We are 316 and 478 over the last ten years. Only the Magic, Kings and Pistons have a worse record that we do over the last 10 years. The Pistons were on the same path as us for a while, chasing big names and making even bigger mistakes. Troy Weaver came in, prioritized the draft and committed to a rebuild and now they may have a solid foundation of young players to build upon to sustain long-term winning. They will surpass us in a year or two and should be a perennial playoff team for years to come if the players pan out and I have no reason to believe they won’t. We are essentially the Kings of the east so I won’t touch them, and it looks like the Magic are finally building a proper foundation. Either way, with Banchero, Suggs, and Wagner, all on rookie contracts with loads of potential, they have way more valuable assets than we do.

Last year was a complete waste of a year and it looks like this is the summer of undoing, last year’s long hot summer of garbage that Leon Rose compiled. 1st round picks, especially lotto picks are the most valuable commodities in the league and we had to use one to help unload Kemba and will probably have to use others to off-load a few more contracts. Contracts that Rose Signed!!

Obi and IQ looked promising towards the end of the season, but after what Obi showed us last year, no way should he be entering year 3 and still getting 12-15 mins a night! We traded another 1st round pick last year for Cam, who didn’t get any playing time until we had a few injuries. Clearly, the front office and the coach were not on the same page with that trade, because if we were, Cam wouldn’t have been in a trade proposal a few weeks later that would have gotten us 35-year-old Goran Dragic. Why Dragic? Because we signed a win-now coach for a roster that wasn’t ready to win now. We hired him to instill culture, yet he along with the front office and Dolan allowed Randle to do everything in his power to destroy that so-called culture. And, he will be back next year, soaking the minutes Obi should be getting. Randle will be booed again and Obi’s name will be chanted and it will be the same circus we dealt with last year.

So, now Rose's plan is to open space to sign Brunson, his God-son? Brunson is a good player and I like him, but at 25 million, you would think we are getting a perennial all-star. He barely moves the needle and if you add him to this team as currently constructed, we are chasing a play-in spot.

Why are we in a rush to be mediocre? Rose picked up Thibs 5th-year option after his first year! Why? What’s the rush? Randle had another year on his contract, we had no reason to extend him. Yes, he had a very good season, but every time people bring this up, they conveniently forget that he was historically bad in the playoffs which should have raised dozens of red flags. And by extending Randle, now what was the point of drafting Obi when he is only getting 12-15 mins a night? Obi is my favorite player on this team, but with a win-now coach and Randle extended, what's the plan for him? We are going into year 3 and it looks like he will continue to get 12-15 minutes per. How the hell are we supposed to give him a fair evaluation?

Dolan is either too dumb, too ignorant, too stubborn to tear this thing down and build this thing, properly. And for those of you who say you can’t rebuild in NY. Why? Because we are going to lose too much?! News flash: we’ve been losing consistently for 2 decades without a legit plan to win on the back end. Why do we keep believing that things might get better the next year? Or with the next regime? Illusions!!!!

martin wrote:

Uptown wrote:title should be "Is Leon Rose officially on the clock?"

fixed, man one of the things I've been mean to add is for thread creators to be able to edit title within like 5 minutes of creating. Some day perhaps

Appreciate it....Had to get some things off my chest so there may be more than a few misspelled words

Bless us Knick fans....

gradyandrew wrote:Randle>Toppin

In a game of one on one. I agree. But in a team concept. Obi > Randle.

Randle had shown to be an inefficient, ball stopper that rarely passes to get the ball moving. instead usually passes if it will lead directly to an assist.

Obi injects energy into the offense. He is a ball mover, he moves off the ball which is a pg's best friend, he is efficient and creates off-sctiot easy baskets for the offense. As a former coach that preaches ball movement, team ball and putting pressure on the defense by constant movement and playing a full court brand of basketball, give me Obi over Randle all day every day.

gradyandrew wrote:Randle>Toppin

The issue a lot of people have with Randle is his ball stopping in half court on offense. It disrupts the flow because outside of randle this is a young team constructed to do full court press with guys like RJ and Obi

Uptown wrote:

franco12 wrote:Yes- I think Rose is officially on the clock - trading out of 11 when we need help brings risk. I get we've rolled the dice forward on some first rounders, so that is ok.

If we don't add Brunson or Mitchell, then Rose is on his last leg as far as I am concerned.

