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Nalod
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11/15/2022  2:43 PM
Thibs is 84-83 in one short season that netted a 4th seed 10 games over .500. He way overachieved.
Thus, he under achieved last season with 37 wins.
If each season is 82 games, the "Fire Thibs" crowd is just 3 games over two regular seasons. Or, if that's not enough, we are 6-7 in season three.
13 games in, and freaking the phuch out to fire him a game under .500.
Yes, it might go lower.

it all boils down to expectations right? There is hope, there is reality. We all hope for success. Nobody on the U.K. really hopes they lose.
Who really thought they'd be vying for a top 8 seed? Who thought the talent level was significantly that good? Was it "Hope" or "I got this"?
Other than Isiah, I never wanted any our our guys fired. I understood the reasoning but I always root for my guys to succeed.
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Clean
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11/15/2022  2:51 PM
BigDaddyG
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11/15/2022  2:53 PM
Clean wrote:

Someone posted on Reddit that Hart's girl complained that the Knicks weren't using him right on her IG live.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
blkexec
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11/15/2022  3:13 PM
Clean wrote:

Hart came a little too late. He would've been the perfect center in Phil Jackson's triangle offense. Since JB can also play off guard, some might argue Hart should initiate the half court offense, which forces players to cut, move and look for back door plays.

Unfortunately for Hart, he stuck in a different triangle system. A triangle of ISO players, where theres nobody to pass it to and everybody just waiting their turn (usually this happens when Thibs offensive schemes don't work and players take matters into their own hands). Most players on this team would do very well in a different offense.

It's amazing how most players that come to NYC, their offense is decreased and they are under utilized. For those that escaped in time, they thrived. But if you stay too long, you might turn into damaged goods

Born in Brooklyn, Raised in Queens, Lives in Maryland. The future is bright, I'm a Knicks fan for life!
Clean
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11/15/2022  3:23 PM
blkexec wrote:
Clean wrote:

Hart came a little too late. He would've been the perfect center in Phil Jackson's triangle offense. Since JB can also play off guard, some might argue Hart should initiate the half court offense, which forces players to cut, move and look for back door plays.

Unfortunately for Hart, he stuck in a different triangle system. A triangle of ISO players, where theres nobody to pass it to and everybody just waiting their turn (usually this happens when Thibs offensive schemes don't work and players take matters into their own hands). Most players on this team would do very well in a different offense.

It's amazing how most players that come to NYC, their offense is decreased and they are under utilized. For those that escaped in time, they thrived. But if you stay too long, you might turn into damaged goods


The bold got a good laugh out of me.
martin
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11/15/2022  4:25 PM
Knicks ran offense thru Hart in the preseason and it didn't work (although it was stark to see it tried IMO), the flow of that second unit suffered. IQ especially didn't know what to do. So, back to basics until things flow.

2 years ago with Rose, the Knicks had one of the better offenses off the bench. It's gonna take time to get back to that and also adjust to what Hart does. Doesn't help that it got all messed up with the second unit now that Mitch is down and Hart started some.

Put ball in Hart's second unit hands and it takes the ball away from IQ/Rose, which is more their forte. You take the ball out of IQ's hands, and you take away some of his development as a combo guy who seemed to get it at end of last season and hasn't found it yet.

13 games in and Hart going in and out of starting unit and I'm not that concerned about the offense running through him or his 3pt shooting, it'll get there. Just not yet.

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blkexec
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11/15/2022  7:13 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/15/2022  7:15 PM
martin wrote:Knicks ran offense thru Hart in the preseason and it didn't work (although it was stark to see it tried IMO), the flow of that second unit suffered. IQ especially didn't know what to do. So, back to basics until things flow.

2 years ago with Rose, the Knicks had one of the better offenses off the bench. It's gonna take time to get back to that and also adjust to what Hart does. Doesn't help that it got all messed up with the second unit now that Mitch is down and Hart started some.

Put ball in Hart's second unit hands and it takes the ball away from IQ/Rose, which is more their forte. You take the ball out of IQ's hands, and you take away some of his development as a combo guy who seemed to get it at end of last season and hasn't found it yet.

13 games in and Hart going in and out of starting unit and I'm not that concerned about the offense running through him or his 3pt shooting, it'll get there. Just not yet.

Rose was motivated with his return and injury free. Also when you get older, each year is like a dog year. Everything ages quicker then rose felt the good and the bad the next year. But he’s not the problem to me.

