves him. I will hang my ass out there and project that iHart is going to break out next year under Thibs, same with Grimes.

Guys that like to work hard and get pushed to new levels love Thibs. Guys that don't like to practice a lot don't want to be on a Thibs team? They can go kick rocks.

You work hard, and Thibs give you a chance but you gotta put in the work and effort. What kind of player wouldn't want that type of opportunity?

Cam, he didn't like it. Cam is going to work on his next min contract soon.

I've defended Thibs, but I've always said that I'm hopeful the time comes when the roster talent eventually outgrows him. I believe Thibs is a good coach with limitations. He is in the Nick Nurse, Dwayne Casey, Ty Lue, Frank Vogel tier. He might be a little better or worse than those guys, but it's close. Could any of those guys have gotten as much out of this roster as Thibs? Maybe, but it's not a given. I'm not convinced his offensive schemes are sophisticated enough to win a title, but we'll never know for sure until we see him with a talented enough roster.

You do realize 3 out of the 4 coaches you mentioned have NBA championships, right? And Casey won a championship as an assistant and was a coach of the year?

I mean, Doc Rivers won a championship and he's thorough job of convincing me that he's mid since. What else did those guys have in common? They had a top 5 player in the league (at least at the time) on their roster. Doesn't necessarily mean they were the best coaches in the league at the time they won those titles. They clearly aren't trash, but a lot of pieces fell into place.

Maybe, but that "tier" is championship level coach. I'm not trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill and I kinda got what you are getting at by the context but your examples weren't the best. I'll show my age here because honestly NBA coaches are different now, but the type of tier I would put him in is the tier that guys like George Karl, Mike Fratello, Jerry Sloan level.

But Jerry Sloan is clearly a HOF coach and should be considered above those guys. Any list is subjective and we have fun with them all day. What do you consider more impressive, winning a title with prime LeBron James teamed up with a top 25 player or getting a team to the 5th seed with Elfrid Payton as your starting point guard?

Put Don Nelson at no 2 all time win list and Lenny Wilkens who did win a chip with Seattle in 1979.
Both former Knick coaches.

True, great coaches need great players. Great players need to be on great teams and coached to its strength. There is no straight up formula.
Red Auerbach had Bill Russell. Phil never won without jordan or Kobe, but neither did they. Its why Phil is at the top of my list. Not saying he my favorite, but respect to the job he did.
Next town Larry Brown knew when his voice wore out its welcome and moved on.
We had him, nellie and Wilkins.

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:Other than that, I can't shake the Athletic article about Thibs being the coach that players least want to play for. That's gotta change.

For me, it's literally funny to read that. You know what type of guy would definitely love to play for Thibs? Jimmy ****ing Butler.

Thibs has made Mitch into one of the best offensive rebounders in the league. IQ is considered a top 6th man in the league. Randle goes from not being signed by 2 different teams (they literally let him walk for free) and turns into all NBA when he got to Thibs. Brunson has made an incredible jump. Derrick Rose loves him. I will hang my ass out there and project that iHart is going to break out next year under Thibs, same with Grimes.

Guys that like to work hard and get pushed to new levels love Thibs. Guys that don't like to practice a lot don't want to be on a Thibs team? They can go kick rocks.

You work hard, and Thibs give you a chance but you gotta put in the work and effort. What kind of player wouldn't want that type of opportunity?

Cam, he didn't like it. Cam is going to work on his next min contract soon.

I've defended Thibs, but I've always said that I'm hopeful the time comes when the roster talent eventually outgrows him. I believe Thibs is a good coach with limitations. He is in the Nick Nurse, Dwayne Casey, Ty Lue, Frank Vogel tier. He might be a little better or worse than those guys, but it's close. Could any of those guys have gotten as much out of this roster as Thibs? Maybe, but it's not a given. I'm not convinced his offensive schemes are sophisticated enough to win a title, but we'll never know for sure until we see him with a talented enough roster.

Absolutely true.

Also true: Thibs took a team with Mitch who can't do anything offensive beside dunk the ball, RJ who can't shoot and Randle who is up and down and likes to ISO and accidentally turned them into one of the highest offensive efficient teams EVER.

He figured something out. It was not sustainable in playoffs against a very good Miami team that is playing bonkers but was good enough against a very well regarded defensive team in the Cavs.

Every single coach out there absolutely needs talent to get anywhere.

Not sure where you are getting this statement.

https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=A&sort=EFG_PCT

They ranked 20th in eFG this season. Not exactly cracking the all time leaderboards there.

Yeah, but they ranked 5th in offensive efficiency due, in part, to their offensive rebounding rate. As we've seen this playoff series, no offensive rebounds and we struggle to outscore some G-League teams.
http://www.espn.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats

Yes, thanks. Offensive efficiency rating

https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=A&sort=OFF_RATING

I’ve been thinking about this one. I clearly bow down to the mighty eFG stat as my standard of efficiency. And the Knicks OffRtg rankings are clearly due to their ability to obtain offensive rebounds - with offensive rebounds not being considered a new possession for this stat. Barrett stated it early in the season and I laughed. That he can get ‘Kobe’ assists - meaning put up light shots that he knows his team can have a high probability of finishing. And if this is the genius of our offense then I am overcritical of our offensive efficiency. For me, I didn’t think of it as being by design.

In fairness, we should then take a look statistically at the Kobe Assist. I would love to re-analyze Barrett using these. I would take any missed shot that is ORebounded with a direct score and remove that from shot attempts for his Kobe FG%. I’d catch some lucky ones. I’d add Kobe Assist to his Total Assists. Re-run things like PER with these numbers. Barrett might look a lot better.

We should get 538 on this.

Panos wrote:In an unusual never seem before tactic, Thibs reduced his rotation to 3!

😂