joec32033 wrote:

blkexec wrote:

blkexec wrote:Starting Hart killed this team, and you can see it now. Our offense is too fragile and Thibs should’ve went with IQ to start. Or you start hart and when grimes was back you start him. Grimes misses opens the floor more than harts make or miss.

Thibs is a great coach but slow to adjust.

Let me slow down on thibs. Because if our bench showed up, we have a series. Miami and Spo are better than the Knicks and Thibs. Miami star player is better than Knicks star player. Miami bench is better.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Hart started 1 game because Grimes was hurt (which they won). Then another (whether it is because Grimes was still limited or because we won the game he started instead of Grimes, pick a reason), which they lost. So he went back to Grimes this game (which made absolutely no difference whatsoever). I really don't see what all the belly aching is about other than to give Grimes an excuse to currently still suck in the playoffs (not just you, I do mean this in general, but I am just responding to your particular post)

Hindsight is 20/20 and it’s clear Miami was the better team, better coach and better superstar with a better supporting cast.

With that said, Grimes starting last night put a huge boost into the offense and that was clear. But when the team you are playing is out playing you in every category, we are going to lose regardless. If grimes started in game 3 instead of 4 maybe this team could’ve squeezed out a win in game 4. But at the end, I believe we still lose this series. If that’s your point then I agree.

But I still believe thibs has always been slow to adjust or react. But that’s an improvement because before I complained he never adjust or adjust extremely late. In this playoff series against spo, you see how a coach adjust on the fly. Spo was out there playing chess. Thibs is just a little slow on the trigger. And sometimes that leads to long winning streaks like we had during the season. But it’s a lost in the playoffs especially against a better team. Our star players was not consistent and theirs was.

So no point in having a long discussion on what thibs should’ve did. Eitherway we not beating the heat with this roster and coach in a 7 game series. Especially not a motivated heat that just knocked off the favorite team in the east, they had the motivation on their side from the jump. All these guys turned it up. Playoff Jimmy, playoff spo, playoff lowery and love was ready. Add in their roll players were better than ours. Deuce came in and caused a TO right away which was great. But on offense I’m like where’s the shooters. That second unit put us behind the curve in that second quarter, due to a lack of half court shooters (no IQ affect). Miami has a team full of half court shooters starting and off the bench. We have iso players and run iso plays. So if I was Miami I would’ve played zone as well. Iso Randle vs a zone. Brunson vs a zone.

Well I’m sure the FO will take note on this series and make sure we do not have these same issues next season, with or with out thibs.

Some also point to Thibs playoff record. Was he supposed to beat LeBron, Wade and Bosh?

And to compare Thibs to Spoelstra is unfair. Spoelstra is the best coach in the entire league and one of the best coaches in NBA history. It's kind of like complaining about Brunson for not being as good as Steph Curry. Brunson = Thibs, Curry = Spoelstra. There are good and there are those who are great. Spoelstra is great. He will make every coach look silly.

joec32033 wrote:

blkexec wrote:

blkexec wrote:Starting Hart killed this team, and you can see it now. Our offense is too fragile and Thibs should’ve went with IQ to start. Or you start hart and when grimes was back you start him. Grimes misses opens the floor more than harts make or miss.

Thibs is a great coach but slow to adjust.

Let me slow down on thibs. Because if our bench showed up, we have a series. Miami and Spo are better than the Knicks and Thibs. Miami star player is better than Knicks star player. Miami bench is better.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Hart started 1 game because Grimes was hurt (which they won). Then another (whether it is because Grimes was still limited or because we won the game he started instead of Grimes, pick a reason), which they lost. So he went back to Grimes this game (which made absolutely no difference whatsoever). I really don't see what all the belly aching is about other than to give Grimes an excuse to currently still suck in the playoffs (not just you, I do mean this in general, but I am just responding to your particular post)

To many facts.

