I think the Knicks did well considering the circumstance. My premise is based on the fact that Knicks realize they have a ****-ton of (not easily move) players up and down the lineup EXCEPT point guard spot and that they have a deep love for Brunson. Also, the Knicks don't think there is a player worth having in this draft outside of Ivey. If you thought the Knicks should have drafted YOUR fav player, you will not agree with this, but the Knicks did not have a fav player in the #11-15 slot or they would have just drafted that player. The Knicks (without Kemba) have 14 players under contract (Randle, Fournier, Rose, Noel, Burks, RJ, Obi, Cam, IQ, Grimes, Mitch, McBride, Sims)... no way they trade #11 for like 2 draft picks in the late teens or 20's - they getting out of draft and getting cap space and their PG.

The Knicks go hard after Ivey with SAC #4 pick pre draft; Kings owner wants Keegan Murray and there is just no getting around that and the fact that Knicks can't add enough. Detroit is the same but Knicks hammer away at them.... all the way until the #11 pick. IMHO I think the Knicks knew it was a super long shot to get Ivey but if they don't put in max effort and make news/noise about it, their fan base would KILL them. They do anyway but you gotta try.

Here is where I think the Knicks/Brock Aller did their homework pre draft (or the teams kinda told them): they figure out Detroit wants Duren; they figure out separately that OKC/CLE want Dieng. They know that CHA wants out of one of the #13/15 picks cause everyone knows that.

The key to all of this is the Knicks figure out that both OKC and CLE want Dieng and they use both teams as leverage while getting a little extra from either OKC/CLE. Namely, their #11 pick is going to be worth a lot more than the next pick that is up for sale #13 but the Knicks NEED to select Dieng at #11 to kick off a cascade of other moves otherwise OKC/CLE just fight over the #13 pick.

In the most simple world, the Knicks could have just selected Duren at #11 and traded him to Detroit with Kemba and gotten MLE 1st in 2025 (that's trade #3). NOPE, they want and got more down the line by working with and involving OKC/CHA/CLE and came away with 2 extra 1st round picks (WAS and DET protected picks).

Cleveland is key to all of this for the Knicks, otherwise OKC just trades for the #13 pick at a lower cost than the #11 (in a world where CLE doesn't want Dieng OKC would have just pitted Knicks/CHA against each other to buy the lower cost of the #11/13). It turned out that the #13 cost a late 2023 pick and a bunch of second round picks instead of #11 which costed 3 protected first round picks. You can definitely quibble over if 3 protected first round picks are better than 1 first round pick and 4 second round picks.

https://knicksfilmschool.substack.com/p/go-time

Before we get to the big topic of the week, one more word on the draft: Brian Windhorst confirmed on his podcast what many suspected, which is that the Knicks were heavily exploring trade-down options in the week leading up to the draft, going so far as to call teams below them in the first round and seeing what deals could be put together. Based on the pod, it sounds like they wound up being able to play the Thunder and Cavs off of each other, as both had eyes for Ousmane Dieng.

And this is why the trade details where not announced during draft, cause they came fast and furious over the next 15 minutes.

These are the trades that went down. Both OKC/CLE want Dieng, so the Knicks drafted him and let the bidding begin; OKC wins out. They also know Detroit wants Duren and that CHA wants to move out of either #13 or #15. They also figure out CHA mostly like wants 2023 draft picks cause they got none in that year.

Trade 1: Knicks-OKC

Knicks receive:
• 2023 Denver 1st (protected 1-14 until 2025)
• 2023 Detroit 1st (protected 1-18 until 2024, protected 1-13 in 2025, protected 1-11 in 2026, protected 1-9 in 2027)
• 2023 Washington 1st (protected 1-14 in 2023, protected 1-12 in 2024, protected 1-10 in 2025, protected 1-8 in 2026)

OKC receives:

• No. 11 pick (Dieng)

Trade #2: Knicks-Charlotte

Knicks receive:
• No. 13 pick (Jalen Duren)
Hornets receive:
• 2023 first round pick via Denver (protected 1-14 until 2025)
• 2023 second round pick via New York
• 2023 second round pick via Utah
• 2023 second round pick (most favorable pick between Dallas and Miami)
• 2024 second round pick via New York

Trade #3: Knicks-Pistons

Knicks receive:
• 2025 first-round pick via Milwaukee (protected 1-4)
Pistons receive:
• No. 13 pick (Jalen Duren)
• Kemba Walker

For me, the Knicks made out better cause they turned a bunch of useless late 2023 second round picks and 1 2024 second round pick (they already have 3 2023 first round picks and 1 high 2023 second and lots of 2024 second round picks) into 2 protected first round picks in later years. Most likely in 2024/2025 and in the latest 2026.