To me, the big question this year is: 'Is RJ a top 3 talent from his draft class, a player capable of keeping a franchise good and above average?' Or is he just a good, stat filler player? Can he will his team to win games? Can he be a leader? Can he make players next to him better?

To me, adding Brunson is about this, and about answering if Randle can be decent.

This year does seem to have car crash written all over it.

We can not max out RJ- we will be locked into mediocrity for the next 5 years.

The front office purposely or inadvertently moved away from Randle-ball the moment they added Fournier and especially Kemba, 2 players that need the ball to be effective. Randle never got the memo and thought he could pick up where left off last season and continued to play iso ball. I said it during the season, way before his blow ups with the fans, his teammates and refs that his style of play was a clunky fit with the rest of the roster.

Towards the end of the year when RJs usage increased, Randle couldn't or refused to accept a role of playing off the ball, consistently, and that cane to a head when we beat the Bulls and Randle tossed the ball across the court and stormed into the locker room. So, the question is. can and will Randle accept a role as the secondary ball handler and or third option being that RJ has emerged as the leader of the team? How effective will he be off the ball? It seems as though this front office had no intentions of moving Randle this off season and I think that is a mistake.

The way this front office is trying get off the contracts they signed last summer, and clearing the decks to bring in Brunson on a hefty contract, it will be a disaster if this team still fails capture, at the very least. a play in spot.

I want to reiterate, I'm a fan of Brunson's game and think he adds a lot to this team. My only concern is the reported salary demands. That said, the Knicks are probably looking at the play-in,even with Brunson.
Milwaukee, Boston, Sixers, Raptors, Chicago, Miami and Cleveland are still better. Who knows what happens with Atl and the Nets. Atl, on paper at least, is still more talented than the Knicks. Brooklyn...well eff 'em for the time being. My point is that the Knicks are still looking at the play-in at best, barring an unforseen injury to any of the other teams. Given the salary situation the team is looking at in the next couple of years, can you guys really get all that excited?

BigDaddyG wrote:

Uptown wrote:

franco12 wrote:Yes- I think Rose is officially on the clock - trading out of 11 when we need help brings risk. I get we've rolled the dice forward on some first rounders, so that is ok.

If we don't add Brunson or Mitchell, then Rose is on his last leg as far as I am concerned.

To me, the big question this year is: 'Is RJ a top 3 talent from his draft class, a player capable of keeping a franchise good and above average?' Or is he just a good, stat filler player? Can he will his team to win games? Can he be a leader? Can he make players next to him better?

To me, adding Brunson is about this, and about answering if Randle can be decent.

This year does seem to have car crash written all over it.

We can not max out RJ- we will be locked into mediocrity for the next 5 years.

The front office purposely or inadvertently moved away from Randle-ball the moment they added Fournier and especially Kemba, 2 players that need the ball to be effective. Randle never got the memo and thought he could pick up where left off last season and continued to play iso ball. I said it during the season, way before his blow ups with the fans, his teammates and refs that his style of play was a clunky fit with the rest of the roster.

Towards the end of the year when RJs usage increased, Randle couldn't or refused to accept a role of playing off the ball, consistently, and that cane to a head when we beat the Bulls and Randle tossed the ball across the court and stormed into the locker room. So, the question is. can and will Randle accept a role as the secondary ball handler and or third option being that RJ has emerged as the leader of the team? How effective will he be off the ball? It seems as though this front office had no intentions of moving Randle this off season and I think that is a mistake.

The way this front office is trying get off the contracts they signed last summer, and clearing the decks to bring in Brunson on a hefty contract, it will be a disaster if this team still fails capture, at the very least. a play in spot.

I want to reiterate, I'm a fan of Brunson's game and think he adds a lot to this team. My only concern is the reported salary demands. That said, the Knicks are probably looking at the play-in,even with Brunson.
Milwaukee, Boston, Sixers, Raptors, Chicago, Miami and Cleveland are still better. Who knows what happens with Atl and the Nets. Atl, on paper at least, is still more talented than the Knicks. Brooklyn...well eff 'em for the time being. My point is that the Knicks are still looking at the play-in at best, barring an unforseen injury to any of the other teams. Given the salary situation the team is looking at in the next couple of years, can you guys really get all that excited?

I would be excited about the play in if RJ looks like he can take his game up a notch- but if we are getting middling performance from him and Randle, then no - at that point, I will want them to blow it up a little, and try to find a new star.