Love the way guys want to GM this **** ignoring simple facts.
Knicks have shot the ball worst than any other team in this year's playoffs. From 1 to 9. But people talking JHart starting over Grimes was the cause? Smh

HofstraBBall wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

blkexec wrote:

blkexec wrote:Starting Hart killed this team, and you can see it now. Our offense is too fragile and Thibs should’ve went with IQ to start. Or you start hart and when grimes was back you start him. Grimes misses opens the floor more than harts make or miss.

Thibs is a great coach but slow to adjust.

Let me slow down on thibs. Because if our bench showed up, we have a series. Miami and Spo are better than the Knicks and Thibs. Miami star player is better than Knicks star player. Miami bench is better.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Hart started 1 game because Grimes was hurt (which they won). Then another (whether it is because Grimes was still limited or because we won the game he started instead of Grimes, pick a reason), which they lost. So he went back to Grimes this game (which made absolutely no difference whatsoever). I really don't see what all the belly aching is about other than to give Grimes an excuse to currently still suck in the playoffs (not just you, I do mean this in general, but I am just responding to your particular post)

To many facts.

Love the way guys want to GM this **** ignoring simple facts.
Knicks have shot the ball worst than any other team in this year's playoffs. From 1 to 9. But people talking JHart starting over Grimes was the cause? Smh

I've said this before, back when we was rolling during the regular season. This team is VERY FRAGILE. If you sneeze on them, they fall apart.

Harts addition to this second unit was a lifesaver. Moving him to the starting unit was a major risk for both the second unit and how team guard our starting unit. With Hart starting, zone was the defense of choice. With Grimes starting, Miami plays less zone and their defense is less afective. And they're roll players can't hide in zone so they will use more legs in man and possibly miss some of those shots they made. So yes.

But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what fans think about hart starting or not. We not beating miami in a 7 game series period.

THAT SAID, Mike Budenholzer has always been a guy I thought would make a fantastic coach in NY. I think coaches both sides of the ball extremely well and reminds me of Coach K in the sense that he devises systems that really accentuate the strengths of his players. For example, he turned Brook Lopez into a jump shooter to give Giannis room to work in the paint. I think he gets the most out of his players and keeps their shot charts relatively efficient. I remember seeing Kent Bazemore's shot chart in Atlanta and realizing that he wouldn't likely re-create that efficiency anywhere else.

Here is the thing. If the Detroit Pistons get a Bud to go with a top 5 pick this year, I think that they are tops in the east in next to no time. Cause he is going to create sets that get the most out of these players. I could see Bud going back to San Antonio to retire Pop. In that case, I'd be happy with him out of the east.

I am not saying fire Thibs. But if you had a choice to hire Bud or keep Thibs, I think you get Bud.

So, if Bud is like, "I want to take over the NY Knicks", I think you gotta think about that long and hard.

Other than that, I can't shake the Athletic article about Thibs being the coach that players least want to play for. That's gotta change.

EwingsGlass wrote:Other than that, I can't shake the Athletic article about Thibs being the coach that players least want to play for. That's gotta change.

For me, it's literally funny to read that. You know what type of guy would definitely love to play for Thibs? Jimmy ****ing Butler.

Thibs has made Mitch into one of the best offensive rebounders in the league. IQ is considered a top 6th man in the league. Randle goes from not being signed by 2 different teams (they literally let him walk for free) and turns into all NBA when he got to Thibs. Brunson has made an incredible jump. Derrick Rose loves him. I will hang my ass out there and project that iHart is going to break out next year under Thibs, same with Grimes.

Guys that like to work hard and get pushed to new levels love Thibs. Guys that don't like to practice a lot don't want to be on a Thibs team? They can go kick rocks.

You work hard, and Thibs give you a chance but you gotta put in the work and effort. What kind of player wouldn't want that type of opportunity?

Cam, he didn't like it. Cam is going to work on his next min contract soon.