In the very least, the Knicks did their homework and maneuvered for better picks where they could have done none of that and just worked with Detroit.

As far as the long term plan, this gives them a path to brunson, or at worse, money for Tyus Jones. So the team should be better. But with the extra picks there’s always a chance for more. The hope would be good positioning for a future star trade. But that’s not the only option. Maybe the extra picks allows them to move up in next years draft for someone they do love. Or maybe there’s another move to be made this summer. Not sure if the cap gymnastics, but what about a trade for Ayton involving Noel, Fournier and picks (after moving Burks to free up space for Brunson)? Or Mitch sign and trade with reddish and one of those picks for Myles Turner? Or Fournier and picks for Brogdon and playing him at SG? Not saying these are smart or the right moves, but there’s avenues to get a lot better soon. Flexibility to do anything was accomplished during the draft.

BRIGGS wrote:They wouldve taken Johnny Davis Mathurin or Daniels at 11. 11 wasnt even the kemba dump. the Knicks simply did not want anyone else at 11

True. But they weren't there and Knicks probably didn't expect them to be. They needed Duren to fall also.

Knicks were only interested in a move up for Ivey.

martin wrote:IMHO Knicks had a 2-step plan: A) Get Ivey OR B) 2 Trade out of draft and move salary to go after Brunson.

I think the Knicks did well considering the circumstance. My premise is based on the fact that Knicks realize they have a ****-ton of (not easily move) players up and down the lineup EXCEPT point guard spot and that they have a deep love for Brunson. Also, the Knicks don't think there is a player worth having in this draft outside of Ivey. If you thought the Knicks should have drafted YOUR fav player, you will not agree with this, but the Knicks did not have a fav player in the #11-15 slot or they would have just drafted that player. The Knicks (without Kemba) have 14 players under contract (Randle, Fournier, Rose, Noel, Burks, RJ, Obi, Cam, IQ, Grimes, Mitch, McBride, Sims)... no way they trade #11 for like 2 draft picks in the late teens or 20's - they getting out of draft and getting cap space and their PG.

The Knicks go hard after Ivey with SAC #4 pick pre draft; Kings owner wants Keegan Murray and there is just no getting around that and the fact that Knicks can't add enough. Detroit is the same but Knicks hammer away at them.... all the way until the #11 pick. IMHO I think the Knicks knew it was a super long shot to get Ivey but if they don't put in max effort and make news/noise about it, their fan base would KILL them. They do anyway but you gotta try.

Here is where I think the Knicks/Brock Aller did their homework pre draft (or the teams kinda told them): they figure out Detroit wants Duren; they figure out separately that OKC/CLE want Dieng. They know that CHA wants out of one of the #13/15 picks cause everyone knows that.

The key to all of this is the Knicks figure out that both OKC and CLE want Dieng and they use both teams as leverage while getting a little extra from either OKC/CLE. Namely, their #11 pick is going to be worth a lot more than the next pick that is up for sale #13 but the Knicks NEED to select Dieng at #11 to kick off a cascade of other moves otherwise OKC/CLE just fight over the #13 pick.

In the most simple world, the Knicks could have just selected Duren at #11 and traded him to Detroit with Kemba and gotten MLE 1st in 2025 (that's trade #3). NOPE, they want and got more down the line by working with and involving OKC/CHA/CLE and came away with 2 extra 1st round picks (WAS and DET protected picks).

Cleveland is key to all of this for the Knicks, otherwise OKC just trades for the #13 pick at a lower cost than the #11 (in a world where CLE doesn't want Dieng OKC would have just pitted Knicks/CHA against each other to buy the lower cost of the #11/13). It turned out that the #13 cost a late 2023 pick and a bunch of second round picks instead of #11 which costed 3 protected first round picks. You can definitely quibble over if 3 protected first round picks are better than 1 first round pick and 4 second round picks.

https://knicksfilmschool.substack.com/p/go-time

Before we get to the big topic of the week, one more word on the draft: Brian Windhorst confirmed on his podcast what many suspected, which is that the Knicks were heavily exploring trade-down options in the week leading up to the draft, going so far as to call teams below them in the first round and seeing what deals could be put together. Based on the pod, it sounds like they wound up being able to play the Thunder and Cavs off of each other, as both had eyes for Ousmane Dieng.

