Papabear wrote:Papabear Says

Ainge always had a hate displeasure with the Knicks.(Boston vs Knicks) He used us he made a request that we just could not do and if we did it we could hardly make the playoffs. we offered him plenty. It was Cleveland all the time. If we offered him 3 unrestricted picks he still wanted to fleece out players. Lets be patient and remember the only way we get to the promised land will be if we grow our own. When it comes to deals we are the Black Sheep of the league.

Ainge will never perform a trade that appears as if the Knicks win. Full stop.The fact that DWade is part of that organization simply adds another voice to the anyone-but-the-knicks cohort.

But, true. that if the Knicks threw in a kitchen sink in a DM trade and allowed Ainge to fleece them a trade would have transpired.

DM was a nice-to-have player more than a need-to-have plyer for the Knicks. Not worth the kitchen sink deal and so Rose did the sensible thing - nothing heroic here and nothing to get upset about.

What is becoming obvious at the NBA league level is that the player transaction policies need to change. There is a shrinking value to paying front office staff big bucks for their expertise when positive change is wholly a function of Lady Luck.

The Knicks have cobbled together a very nice team of very nice role players. They have no upside future barring an improbable and unpredictable set of circumstances to shine their way. Winning is losing, losing is rational but the product is only co-incidentally related to what you need.

martin wrote:

fwk00 wrote:The Knicks have cobbled together a very nice team of very nice role players. They have no upside future barring an improbable and unpredictable set of circumstances to shine their way. Winning is losing, losing is rational but the product is only co-incidentally related to what you need.

The Knicks have no upside future? What?

They are stuck in NBA pergatory. This combination of role players or even an ideal combination of role players exist only to produce a mediocre record (exciting as that may look) that ensures they never sniff the finer air of being a legitimate, sustainable contending team.

You need gifted talent. A player or two on this team may break out but superstar talent usually isn't a development project, its as obvious as a UFO sighting.

So when I say, no future I'm simply pointing out that I'm not seeing a top ten player on the roster. Will these guys run around, pad some stats, perform wowza dunks, wave towels... sure.

MaddogSharp wrote:Well if we grossly overpaid then he would of had no problem trading him to the Knicks. I think Ainge thought that Rose would buckle under the pressure and give him whatever he wanted and more. We see how the media has unjustly bashed the Knicks for not giving into Ainge

Actually, with the dawn of fan-driven media, the MSM were pretty fair given their jobs are all on thin ice.

fwk00 wrote:

martin wrote:

fwk00 wrote:The Knicks have cobbled together a very nice team of very nice role players. They have no upside future barring an improbable and unpredictable set of circumstances to shine their way. Winning is losing, losing is rational but the product is only co-incidentally related to what you need.

The Knicks have no upside future? What?

They are stuck in NBA pergatory. This combination of role players or even an ideal combination of role players exist only to produce a mediocre record (exciting as that may look) that ensures they never sniff the finer air of being a legitimate, sustainable contending team.

You need gifted talent. A player or two on this team may break out but superstar talent usually isn't a development project, its as obvious as a UFO sighting.

So when I say, no future I'm simply pointing out that I'm not seeing a top ten player on the roster. Will these guys run around, pad some stats, perform wowza dunks, wave towels... sure.

I disagree on the role player concept but agree on the purgatory.

I think the Knicks youth need some more time to gel, but have some really good pieces.

Brunson reminds me of Mitchell without the wingspan and a better midrange game.
McBride reminds me of Marcus Smart, reigning DPOY
Barrett reminds me of Jaylen Brown
Randle reminds me of Dray Green of Dray was the only player on a team.
Mitch Robinson reminds me of Rudy Gobert
Quentin Grimes reminds me of Doug Christie
Jericho Sims reminds me of a better Jarrett Allen, if Jarrett Allen had the lateral movement to defend out past the 3point line
IQ seems like Lou Williams with a more complete defensive game.
Cam Reddish is like an Otto Porter that can put the ball on the floor.
Hart’s passing feels a little like Jokic.
Toppin is among my favorites as an Amare-lite.

Nobody is exactly these other players, they are an opportunity, an experience, and some confidence away. They may or may not make that step.

The fact that these guys aren’t stars in their first 3 years but have clearly been putting the work in. They are a player or a game plan away from putting it together. I can’t promise we get that player in the 2023 draft.

But I think if they get that last piece, everyone on the team looks better. If it clicks this year, they are only a few Net points away from the best.

Brunson/IQ
Fournier/Grimes
Barrett/Reddish
Randle/Toppin
Robinson/Hart

If they can improve from here, great.

wargames wrote:

OP might be right. Bucher also looks at the assets offered and has a point. The Knicks offers quality wise were all better than what Cleveland gave.

RJ was the best player offered in either the Knicks or Cavs packages.

Except Utah didn't want the best player. They want to lose for the next 4 seasons so they have a shot at Wembanyana this season and don't give up any of the lottery protected picks they owe the next 3 drafts afterwards. Sexton and Lauri will be easier to trade for additional draft assets in the future than RJ.

wargames wrote:

OP might be right. Bucher also looks at the assets offered and has a point. The Knicks offers quality wise were all better than what Cleveland gave.

