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Does Gordon Hayward + ? for Randle/Cam make sense for both teams?
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martin
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7/6/2022  7:55 AM
This is the current roster depth for Knicks

Brunson Rose McBride
Grimes Fournier IQ
RJ Cam
Randle Obi Taj
Mitch iHart Sims

It's just too much 1-3 to satisfy those players, a lot of whom need minutes.

After trade:

Brunson Rose McBride
Grimes IQ
RJ Fournier
Obi Hayward Taj
Mitch iHart Sims

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BigDaddyG
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7/6/2022  8:03 AM
martin wrote:This is the current roster depth for Knicks

Brunson Rose McBride
Grimes Fournier IQ
RJ Cam
Randle Obi Taj
Mitch iHart Sims

It's just too much 1-3 to satisfy those players, a lot of whom need minutes.

After trade:

Brunson Rose McBride
Grimes IQ
RJ Fournier
Obi Hayward Taj
Mitch iHart Sims


Macri threw this out in his last podcast. I wouldn't mind another protected first rounder from the hornets to grease the wheels, but yeah, I'd be down for it.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
franco12
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7/6/2022  8:03 AM
I do not see us trading Randle yet. I think the FO likely wants to see if we can get a similar year of effectiveness as his prior year or close.

You don't trade guys you just signed that quickly (to big long term contracts.)
martin
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7/6/2022  8:33 AM
BigDaddyG wrote:
martin wrote:This is the current roster depth for Knicks

Brunson Rose McBride
Grimes Fournier IQ
RJ Cam
Randle Obi Taj
Mitch iHart Sims

It's just too much 1-3 to satisfy those players, a lot of whom need minutes.

After trade:

Brunson Rose McBride
Grimes IQ
RJ Fournier
Obi Hayward Taj
Mitch iHart Sims


Macri threw this out in his last podcast. I wouldn't mind another protected first rounder from the hornets to grease the wheels, but yeah, I'd be down for it.

I don't listen to their full podcasts but do catch the clips and he may have put the idea into my head quite frankly.

I've seen some of the trade and draft and salary cap stuff from Jeremy Cohen and the young fella is full on Nerd for Knicks but he is putting in good work and I like his thought process and attention to all the details

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foosballnick
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7/6/2022  10:23 AM
martin wrote:This is the current roster depth for Knicks

Brunson Rose McBride
Grimes Fournier IQ
RJ Cam
Randle Obi Taj
Mitch iHart Sims

It's just too much 1-3 to satisfy those players, a lot of whom need minutes.

After trade:

Brunson Rose McBride
Grimes IQ
RJ Fournier
Obi Hayward Taj
Mitch iHart Sims

That would be one weak defending 2nd unit at forward. Hayward is a sharpshooter - but just don't see him as a sustainable solution as a back-up PF.


For all the fans who want to jettison Randle ASAP how about:


- Exchange for a starting PF / change of Scenery move: Randle for John Collins straight up. Start Collins and change the minutes mix (Collins 28 mpg / Obi 20 mpg)

- Salary Dump for expiring - Randle & Cam for K. Love and Picks?

- Get a younger better shooting PF as back-up - Markkanen and flotsam for Randle & 2nd Rounders
Uptown
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7/6/2022  10:36 AM
martin wrote:This is the current roster depth for Knicks

Brunson Rose McBride
Grimes Fournier IQ
RJ Cam
Randle Obi Taj
Mitch iHart Sims

It's just too much 1-3 to satisfy those players, a lot of whom need minutes.

After trade:

Brunson Rose McBride
Grimes IQ
RJ Fournier
Obi Hayward Taj
Mitch iHart Sims

It makes sense both teams, especially Charlotte now that Bridges future is up in the air. I think Hayward starts at the 3, and RJ slides to the 2. Fournier might the next to get moved, maybe for a backup 4. Meanwhile, Cam can also back up Obi.

For those who haven't seen Hayward play in a while. he is more than a shooter. He can put the ball on the deck, and create for himself and others. Remember, there were talks of us signing Hayward as a free agent a couple of years ago so he has a fan in Thibs
GustavBahler
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7/6/2022  10:39 AM
I'd do that trade.
BigDaddyG
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7/6/2022  10:41 AM
foosballnick wrote:
martin wrote:This is the current roster depth for Knicks

Brunson Rose McBride
Grimes Fournier IQ
RJ Cam
Randle Obi Taj
Mitch iHart Sims

It's just too much 1-3 to satisfy those players, a lot of whom need minutes.

After trade:

Brunson Rose McBride
Grimes IQ
RJ Fournier
Obi Hayward Taj
Mitch iHart Sims

That would be one weak defending 2nd unit at forward. Hayward is a sharpshooter - but just don't see him as a sustainable solution as a back-up PF.


For all the fans who want to jettison Randle ASAP how about:


- Exchange for a starting PF / change of Scenery move: Randle for John Collins straight up. Start Collins and change the minutes mix (Collins 28 mpg / Obi 20 mpg)

- Salary Dump for expiring - Randle & Cam for K. Love and Picks?