I think knowing a players ability like Hart who’s a natural passer from the pivot, you put him in positions like thibs did with Noah in Chicago. The problem is Noah strength was defense and hart is offense. Again, they both have similar iq on offensive passing. Thibs should or probably has already. But this is on the FO. They should’ve reached out and grabbed more defensive shooters like turner from Indy who’s a better defender than hart. Turner is a thibs player.

But as long as the defense suffers with hart there’s not point in talking about his offense cause sims will get those mins. But if thibs or whoever is around uses him more on offense, he will be more impactful.

For some reason, I’m getting used to this drama with our coach every 2-3 years. It’s entertaining to see what’s next? Will thibs make it back home? Will the players step up for him or let him down? Or will the loses reveal a larger issue in the FO lack of alignment in providing their coach Thibs two way defensive players. This is why he loves Grimes and Cam with RJ 2way potential.

Born in Brooklyn, Raised in Queens, Lives in Maryland. The future is bright, I'm a Knicks fan for life!
BigDaddyG
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11/15/2022  7:22 PM
blkexec wrote:
martin wrote:Knicks ran offense thru Hart in the preseason and it didn't work (although it was stark to see it tried IMO), the flow of that second unit suffered. IQ especially didn't know what to do. So, back to basics until things flow.

2 years ago with Rose, the Knicks had one of the better offenses off the bench. It's gonna take time to get back to that and also adjust to what Hart does. Doesn't help that it got all messed up with the second unit now that Mitch is down and Hart started some.

Put ball in Hart's second unit hands and it takes the ball away from IQ/Rose, which is more their forte. You take the ball out of IQ's hands, and you take away some of his development as a combo guy who seemed to get it at end of last season and hasn't found it yet.

13 games in and Hart going in and out of starting unit and I'm not that concerned about the offense running through him or his 3pt shooting, it'll get there. Just not yet.

Rose was motivated with his return and injury free. Also when you get older, each year is like a dog year. Everything ages quicker then rose felt the good and the bad the next year. But he’s not the problem to me.

I think knowing a players ability like Hart who’s a natural passer from the pivot, you put him in positions like thibs did with Noah in Chicago. The problem is Noah strength was defense and hart is offense. Again, they both have similar iq on offensive passing. Thibs should or probably has already. But this is on the FO. They should’ve reached out and grabbed more defensive shooters like turner from Indy who’s a better defender than hart. Turner is a thibs player.

But as long as the defense suffers with hart there’s not point in talking about his offense cause sims will get those mins. But if thibs or whoever is around uses him more on offense, he will be more impactful.

For some reason, I’m getting used to this drama with our coach every 2-3 years. It’s entertaining to see what’s next? Will thibs make it back home? Will the players step up for him or let him down? Or will the loses reveal a larger issue in the FO lack of alignment in providing their coach Thibs two way defensive players. This is why he loves Grimes and Cam with RJ 2way potential.


Two seasons ago during the playoff season, the defense had the same flaws, it's just that opponents weren't hitting their threes against the Knicks for some reason. Yes, the team can use more two-way players. But the flaw exists in the defensive scheme itself. Also, they need Mitch, who's always out due to fouls, injuries or whatever.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Kemet
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11/15/2022  7:29 PM
Clean wrote:
blkexec wrote:
Clean wrote:

Hart came a little too late. He would've been the perfect center in Phil Jackson's triangle offense. Since JB can also play off guard, some might argue Hart should initiate the half court offense, which forces players to cut, move and look for back door plays.

Unfortunately for Hart, he stuck in a different triangle system. A triangle of ISO players, where theres nobody to pass it to and everybody just waiting their turn (usually this happens when Thibs offensive schemes don't work and players take matters into their own hands). Most players on this team would do very well in a different offense.

It's amazing how most players that come to NYC, their offense is decreased and they are under utilized. For those that escaped in time, they thrived. But if you stay too long, you might turn into damaged goods


The bold got a good laugh out of me.


The Knicks adding 3 to 4 new players (Brunson, Hart, Cam, Griffin) into the Knicks 2022-23 rotation ..
I ASSUME coach Thibs were gonna start the regular season games off by playing a starter lineup, and a 2nd unit bench lineup rotation to build a 10 man chemistry throughout the Knicks first 20 games of the season.
To also make the roster happy!
By having the last 2 season dynamic trio bench players that co-exist well on the court in D.Rose, Quickley, and Obi Toppin to be the starters of the 2nd and 4th quarter each game alongside Cam & Hart
Why break-up a trio of players that play so well on offense/defense in a lineup together, plus the bench trio get better when played night after night.