RJ was the best player offered in either the Knicks or Cavs packages.

I already thought that our Deal was slightly better. When smackeddog dropped some facts about how they did not want some stuff from us but took it from the Cavs that solidified it that they just did not want to deal him to us. I was pissed about Lebron and KD not wanting to come here. Especially since we could have signed them without draining our assets.

Once I found out we were not getting Mitchell and saw what offer it would take to get him from the Jazz I was fine instantly. He is not worth that to us. We would not be contenders with him if we gave all that up and we would have no assets to improve further. So F Ainge and F the Jazz. Lets now use all the 2023 picks we have in a deep and loaded draft and hope a young all star falls to us. Oh yea and get Randle off my team please. He was the only player with a low level of hustle and bad body language/attitude. He could always change things this season but he was too much of a cancer and I don't trust cancers enough to not take them out.

EwingsGlass wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

martin wrote:

fwk00 wrote:The Knicks have cobbled together a very nice team of very nice role players. They have no upside future barring an improbable and unpredictable set of circumstances to shine their way. Winning is losing, losing is rational but the product is only co-incidentally related to what you need.

The Knicks have no upside future? What?

They are stuck in NBA pergatory. This combination of role players or even an ideal combination of role players exist only to produce a mediocre record (exciting as that may look) that ensures they never sniff the finer air of being a legitimate, sustainable contending team.

You need gifted talent. A player or two on this team may break out but superstar talent usually isn't a development project, its as obvious as a UFO sighting.

So when I say, no future I'm simply pointing out that I'm not seeing a top ten player on the roster. Will these guys run around, pad some stats, perform wowza dunks, wave towels... sure.

I disagree on the role player concept but agree on the purgatory.

I think the Knicks youth need some more time to gel, but have some really good pieces.

Brunson reminds me of Mitchell without the wingspan and a better midrange game.
McBride reminds me of Marcus Smart, reigning DPOY
Barrett reminds me of Jaylen Brown
Randle reminds me of Dray Green of Dray was the only player on a team.
Mitch Robinson reminds me of Rudy Gobert
Quentin Grimes reminds me of Doug Christie
Jericho Sims reminds me of a better Jarrett Allen, if Jarrett Allen had the lateral movement to defend out past the 3point line
IQ seems like Lou Williams with a more complete defensive game.
Cam Reddish is like an Otto Porter that can put the ball on the floor.
Hart’s passing feels a little like Jokic.
Toppin is among my favorites as an Amare-lite.

Nobody is exactly these other players, they are an opportunity, an experience, and some confidence away. They may or may not make that step.

The fact that these guys aren’t stars in their first 3 years but have clearly been putting the work in. They are a player or a game plan away from putting it together. I can’t promise we get that player in the 2023 draft.

But I think if they get that last piece, everyone on the team looks better. If it clicks this year, they are only a few Net points away from the best.

Brunson/IQ
Fournier/Grimes
Barrett/Reddish
Randle/Toppin
Robinson/Hart

If they can improve from here, great.

Thanks for posting. The idea that all of our young players are no better than role players irks the hell out of me. They aren't even men yet and they are logging hard core NBA minutes as kids playing against seasoned NBA men. They are in their early 20's with their best years ahead of them. They will get stronger and quicker and their ability to know how to exploit other players will grow. It's a scientific fact that men continue to produce an excess of testosterone until they reach the age of 29-30. The most athletic and the strongest most men will ever be is in their late 20's. Of course, players go on beyond those years and use experience to make up for decreasing athleticism. No where is that more evident than in pitching in MLB where experience on how to get hitters out trumps their ability to throw hard (think Chapman who is still relying on a fastball instead of the hitter's weakness).

Regardless - the Knicks are a young team that have just started reaching their potential. Hell, it seems IQ has been on the team for years and he just turned 23 years old. RJ just turned 22 and has only been old enough to legally drink a beer for a year. There is nowhere to go but up from here. Patience is required by a very vocal and impatient fan base, but dang - we're headed in the right direction as long as we don't do something stupid like trade these kids away and all our draft capital for a terrific player with no players around him and no draft capital to eventually put decent players around him

martin wrote:

fwk00 wrote:The Knicks have cobbled together a very nice team of very nice role players. They have no upside future barring an improbable and unpredictable set of circumstances to shine their way. Winning is losing, losing is rational but the product is only co-incidentally related to what you need.

The Knicks have no upside future? What?

How’s does anybody know what the Knicks have if we have a win now coach who tends to lean heavily on a few players and keeps a tight rotation.

If we have a young development team, we need a development coach.

With that said we are on Better shape than you think. Picks and youths are trade commodities. At any given time they can be turned into a disgruntled superstar. Unfortunately I don’t see one that’s available. Hence why knick fans and media are upset not getting DM, even at his high price. That’s how difficult it is to get someone on that level. The role players we would’ve given up are replaceable. Even Grimes who’s going to be a solid rotation player. DM is on another level.

I don’t think we have the right FO for these types of moves. Seems like mismatches all over the place. From coach to roster to FO and their conservative trade / off-season strategy.