Nalod wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:OK. I am no longer in the Fire Thibs camp anymore. When I was, the team had a 10 game losing streak and something needed to change. And it did. Thibs sat the players that weren't performing. My guy is Johnny Bryant though. I love his energy. So, when Thibs is ready to hang it up, I would hope we get Johnnie Bryant lined up.

THAT SAID, Mike Budenholzer has always been a guy I thought would make a fantastic coach in NY. I think coaches both sides of the ball extremely well and reminds me of Coach K in the sense that he devises systems that really accentuate the strengths of his players. For example, he turned Brook Lopez into a jump shooter to give Giannis room to work in the paint. I think he gets the most out of his players and keeps their shot charts relatively efficient. I remember seeing Kent Bazemore's shot chart in Atlanta and realizing that he wouldn't likely re-create that efficiency anywhere else.

Here is the thing. If the Detroit Pistons get a Bud to go with a top 5 pick this year, I think that they are tops in the east in next to no time. Cause he is going to create sets that get the most out of these players. I could see Bud going back to San Antonio to retire Pop. In that case, I'd be happy with him out of the east.

I am not saying fire Thibs. But if you had a choice to hire Bud or keep Thibs, I think you get Bud.

So, if Bud is like, "I want to take over the NY Knicks", I think you gotta think about that long and hard.

Other than that, I can't shake the Athletic article about Thibs being the coach that players least want to play for. That's gotta change.

He actually helped BroPez become a great defensive player! He always had long range shooting.
Tell me why Bud got nearly fired two years ago, and again did this month?
I'd like if team continues to succeed and Bryant takes over. Keep the culture.

I don't think you interpreted my comment the way I intended. Perhaps I wrote it a bit unclear. Bud and Bropez arrived in Milwaukee together in 2018. I acknowledge that Bropez started taking 3s in 2016-17 with the Nets and then in 17-18 with the Lakers. But I think Bud turned him into a jumpshooter by pulling him out of the paint. I think this is evidenced numerically by his % of field goals from 3-10 feet dropping dramatically and his offensive rebounds falling off the planet. Or visually, you can just see that he clears out and is at the top of the key - a position that allows him to get back on defense much quicker.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/lopezbr01.html

His other FG attempts decrease as Bud pulled him out of the box and put him outside the arc to make room for Giannis. He is out of Giannis' way.

Now, to address your question why he mutually agreed to part ways with Atlanta? Maybe you know better than me, but the sense was that ATL wanted to tank again in 2018-2019 and Bud didn't want to, after putting up a dog of a season in 17-18. He wasn't in for a re-build.

Why he is leaving Milwaukee? I think this is a function of silly human emotions. This is a mistake by the Bucks, in my opinion. If I am Milwaukee, maybe they are looking for a fresh face. Some of the efficiency stats that highlighted his championship run are lagging. Maybe they make him an offer to move into the front office and he isn't ready to leave the bench. All speculation. Maybe Milwaukee is ready to go full Ainge and blow things up, realizing they have an aging roster that is cap strapped and facing a hard course with the new CBA. And maybe Bud isn't in for the rebuild. But, as Windhorst said with regard to Giannis - I mean, doesn't it make sense to see if he signs the extension first? I think its just a mistake. Or maybe they already know some of these answers.

EwingsGlass wrote:Now, to address your question why he mutually agreed to part ways with Atlanta? Maybe you know better than me, but the sense was that ATL wanted to tank again in 2018-2019 and Bud didn't want to, after putting up a dog of a season in 17-18. He wasn't in for a re-build.

I think that was the main reason. I remember one of the reasons he was angling for the Knicks job is that he was confident that Dolan would spend whatever it takes to stay competitive. Fortunately for us we went the other way and got a season and change worth of Natasha Fizdale.

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:Other than that, I can't shake the Athletic article about Thibs being the coach that players least want to play for. That's gotta change.

For me, it's literally funny to read that. You know what type of guy would definitely love to play for Thibs? Jimmy ****ing Butler.