The only coach/player that has been playing each Knicks player to their best strength has been veteran star D.Rose .... The player Tom Thibs put in the Doghouse at the start of the season.

The performance of the Knicks 3 most minute played players this season are why Thibs need to be FIRED asap.
And if the weak top assistant coach can't do better by the midseason games, then hire one of the many unemployed NBA head coaches
blkexec
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11/15/2022  7:50 PM
Kemet wrote:
Clean wrote:
blkexec wrote:
Clean wrote:

Hart came a little too late. He would've been the perfect center in Phil Jackson's triangle offense. Since JB can also play off guard, some might argue Hart should initiate the half court offense, which forces players to cut, move and look for back door plays.

Unfortunately for Hart, he stuck in a different triangle system. A triangle of ISO players, where theres nobody to pass it to and everybody just waiting their turn (usually this happens when Thibs offensive schemes don't work and players take matters into their own hands). Most players on this team would do very well in a different offense.

It's amazing how most players that come to NYC, their offense is decreased and they are under utilized. For those that escaped in time, they thrived. But if you stay too long, you might turn into damaged goods


The bold got a good laugh out of me.


The Knicks adding 3 to 4 new players (Brunson, Hart, Cam, Griffin) into the Knicks 2022-23 rotation ..
I ASSUME coach Thibs were gonna start the regular season games off by playing a starter lineup, and a 2nd unit bench lineup rotation to build a 10 man chemistry throughout the Knicks first 20 games of the season.
To also make the roster happy!
By having the last 2 season dynamic trio bench players that co-exist well on the court in D.Rose, Quickley, and Obi Toppin to be the starters of the 2nd and 4th quarter each game alongside Cam & Hart
Why break-up a trio of players that play so well on offense/defense in a lineup together, plus the bench trio get better when played night after night.

The only coach/player that has been playing each Knicks player to their best strength has been veteran star D.Rose .... The player Tom Thibs put in the Doghouse at the start of the season.

The performance of the Knicks 3 most minute played players this season are why Thibs need to be FIRED asap.
And if the weak top assistant coach can't do better by the midseason games, then hire one of the many unemployed NBA head coaches

To me, the issue is Thibs inability to hold Randle accountable. I’m wondering if this is related to this “whisperer” he has to calm his nerves. Is thibs being told to play the pamper him game? I thought thibs was a cloth from Pat Riley and van gundy? That’s the main reason I didn’t mind the hire.

One of them has to go. I think both would win if they split.

Randle owns Thibs

Born in Brooklyn, Raised in Queens, Lives in Maryland. The future is bright, I'm a Knicks fan for life!
BigDaddyG
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11/15/2022  7:56 PM
Kemet wrote:
Clean wrote:
blkexec wrote:
Clean wrote:

Hart came a little too late. He would've been the perfect center in Phil Jackson's triangle offense. Since JB can also play off guard, some might argue Hart should initiate the half court offense, which forces players to cut, move and look for back door plays.

Unfortunately for Hart, he stuck in a different triangle system. A triangle of ISO players, where theres nobody to pass it to and everybody just waiting their turn (usually this happens when Thibs offensive schemes don't work and players take matters into their own hands). Most players on this team would do very well in a different offense.

It's amazing how most players that come to NYC, their offense is decreased and they are under utilized. For those that escaped in time, they thrived. But if you stay too long, you might turn into damaged goods


The bold got a good laugh out of me.


The Knicks adding 3 to 4 new players (Brunson, Hart, Cam, Griffin) into the Knicks 2022-23 rotation ..
I ASSUME coach Thibs were gonna start the regular season games off by playing a starter lineup, and a 2nd unit bench lineup rotation to build a 10 man chemistry throughout the Knicks first 20 games of the season.
To also make the roster happy!
By having the last 2 season dynamic trio bench players that co-exist well on the court in D.Rose, Quickley, and Obi Toppin to be the starters of the 2nd and 4th quarter each game alongside Cam & Hart
Why break-up a trio of players that play so well on offense/defense in a lineup together, plus the bench trio get better when played night after night.

The only coach/player that has been playing each Knicks player to their best strength has been veteran star D.Rose .... The player Tom Thibs put in the Doghouse at the start of the season.