And this is why the trade details where not announced during draft, cause they came fast and furious over the next 15 minutes.

These are the trades that went down. Both OKC/CLE want Dieng, so the Knicks drafted him and let the bidding begin; OKC wins out. They also know Detroit wants Duren and that CHA wants to move out of either #13 or #15. They also figure out CHA mostly like wants 2023 draft picks cause they got none in that year.

Trade 1: Knicks-OKC

Knicks receive:
• 2023 Denver 1st (protected 1-14 until 2025)
• 2023 Detroit 1st (protected 1-18 until 2024, protected 1-13 in 2025, protected 1-11 in 2026, protected 1-9 in 2027)
• 2023 Washington 1st (protected 1-14 in 2023, protected 1-12 in 2024, protected 1-10 in 2025, protected 1-8 in 2026)

OKC receives:

• No. 11 pick (Dieng)

Trade #2: Knicks-Charlotte

Knicks receive:
• No. 13 pick (Jalen Duren)
Hornets receive:
• 2023 first round pick via Denver (protected 1-14 until 2025)
• 2023 second round pick via New York
• 2023 second round pick via Utah
• 2023 second round pick (most favorable pick between Dallas and Miami)
• 2024 second round pick via New York

Trade #3: Knicks-Pistons

Knicks receive:
• 2025 first-round pick via Milwaukee (protected 1-4)
Pistons receive:
• No. 13 pick (Jalen Duren)
• Kemba Walker

For me, the Knicks made out better cause they turned a bunch of useless late 2023 second round picks and 1 2024 second round pick (they already have 3 2023 first round picks and 1 high 2023 second and lots of 2024 second round picks) into 2 protected first round picks in later years. Most likely in 2024/2025 and in the latest 2026.

In the very least, the Knicks did their homework and maneuvered for better picks where they could have done none of that and just worked with Detroit.

I appreciate the additional analysis on Ousman Dieng. I didn't realize there was a potential bidding war between OKC and CLE. Curious what the CLE deal would have looked like.

Jmpasq wrote:The only trade thats questionable is the 2nd one. It looks like we got fleeced. Why did we send out 4 2nd rounders?

For the Knicks, they were redundant. Their asset chest already has a TON of picks in 2023/24. The second rounders were late picks too.

Why do you think the Knicks got fleeced? What is the normal cost of a #13 pick?

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:SO many knick fans are damaged to the point that so many things are perceived negative before digested or considered.
Stephan A and spike make for good theatre and its easy to cry on draft night.
Do they deserve the benefit of the doubt? No, they have not earned that yet. Far from it. WE also think Leon as the Free agent master and CAA pimp that would have bought a cavalcade of stars by now.
Not sure there has been much to do but our asset gathering stage is an interesting rebuild of sorts.
"Fire Leon" is to assume "Hire someone to excite me". New FO, new coach is a cry for "New HOPE". At some point we'd return to the crossroads we at now. The hope is top 4 picks with bluechip players like RJ, but ones with more hype and flash.
Martin, I suggest your revisit in some manner RJ's last 20 games and the look in the mirror. Well, maybe you need not self examine yourself but the kid was doing some special things.

How about you and I BOTH look at RJ's numbers for his last 20 games and see what they tell us.

March/April, it's exactly 20 games: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/barrerj01/splits/2022

What does your look into the numbers and mirror tell you?

Next time link to a video of someone clubbing baby seals. This one was too depressing.

martin wrote:IMHO Knicks had a 2-step plan: A) Get Ivey OR B) 2 Trade out of draft and move salary to go after Brunson.

I think the Knicks did well considering the circumstance. My premise is based on the fact that Knicks realize they have a ****-ton of (not easily move) players up and down the lineup EXCEPT point guard spot and that they have a deep love for Brunson. Also, the Knicks don't think there is a player worth having in this draft outside of Ivey. If you thought the Knicks should have drafted YOUR fav player, you will not agree with this, but the Knicks did not have a fav player in the #11-15 slot or they would have just drafted that player. The Knicks (without Kemba) have 14 players under contract (Randle, Fournier, Rose, Noel, Burks, RJ, Obi, Cam, IQ, Grimes, Mitch, McBride, Sims)... no way they trade #11 for like 2 draft picks in the late teens or 20's - they getting out of draft and getting cap space and their PG.