Thibs has made Mitch into one of the best offensive rebounders in the league. IQ is considered a top 6th man in the league. Randle goes from not being signed by 2 different teams (they literally let him walk for free) and turns into all NBA when he got to Thibs. Brunson has made an incredible jump. Derrick Rose loves him. I will hang my ass out there and project that iHart is going to break out next year under Thibs, same with Grimes.

Guys that like to work hard and get pushed to new levels love Thibs. Guys that don't like to practice a lot don't want to be on a Thibs team? They can go kick rocks.

You work hard, and Thibs give you a chance but you gotta put in the work and effort. What kind of player wouldn't want that type of opportunity?

Cam, he didn't like it. Cam is going to work on his next min contract soon.

I've defended Thibs, but I've always said that I'm hopeful the time comes when the roster talent eventually outgrows him. I believe Thibs is a good coach with limitations. He is in the Nick Nurse, Dwayne Casey, Ty Lue, Frank Vogel tier. He might be a little better or worse than those guys, but it's close. Could any of those guys have gotten as much out of this roster as Thibs? Maybe, but it's not a given. I'm not convinced his offensive schemes are sophisticated enough to win a title, but we'll never know for sure until we see him with a talented enough roster.

Absolutely true.

Also true: Thibs took a team with Mitch who can't do anything offensive beside dunk the ball, RJ who can't shoot and Randle who is up and down and likes to ISO and accidentally turned them into one of the highest offensive efficient teams EVER.

He figured something out. It was not sustainable in playoffs against a very good Miami team that is playing bonkers but was good enough against a very well regarded defensive team in the Cavs.

Every single coach out there absolutely needs talent to get anywhere.

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:Other than that, I can't shake the Athletic article about Thibs being the coach that players least want to play for. That's gotta change.

For me, it's literally funny to read that. You know what type of guy would definitely love to play for Thibs? Jimmy ****ing Butler.

Thibs has made Mitch into one of the best offensive rebounders in the league. IQ is considered a top 6th man in the league. Randle goes from not being signed by 2 different teams (they literally let him walk for free) and turns into all NBA when he got to Thibs. Brunson has made an incredible jump. Derrick Rose loves him. I will hang my ass out there and project that iHart is going to break out next year under Thibs, same with Grimes.

Guys that like to work hard and get pushed to new levels love Thibs. Guys that don't like to practice a lot don't want to be on a Thibs team? They can go kick rocks.

You work hard, and Thibs give you a chance but you gotta put in the work and effort. What kind of player wouldn't want that type of opportunity?

Cam, he didn't like it. Cam is going to work on his next min contract soon.

The article explores this concept no? If you are in his circle of trust, you are gonna get big minutes. Randle should love Thibs. Others who know they can be a Thibs guys will also. But if you fall outside that circle of trust, you may not get your next contract. Its feast or famine. And that's polarizing.

We can say that players that are worried about playing for Thibs aren't the kind of players we want anyway. Honestly, that might just be the right answer. But why do most players want to play for Pop most of all?

I don't mean this as an outright condemnation of Thibs. I do think the image needs to change.

I am not sure what article you are referring to and may have missed it.

Could you help me understand what players that have fallen out of Thibs circle of trust that have been worth it? I am thinking Cam and who else did I miss?

Article here.
https://theathletic.com/4421645/2023/04/18/nba-players-poll/

The second is near impossible for me to answer. First, I was paraphrasing the article. Second, once you fall out of Thibs favor, it might be hard to regain footing so the characteristic of players that performed better after leaving Thibs has a small sample set. Kris Dunn comes across as a guy that might have been, but its speculation. Andrew Wiggins probably fits that category, but he could just be a late bloomer. Austin Rivers is getting pretty solid minutes in Denver after getting cold shouldered here. Fournier probably has a role on a team as an instant offense guy. I think the answer is that its going to be those guys in the middle. Those on the cusp of taking the next step that may not make it under Thibs. I look at a guy like OG Anunoby and wonder if he would subject himself to the risk of being isolated by Thibs? Or would be get 47 minutes a game and consecutive DPOYs here? I don't know. And nobody else does either. I think that's the issue.