The performance of the Knicks 3 most minute played players this season are why Thibs need to be FIRED asap.
And if the weak top assistant coach can't do better by the midseason games, then hire one of the many unemployed NBA head coaches

Kemet's energy right now:

I think it's still to early to fire Thibs, but I'm becoming so apathetic that I don't think I'd care if they did. Good thing I got me some of the Wembeyama highlights to get me through. The season officially starts after we enter the Wembathon!

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Philc1
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11/15/2022  10:44 PM
You fire Thibs and Isiah officially becomes shadow GM again
joec32033
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11/16/2022  12:27 AM
wargames wrote:
TheGame wrote:
joec32033 wrote:I like Thibs and I am currenty taking into account this hot seat talk is being reported by the media (and maybe even media driven) so I take it with a grain of salt, but behind closed doors, if I was a GM, my belief-and it requires some forward thinking-is if a bad stretch at any point in the first half of a season is enough for you to consider firing your coach, your coach should be fired before that season begins. Talking about a lost season 13 games into a season, should cost not only the coach, but the GM their job.

I agree. You cannot fire Thibbs at this point in the season. However, this is his third year and the team has not progressed much. If we don’t at least make the play-in game, then I think Thibbs has to be fired, especially if a solid coaching candidate is available.

They can fire thibs right now. He should be on the hot seat since last year's and teams have figured his defense out.

You fire him now, you are not getting a long term replacement. All those guys walked to different jobs. You are selling the season. You are naming an interim coach hoping to catch lightening in a bottle from some assistant on your team. The real hire is after the season. Then you are starting all over with a different philosophy, probably alot of different players and then going into year one all over again.

This is not to mention that if Leon Rose couldn't get Tom Thibodeau to work, how is he going to get anyone else to work? Leon and Tom are supposed to be like conjoined twins. This team FO was structured by it's relationships. It's not like Rose is a vet GM. He is a newer GM who was supposed to be in total 100% perfect harmony lockstep with his coach and it hasn't panned out. I personally have doubts if he cant make it work with the person he knows best how is he going to make it work with anyone else? He is probably gone after his contract is up with this team showing no REAL marked improvement.

This is potentially Thibs last ride here this season. The only thing I want to see is continued long term growth from this team. If the front office is on the hot seat, there should be no taking on albatross contracts, no trading draft picks, no trading young players. You want to rearrange the deck chairs or set up for continuous growth using players that have issues that are not coach them out of (Randle-overall game, Mitch-injuries, Fournier, Rose) fine. But all anyone 23 and under and all draft picks are off limits until the next leadership comes in.

The only flip side is if ownership decideds to double down and say Thibs is staying and this is the culture we want to develop. Something can be said for keeping a coach longer than 3 years, especially with some of the turnover this team has experienced.

~You can't run from who you are.~
Nalod
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11/16/2022  3:40 AM
Culture of over coming adversity or firing with no clear path other than change which is not always improvement.
Thats a normal fan reaction. Not just a Knicks fan.
Funny, we win last night with tight rotation of just 9 players. Very “Thibian”.
Back to .500 for now. Not good enough to have fun in playoffs, and not bad enough for lottery. Uh oh.
martin
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11/16/2022  7:04 PM
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Marv
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11/16/2022  8:24 PM
martin wrote:

or maybe there’s an overreaction to last night’s win
martin
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11/16/2022  8:25 PM
Marv wrote:
martin wrote:

or maybe there’s an overreaction to last night’s win

We extending Thibs if we win tonight, count on it

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Marv
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11/16/2022  8:27 PM
KnickDanger
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11/17/2022  12:47 AM
martin wrote:
Marv wrote:
martin wrote:

or maybe there’s an overreaction to last night’s win

We extending Thibs if we win tonight, count on it


I’m good with that.
blkexec
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11/17/2022  9:42 AM
I think Thibs 9 man rotation is a HUGE shift. And there's advantages vs a 10 man rotation. When it's 10, I believe (based on the past) Thibs is more rigid. Starting 5 bring in 5.

When it's a 9 man rotation, Thibs appears to mix things up. I call it organized confusion.

RJ with the second unit
JB and IQ together
Reddish playing with the second unit
Obi and Randle playing together

What I like and don't like about Thibs is his stubbornness. This applies to out losing streaks or in game flexibility.

But when things are going well, his stubbornness becomes an advantage. I can see him basically riding this same rotation and substitution pattern for a while now. Trying to see how many wins we can squeeze out during this west coast trip, before making any significant changes.

Born in Brooklyn, Raised in Queens, Lives in Maryland. The future is bright, I'm a Knicks fan for life!
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