BigDaddyG wrote:

Uptown wrote:

franco12 wrote:Yes- I think Rose is officially on the clock - trading out of 11 when we need help brings risk. I get we've rolled the dice forward on some first rounders, so that is ok.

If we don't add Brunson or Mitchell, then Rose is on his last leg as far as I am concerned.

To me, the big question this year is: 'Is RJ a top 3 talent from his draft class, a player capable of keeping a franchise good and above average?' Or is he just a good, stat filler player? Can he will his team to win games? Can he be a leader? Can he make players next to him better?

To me, adding Brunson is about this, and about answering if Randle can be decent.

This year does seem to have car crash written all over it.

We can not max out RJ- we will be locked into mediocrity for the next 5 years.

The front office purposely or inadvertently moved away from Randle-ball the moment they added Fournier and especially Kemba, 2 players that need the ball to be effective. Randle never got the memo and thought he could pick up where left off last season and continued to play iso ball. I said it during the season, way before his blow ups with the fans, his teammates and refs that his style of play was a clunky fit with the rest of the roster.

Towards the end of the year when RJs usage increased, Randle couldn't or refused to accept a role of playing off the ball, consistently, and that cane to a head when we beat the Bulls and Randle tossed the ball across the court and stormed into the locker room. So, the question is. can and will Randle accept a role as the secondary ball handler and or third option being that RJ has emerged as the leader of the team? How effective will he be off the ball? It seems as though this front office had no intentions of moving Randle this off season and I think that is a mistake.

The way this front office is trying get off the contracts they signed last summer, and clearing the decks to bring in Brunson on a hefty contract, it will be a disaster if this team still fails capture, at the very least. a play in spot.

I want to reiterate, I'm a fan of Brunson's game and think he adds a lot to this team. My only concern is the reported salary demands. That said, the Knicks are probably looking at the play-in,even with Brunson.
Milwaukee, Boston, Sixers, Raptors, Chicago, Miami and Cleveland are still better. Who knows what happens with Atl and the Nets. Atl, on paper at least, is still more talented than the Knicks. Brooklyn...well eff 'em for the time being. My point is that the Knicks are still looking at the play-in at best, barring an unforseen injury to any of the other teams. Given the salary situation the team is looking at in the next couple of years, can you guys really get all that excited?

I see it a bit different but my glasses are definitely rose tinted. Last year, the Knicks, without any real semblance of a PG or backup PG, with their starting C using the first 40-50 games of the season to just lose 20lbs and get in shape, AND with their 2 best players shooting god awful.... were 21-20 after half the season (easier portion of their schedule? for sure). And then ended up just 6 games out of the play-in game. Literally last year, for most of the season, everything went wrong.

Knicks won 37 games last year. 10 seed for playoffs were 43 wins. 8th seed was 44 wins. 6th seed was 46 wins.

It's those circumstances PLUS Brunson for which you think the Knicks will definitely not get an additional 7+ wins next year? It's possible but also as likely they get a bump of 10 wins IMHO.

2020-21 season definitely was a miracle season. No doubt. But there is no denying the type of impact Rose had on the team as a PG and I am hopeful Brunson has the same. I'm not expecting miracles - glasses ain't that rosey - but they gonna be in playoffs next year IMHO.

foosballnick wrote:Didn't the Knicks just tear it all down 4 years ago?

4 years ago, their intention wasn’t a rebuild, it was a onetime attempt to get the first pick (this aint the NFL, worse record does not automatically equal the first pick) and open up space to get a franchise player in KD. Obviously, we struck out on both.

We drafted RJ and found Mitch in the second round, both were getting minutes, Knox was playing, not as much as he should have but he was playing being that he was our top pick the year before. Then, we traded Morris for a first-round pick, which I thought was an excellent move. However, the owner and front office couldn’t stomach the losing, and the idea of an actual rebuild and they panicked. We fired Fizdale, and it was reported that Mills was trying to trade for D’Angelo Russell and his hefty contract which should have been a red flag for anyone who thought we were trying to rebuild.

Clearly, the intention was never to rebuild. Dolan accepted the idea of a lost season if the result was KD ad Kyrie. Once that didn’t happen, Dolan got rid of the CAA appointed Mills and decided to hire Mr. CAA himself, because surely, he can secure the big-name free agents or trade for them because they were/are his clients.