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

martin wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:Other than that, I can't shake the Athletic article about Thibs being the coach that players least want to play for. That's gotta change.

For me, it's literally funny to read that. You know what type of guy would definitely love to play for Thibs? Jimmy ****ing Butler.

Thibs has made Mitch into one of the best offensive rebounders in the league. IQ is considered a top 6th man in the league. Randle goes from not being signed by 2 different teams (they literally let him walk for free) and turns into all NBA when he got to Thibs. Brunson has made an incredible jump. Derrick Rose loves him. I will hang my ass out there and project that iHart is going to break out next year under Thibs, same with Grimes.

Guys that like to work hard and get pushed to new levels love Thibs. Guys that don't like to practice a lot don't want to be on a Thibs team? They can go kick rocks.

You work hard, and Thibs give you a chance but you gotta put in the work and effort. What kind of player wouldn't want that type of opportunity?

Cam, he didn't like it. Cam is going to work on his next min contract soon.

The article explores this concept no? If you are in his circle of trust, you are gonna get big minutes. Randle should love Thibs. Others who know they can be a Thibs guys will also. But if you fall outside that circle of trust, you may not get your next contract. Its feast or famine. And that's polarizing.

We can say that players that are worried about playing for Thibs aren't the kind of players we want anyway. Honestly, that might just be the right answer. But why do most players want to play for Pop most of all?

I don't mean this as an outright condemnation of Thibs. I do think the image needs to change.

I am not sure what article you are referring to and may have missed it.

Could you help me understand what players that have fallen out of Thibs circle of trust that have been worth it? I am thinking Cam and who else did I miss?

Article here.
https://theathletic.com/4421645/2023/04/18/nba-players-poll/

The second is near impossible for me to answer. First, I was paraphrasing the article. Second, once you fall out of Thibs favor, it might be hard to regain footing so the characteristic of players that performed better after leaving Thibs has a small sample set. Kris Dunn comes across as a guy that might have been, but its speculation. Andrew Wiggins probably fits that category, but he could just be a late bloomer. Austin Rivers is getting pretty solid minutes in Denver after getting cold shouldered here. Fournier probably has a role on a team as an instant offense guy. I think the answer is that its going to be those guys in the middle. Those on the cusp of taking the next step that may not make it under Thibs. I look at a guy like OG Anunoby and wonder if he would subject himself to the risk of being isolated by Thibs? Or would be get 47 minutes a game and consecutive DPOYs here? I don't know. And nobody else does either. I think that's the issue.

I don’t mean to be critical here but can you give some better examples?

Andrew Wiggins played 36&37mpg while he was with Thibs in Minny.

Austin Rivers played for Denver last year and they didn’t bother to keep him and played for Minny this year. He is a min salary scrub.

Chris Dunn is a minimum player scrub.

I don't know how to factually backstop an anonymous NBA poll for you with examples you accept. My attempt fell short. I think you are coaxing me to argue the wrong point though. And my failure to provide examples doesn't disprove the underlying point.

My point isn't that there are countless examples of players that Thibs didn't like that went on to be superstars. Its that a poll of players states that many players do not want to play for Thibs. And that opinion of the players is what matters. And it doesn't matter whether anonymous NBA players can factually backstop their opinions or not. The fact that they do not want to play for Thibs is the only point in question. All the poll is saying is that players don't want to play for him more than any other coach because they don't want to risk his ire and his persona as a stern taskmaster.

You can choose to believe it or not. I think the perception needs to change. Your point seems to be that those who wouldn't want to play for Thibs we wouldn't want anyway. That might be valid. But if a guy has the choice between playing for Thibs or anyone else, poll says they are going to anyone else.

Right or wrong, it has to make you think, no?