- Get a younger better shooting PF as back-up - Markkanen and flotsam for Randle & 2nd Rounders

I disagree about Hayward. He survived starting at the 4 for Charlotte and he be going against second/third unit PFs. Also, my main thing is getting the cap number down. I have no expectation for the team making noise in the playoffs next season. I'm not interested in Collins at his salary and would rather give the time to Obi. The FO has to make a decision on him soon and they need to know what they have. Same goe for Lauri.
I would be down for a Love trade though.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
foosballnick
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7/6/2022  11:24 AM
BigDaddyG wrote:
foosballnick wrote:
martin wrote:This is the current roster depth for Knicks

Brunson Rose McBride
Grimes Fournier IQ
RJ Cam
Randle Obi Taj
Mitch iHart Sims

It's just too much 1-3 to satisfy those players, a lot of whom need minutes.

After trade:

Brunson Rose McBride
Grimes IQ
RJ Fournier
Obi Hayward Taj
Mitch iHart Sims

That would be one weak defending 2nd unit at forward. Hayward is a sharpshooter - but just don't see him as a sustainable solution as a back-up PF.


For all the fans who want to jettison Randle ASAP how about:


- Exchange for a starting PF / change of Scenery move: Randle for John Collins straight up. Start Collins and change the minutes mix (Collins 28 mpg / Obi 20 mpg)

- Salary Dump for expiring - Randle & Cam for K. Love and Picks?

- Get a younger better shooting PF as back-up - Markkanen and flotsam for Randle & 2nd Rounders

I disagree about Hayward. He survived starting at the 4 for Charlotte and he be going against second/third unit PFs. Also, my main thing is getting the cap number down. I have no expectation for the team making noise in the playoffs next season. I'm not interested in Collins at his salary and would rather give the time to Obi. The FO has to make a decision on him soon and they need to know what they have. Same goe for Lauri.
I would be down for a Love trade though.

I'm having a bit of trouble following the logic.

- Hayward kills the cap for 2 years - he makes ~$31M per year through 2023-24. He would essentially be playing out of position as a PF (6'7" with only a 6'8" wingspan) and would not seem to fit into Thib's defensive identity.

- Markkanen makes ~$17M for the same two seasons - his salary in 24/25 is non guaranteed.

- Collins is wrapped up through 25/26 season @ $26.5M - but is only 25 years old.

- Knicks fans are clamoring to jettison Fournier as a cap clogger who makes $19M for 2 more years.


If you're mainly worried about getting the cap number down over the next few years and don't care so much about the playoffs next season - then either Markkanen or Love would be better options over Hayward.
Nalod
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7/6/2022  11:25 AM

Not trading Haywood then having that salary off the bench. That is not logical, nor his he at the 4.
Not sure there is an simple trade with Charlotte but Randle does solve their MIles issue and if there is desire there is a way.
I don’t see Randle as a dump so I want reasonable value in return if.
fishmike
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7/6/2022  11:39 AM
no way.

Unpopular opinion but Randle is better and younger and worth much more to us fixed than dumped. There's warm and fuzzy emos with Obi and yucky ones with Randle and I get it. That will change in like 10 games if we 8-2 with Randle balling and Knicks playing D like they did 2 years ago. I think its more likely we see something like that than dont

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Vmart
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7/6/2022  11:46 AM
fishmike wrote:no way.

Unpopular opinion but Randle is better and younger and worth much more to us fixed than dumped. There's warm and fuzzy emos with Obi and yucky ones with Randle and I get it. That will change in like 10 games if we 8-2 with Randle balling and Knicks playing D like they did 2 years ago. I think its more likely we see something like that than dont

I agree with you. While I’m not a Randle fan when right he is pretty good. If you are going to trade Randle it’s got to be for a player that is up and coming or straight superstar. How about Randle/Cam and a number one protected for Bradley Beal.
joec32033
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7/6/2022  11:50 AM
The real deadline for a Randle trade is the trade deadline. Recoup some trade value, see if Obi was real at the end of the year and either commit to one of them by the deadline based on performance.
~You can't run from who you are.~
Chandler
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7/6/2022  11:57 AM
i agree with the posts that the FO is banking on an improved Randle

i don't see us chasing Hayward. He had the choice of being here and chose CHarlotte. We dodged a bullet. Guy can't stay on the court as it is and i think he's a bad fit for Thibs tendencies.

i suspect Randle will end up being a piece of a trade for some other star, e.g., Mitchell, accompanied with draft picks as needed

(5)(7)
martin
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7/6/2022  12:08 PM
joec32033 wrote:The real deadline for a Randle trade is the trade deadline. Recoup some trade value, see if Obi was real at the end of the year and either commit to one of them by the deadline based on performance.

Probably the plan the FO is going to take

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BigDaddyG
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7/6/2022  12:22 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/6/2022  12:24 PM
foosballnick wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
foosballnick wrote:
martin wrote:This is the current roster depth for Knicks

Brunson Rose McBride
Grimes Fournier IQ
RJ Cam
Randle Obi Taj
Mitch iHart Sims

It's just too much 1-3 to satisfy those players, a lot of whom need minutes.