To double down on the idea that we are no longer or never were in the rebuilding business, Rose hires a win-now coach for a team that was not ready to win now. Clearing the deck for Brunson, and grabbing multiple highly protected first-round picks indicates that we are arming ourselves with more assets to hopefully make a run at future CAA and or former Kentucky free agents in a couple of years; Booker, Towns and or Mitchell.

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

Uptown wrote:

franco12 wrote:Yes- I think Rose is officially on the clock - trading out of 11 when we need help brings risk. I get we've rolled the dice forward on some first rounders, so that is ok.

If we don't add Brunson or Mitchell, then Rose is on his last leg as far as I am concerned.

To me, the big question this year is: 'Is RJ a top 3 talent from his draft class, a player capable of keeping a franchise good and above average?' Or is he just a good, stat filler player? Can he will his team to win games? Can he be a leader? Can he make players next to him better?

To me, adding Brunson is about this, and about answering if Randle can be decent.

This year does seem to have car crash written all over it.

We can not max out RJ- we will be locked into mediocrity for the next 5 years.

The front office purposely or inadvertently moved away from Randle-ball the moment they added Fournier and especially Kemba, 2 players that need the ball to be effective. Randle never got the memo and thought he could pick up where left off last season and continued to play iso ball. I said it during the season, way before his blow ups with the fans, his teammates and refs that his style of play was a clunky fit with the rest of the roster.

Towards the end of the year when RJs usage increased, Randle couldn't or refused to accept a role of playing off the ball, consistently, and that cane to a head when we beat the Bulls and Randle tossed the ball across the court and stormed into the locker room. So, the question is. can and will Randle accept a role as the secondary ball handler and or third option being that RJ has emerged as the leader of the team? How effective will he be off the ball? It seems as though this front office had no intentions of moving Randle this off season and I think that is a mistake.

The way this front office is trying get off the contracts they signed last summer, and clearing the decks to bring in Brunson on a hefty contract, it will be a disaster if this team still fails capture, at the very least. a play in spot.

I want to reiterate, I'm a fan of Brunson's game and think he adds a lot to this team. My only concern is the reported salary demands. That said, the Knicks are probably looking at the play-in,even with Brunson.
Milwaukee, Boston, Sixers, Raptors, Chicago, Miami and Cleveland are still better. Who knows what happens with Atl and the Nets. Atl, on paper at least, is still more talented than the Knicks. Brooklyn...well eff 'em for the time being. My point is that the Knicks are still looking at the play-in at best, barring an unforseen injury to any of the other teams. Given the salary situation the team is looking at in the next couple of years, can you guys really get all that excited?

I see it a bit different but my glasses are definitely rose tinted. Last year, the Knicks, without any real semblance of a PG or backup PG, with their starting C using the first 40-50 games of the season to just lose 20lbs and get in shape, AND with their 2 best players shooting god awful.... were 21-20 after half the season (easier portion of their schedule? for sure). And then ended up just 6 games out of the play-in game. Literally last year, for most of the season, everything went wrong.

Knicks won 37 games last year. 10 seed for playoffs were 43 wins. 8th seed was 44 wins. 6th seed was 46 wins.

It's those circumstances PLUS Brunson for which you think the Knicks will definitely not get an additional 7+ wins next year? It's possible but also as likely they get a bump of 10 wins IMHO.

2020-21 season definitely was a miracle season. No doubt. But there is no denying the type of impact Rose had on the team as a PG and I am hopeful Brunson has the same. I'm not expecting miracles - glasses ain't that rosey - but they gonna be in playoffs next year IMHO.

I agree that Brunson should add some wins, but I don't think it's a lock that we make the playoffs. Not saying that you are ignoring our competition, but its important to acknowledge that some of the teams that made the playoffs ahead were also dealing with adversity and still surpassed us and or are young and getting better.

Believe me when I tell you, the Hawks were almost as messy as we were and they still had a better season than we did. Nate's seat was hotter than Thibs, Collins was constantly on the trade block and was in and out of the lineup, as was Hunter, Bogs, etc. They will be just as good if not better next year.

The Cavs are young and ascending and were without Sexton and Rubio most of the year. Both should be back

The Bulls were missing Ball all season, and Caruso and Levine were also in and out of the line-up.

Regardless of how anyone feels about Jordan re-hiring Clifford, he is from the Van Gundy tree and coaches like Thibs. The Hornets will be much improved on the defensive end.

On paper, we should be improved, but it wont be easy.....