If you look around the league , even the Expansion Bobcats have and promising frontline even intimidating at times with blocks than we do. Bigs are hard to come by, pg are not. As I look around the league and see the guys(pg's) who are making their respective teams better and are still young. McCleod in Utah dude was running the team like he has been the starter for yrs since arroyo been out and I think he was a 2nd rd guy or undrafted. Rafer Alston(skip to my lou) another home town pg who wouldn't have cost so much signed with the Raptors and is getting it done as a starter there. Maurice Williams 2nd rd pick who also played for Utah, but now for the bucks has started since Mike James has been out had a 8.8 assist a game(great floor leader). My point is there will always be pg under the radar in the NBA who make it big when given the chance to play elsewhere, But big men in the NBA are hard to find.

Yes, that is obvious.

Posted by fishmike:

then why did we have Charlie Ward and Howard Eisley for 3 years? Or a 37 year old MArk Jackson? Or Chris Childs? Or anyone above utterly average since we had Derek Harper at the end of his career?

I guess our radar was higher than everyone else's

That was Vandummy's standard as coach for the knicks for a pg. Jeff always wanted someone he could control and who didn't have that (takeover)Athletic game at the pg position and we never got a way from that mentality. Isn't this why he has Charlie Ward starting for him at the pg in the western conf LOL. Back up is Tyronne Lue some one else he can control. We unfortunately never gotten over jeff handprint after we let go of Grunfeld as GM.

Posted by fishmike:

really? than what was Pat Riley's excuse?

Also, last I checked Ward is his PG because Steve Francis went in a trade for Tracy McGrady, not because VG told management to go get me Charlie Ward.

Fishy you know Francis and Gundy wouldn't last that long in Houston. Gundy couldn't control him at the pg position.

Riley didn't have the throughbreds he had in LA so he had to play ruff house with Mase and Xman etc.. no with a dynamic pg.

No jeff didn't say go get me ward, he actually told them let me pick the pg starter which is gonna be Bob Sura when he gets off the IR.

Sura put up career #'s in Atlanta last yr and Gundy will have the ability to control him too.

Posted by martin:

Posted by playa2:

Posted by fishmike:

then why did we have Charlie Ward and Howard Eisley for 3 years? Or a 37 year old MArk Jackson? Or Chris Childs? Or anyone above utterly average since we had Derek Harper at the end of his career?

I guess our radar was higher than everyone else's

That was Vandummy's standard as coach for the knicks for a pg. Jeff always wanted someone he could control and who didn't have that (takeover)Athletic game at the pg position and we never got a way from that mentality. Isn't this why he has Charlie Ward starting for him at the pg in the western conf LOL. Back up is Tyronne Lue some one else he can control. We unfortunately never gotten over jeff handprint after we let go of Grunfeld as GM.

are you trying to convince us that JVG want an unathletic PG? No. He want s PG that understands the half court game. He wants a PG who knows how to feed the post. He wants a PG that can spread the D. He wants a PG that plays D.

Houston has Yao. They NEED to be a half court team for him to be successful.

No martin , what I am saying is jeff doesn't want a athletic creator at the pg position because of his defensive strategy. Running would wear his own team out so that running the ball up court could be detrimental to what he only knows= DEFENSE.

Understanding the half court game is needed especially in playoffs, but that is only half of the pro game and that is where jeff shows his limitations. Even Kenny Smith on TNT said Houston has to run some too with McGrady.

Feeding the post as a pg is much easier than running a fast break offense, all you have to do is dump the ball and run to a corner and wait for a kick out pass ala Charlie Ward.

[quote]
Posted by fishmike:

you never answered my point.. if PGs are easy to get under the radar why didnt Riley get one in his many years coaching the Knicks?

Patrick Ewing wanted to be the focal point of the offense and that's one of the reasons why we didn't go after young guards with creactivity, Running with Pat's bad knees wasn't going to happen back then. Wards temperment was a perfect fit for Pat's ego. Harper was on the down side of his career he fit perfectly under riley scheme(defensive pg)

Posted by fishmike:

Not wanted a creative PG? Are you high?

yeah, agreed. Playa, JVG would LOVE an athletic PG. Every coach would. But his first priority on offense is to feed Yao.

JVG never complained about S Fransis because of his lack of effort on the defensive end of things really, but rather the emphasis in trading him was his ball-hogging, not-use-a-dominant-center ways.

WOW.

Posted by jazz74:

this is ridiculous. so a player with marbury caliber skills are a plenty in the nba. come on. playa, you are right about needing a big but i think you are refering with the statement i said last year. i still think that the 1 position is the top two positions on the floor and stand by it. true, the games have changed and the day of the distributing point guards like stockton and johnson are diminishing, but ask the suns if a point guard is eseential. nash is a perfect example displaying why good point guards are essential. how were the phoenix suns when eisley and barbosa ran the point? now everybody is pointing to marbury and saying it is his fault and point guards are overrated. look, he is still trying to distribute the ball to people but they are not scoring. so he tries to do too much because he has to. i think marbury is the least of out problems and i am glad we have him.

Jazz you are all over the place. Guys like marbury don't come a dime a dozen anybody knows that, but ask Phoenix who they would rather have Nash or Marbury? The guy in Utah McCleod could probaly play in phoenix too same mold , how about Maurice Williams for the bucks 8.8 assist a game floor leader. Marbury isn't a problem while on our team , but who knows if a big was here instead of him. That's the only way we would know.

ok mike you are right. And to think most of us thought we fleeced Phoenix.