After trade:

Brunson Rose McBride
Grimes IQ
RJ Fournier
Obi Hayward Taj
Mitch iHart Sims

That would be one weak defending 2nd unit at forward. Hayward is a sharpshooter - but just don't see him as a sustainable solution as a back-up PF.


For all the fans who want to jettison Randle ASAP how about:


- Exchange for a starting PF / change of Scenery move: Randle for John Collins straight up. Start Collins and change the minutes mix (Collins 28 mpg / Obi 20 mpg)

- Salary Dump for expiring - Randle & Cam for K. Love and Picks?

- Get a younger better shooting PF as back-up - Markkanen and flotsam for Randle & 2nd Rounders

I disagree about Hayward. He survived starting at the 4 for Charlotte and he be going against second/third unit PFs. Also, my main thing is getting the cap number down. I have no expectation for the team making noise in the playoffs next season. I'm not interested in Collins at his salary and would rather give the time to Obi. The FO has to make a decision on him soon and they need to know what they have. Same goe for Lauri.
I would be down for a Love trade though.

I'm having a bit of trouble following the logic.

- Hayward kills the cap for 2 years - he makes ~$31M per year through 2023-24. He would essentially be playing out of position as a PF (6'7" with only a 6'8" wingspan) and would not seem to fit into Thib's defensive identity.

- Markkanen makes ~$17M for the same two seasons - his salary in 24/25 is non guaranteed.

- Collins is wrapped up through 25/26 season @ $26.5M - but is only 25 years old.

- Knicks fans are clamoring to jettison Fournier as a cap clogger who makes $19M for 2 more years.


If you're mainly worried about getting the cap number down over the next few years and don't care so much about the playoffs next season - then either Markkanen or Love would be better options over Hayward.


You're right about the contract. For some reason I thought next season as his last. As for him being a four, he's done it already. He's not long but he's strong and makes his rotations. I think you might be overthinking it. You can easily make the case that Hayward is a better defender than Lauri. Collins also sucks on D and again, I'd rather use that time to see what the team has in Obi.
As for now, you can make the case that Lauri isn't a starter for most good teams. Useful player, but again, I'd rather see what the team has in Obi.
Not really in the Fournier is overpaid camp, but I'm down for moving him if the right deal comes along.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
jskinny35
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7/6/2022  12:43 PM
Every time I read about a possible Randle deal I start typing "of course" in response but this one is a little tough as Hayward makes a lot, is defensively not a PF and would likely come off the bench for us. Plus I really think we need to keep Cam until at least the trade deadline to see what he can offer. I feel like Cam is going to either end up as a Brandon Ingram level player or a Kevin Knox player in about 2 years. I was envisioning Cam playing small ball PF in certain lineups. I would do the deal for Lauri (Cavs) because he is youngish, talented and offers outside shooting from the 4/5 (and we could still mix in Obi in certain situations). Thibs would really have to earn his money to get Lauri to play consistent defense though...
smackeddog
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7/6/2022  12:57 PM
fishmike wrote:no way.

Unpopular opinion but Randle is better and younger and worth much more to us fixed than dumped. There's warm and fuzzy emos with Obi and yucky ones with Randle and I get it. That will change in like 10 games if we 8-2 with Randle balling and Knicks playing D like they did 2 years ago. I think its more likely we see something like that than dont

It's not about talent, for me it's about chemistry- RJ basically came out and cricked Randle for not seeming to want the young players to do well (remember that moment about the importance of celebrating team mates success). Then there's the sulking. He doesn't seem to like the fans or the press. Just seems like a cloud hanging over the franchise
BigDaddyG
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7/6/2022  1:01 PM
jskinny35 wrote:Every time I read about a possible Randle deal I start typing "of course" in response but this one is a little tough as Hayward makes a lot, is defensively not a PF and would likely come off the bench for us. Plus I really think we need to keep Cam until at least the trade deadline to see what he can offer. I feel like Cam is going to either end up as a Brandon Ingram level player or a Kevin Knox player in about 2 years. I was envisioning Cam playing small ball PF in certain lineups. I would do the deal for Lauri (Cavs) because he is youngish, talented and offers outside shooting from the 4/5 (and we could still mix in Obi in certain situations). Thibs would really have to earn his money to get Lauri to play consistent defense though...

An Obi/Lauri frontcourt is frightening. Hard pass. I'm kinda with you on Cam tho. But the reality is the team doesn't seem to feel the same way. If they're going to have him rust on the bench, I'd just assume they trade him now before his value drops to zero.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Knixkik
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7/6/2022  1:16 PM
I mentioned a Randle for Hayward straight up last week. I thought it might help spacing issues and Hayward can start at PF. Obi would still back him up but can see more minutes when Hayward slides to SF. But Brunson, Grimes, Barrett, Hayward, Mitch lineup gives really good spacing and should be strong enough defensively.
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