The Knicks go hard after Ivey with SAC #4 pick pre draft; Kings owner wants Keegan Murray and there is just no getting around that and the fact that Knicks can't add enough. Detroit is the same but Knicks hammer away at them.... all the way until the #11 pick. IMHO I think the Knicks knew it was a super long shot to get Ivey but if they don't put in max effort and make news/noise about it, their fan base would KILL them. They do anyway but you gotta try.

Here is where I think the Knicks/Brock Aller did their homework pre draft (or the teams kinda told them): they figure out Detroit wants Duren; they figure out separately that OKC/CLE want Dieng. They know that CHA wants out of one of the #13/15 picks cause everyone knows that.

The key to all of this is the Knicks figure out that both OKC and CLE want Dieng and they use both teams as leverage while getting a little extra from either OKC/CLE. Namely, their #11 pick is going to be worth a lot more than the next pick that is up for sale #13 but the Knicks NEED to select Dieng at #11 to kick off a cascade of other moves otherwise OKC/CLE just fight over the #13 pick.

In the most simple world, the Knicks could have just selected Duren at #11 and traded him to Detroit with Kemba and gotten MLE 1st in 2025 (that's trade #3). NOPE, they want and got more down the line by working with and involving OKC/CHA/CLE and came away with 2 extra 1st round picks (WAS and DET protected picks).

Cleveland is key to all of this for the Knicks, otherwise OKC just trades for the #13 pick at a lower cost than the #11 (in a world where CLE doesn't want Dieng OKC would have just pitted Knicks/CHA against each other to buy the lower cost of the #11/13). It turned out that the #13 cost a late 2023 pick and a bunch of second round picks instead of #11 which costed 3 protected first round picks. You can definitely quibble over if 3 protected first round picks are better than 1 first round pick and 4 second round picks.

https://knicksfilmschool.substack.com/p/go-time

Before we get to the big topic of the week, one more word on the draft: Brian Windhorst confirmed on his podcast what many suspected, which is that the Knicks were heavily exploring trade-down options in the week leading up to the draft, going so far as to call teams below them in the first round and seeing what deals could be put together. Based on the pod, it sounds like they wound up being able to play the Thunder and Cavs off of each other, as both had eyes for Ousmane Dieng.

And this is why the trade details where not announced during draft, cause they came fast and furious over the next 15 minutes.

These are the trades that went down. Both OKC/CLE want Dieng, so the Knicks drafted him and let the bidding begin; OKC wins out. They also know Detroit wants Duren and that CHA wants to move out of either #13 or #15. They also figure out CHA mostly like wants 2023 draft picks cause they got none in that year.

Trade 1: Knicks-OKC

Knicks receive:
• 2023 Denver 1st (protected 1-14 until 2025)
• 2023 Detroit 1st (protected 1-18 until 2024, protected 1-13 in 2025, protected 1-11 in 2026, protected 1-9 in 2027)
• 2023 Washington 1st (protected 1-14 in 2023, protected 1-12 in 2024, protected 1-10 in 2025, protected 1-8 in 2026)

OKC receives:

• No. 11 pick (Dieng)

Trade #2: Knicks-Charlotte

Knicks receive:
• No. 13 pick (Jalen Duren)
Hornets receive:
• 2023 first round pick via Denver (protected 1-14 until 2025)
• 2023 second round pick via New York
• 2023 second round pick via Utah
• 2023 second round pick (most favorable pick between Dallas and Miami)
• 2024 second round pick via New York

Trade #3: Knicks-Pistons

Knicks receive:
• 2025 first-round pick via Milwaukee (protected 1-4)
Pistons receive:
• No. 13 pick (Jalen Duren)
• Kemba Walker

For me, the Knicks made out better cause they turned a bunch of useless late 2023 second round picks and 1 2024 second round pick (they already have 3 2023 first round picks and 1 high 2023 second and lots of 2024 second round picks) into 2 protected first round picks in later years. Most likely in 2024/2025 and in the latest 2026.

In the very least, the Knicks did their homework and maneuvered for better picks where they could have done none of that and just worked with Detroit.