Posted by NYKDUNK:

It's sickening that anyone would prefer TT over KVH after what has transpired. This "clutch" play that TT brings really is overrated to me. If you don't perform in the first half, then the chances are you won't even get to show how good a "clutch" player you are!

No, actually I'd say what's sickening is that the trade went down about 9 months ago and this conversation is still going on.
Yes, I would prefer TT over KVH, the Milwaukee game afirmed that for me last season. If you honestly think this slump (or KVH's excellent play) is gonna go on forever, you're nuts.
If this arguement is going to continue, please, atleast let me start something when the roles are reversed.

I have no doubt that TT will eventually break out of his slump, but that isn't what's really bothering me, or many TT bashers. He can score all he wants, but unless he rebounds, plays defense, and plays with some genuine passion, it won't help us win games. That lack of passion he plays with has been present his entire career and I don't see that changing. KVH might lack at heart at times, but when he was here, that was never a problem. I've moved on personally, but that doesn't change the fact that we got the short end of this deal.

[Edited by - nykdunk on 11/15/2004 18:27:07]

OK, time for me to weigh in on this TT v KVH thing. I like it.

I liked KVH as a player. Just did, don’t know why. Maybe it was the socks or the style of his game – old school and all – but I did like what I saw. Infuriating sometimes, but likeable more often than not. In the same vein, I don’t like TT’s game. Every once in a while you see flashes, but most of the time – and I don’t know if it’s body language or what – he doesn’t go all out. But here is the rub: I liked the trade, and if I were in Isiah’s shoes, I would do the trade over and over and over again.

KVH has reached his potential. The ceiling is set and you know what to expect. He is a very skilled player and a very good 3rd option on a title contender. Not a second option, a third option; and the thing is, he needs the touches like the first option on offense. KVH is so-so on D, but he does rebound the ball well for a SF. TT also needs to get going on offense early or he is done. He does not like contact and is more of a perimeter player than a post player, so he does not draw the fouls. Zero D. Zero basketball IQ. LOTs of potential.

Let’s face it, Doleac was going to leave the Knicks after the end of last season for better pastures, plus his pick and roll role was a duplicate of Kurts, so it was on overload (and you don’t really want to take shots away from Kurt just to work in another player). Matched with a weak-side defender, Doleac was a perfect fit, just not with the Knicks.

So, in my mind KVH for TT is an even swap, with the kicker that TT may have had potential to break out of his shell in a new environment, and by this I mean a new team and consistently playing the SF position. Add in the potential of Nazr – a relative unknown – and you have a trade that has to be done. It’s an upgrade in talent plain and simple. Isiah had to do the trade.

i did like how the team was playing just before they made the trade though...i think it's fair to say that Van Horn & Marbury were clicking pretty well together & looked alot more fluid than Marbury & TT have ever been able to become up to this point...Nazr is a better player than Doleac imo, so the trade sort of evens out, but i still think Van Horn is a better player than TT, even w/o the slump he's in now...if TT ever lives up to his potential, the trade would be hugely in the Knicks' favor, but he obviously hasn't so far...whether he will or not remains to be seen, but i doubt he'll ever become much better than the peak he's reached so far in his NBA career...if Nazr can help us land a legitimate bigman someday, then the trade would have been well worth it in my eyes.

This topic is still alive, in part, because people requested a little time before judging this trade. Apparently some have reasonably decided that this trade was a bust because TT and Nazr haven't lived up to the "potential" and "key of the deal" labels. Others are still waiting to see what Nazr brings back in return since he has little value here as an offensively and defensively challenged big man. I guess you could put off judgement forever if Nazr doesn't bring enough in return, you can keep exrrapolating it to see if whatever we get for him turns into something somewhere down the line.

As for me, I thought this trade was garbage from the beginning and I still think it's garbage. TT has done nothing but embarrass himself and the Knicks organization. Nazr just keeps proving that he's nothing but a mediocre backup center who will never figure out what defense is.

Keith just doesnt play winning basketball. He's just cant perform under any presure. So far TT has been awfull this year, but he was very good down the stretch last year and his #'s reflect that.

Its hard to say how at trade with no impact can be called garbage, but then again Isiah did make it.

Since probably neither TT or KVH will be taking their respective teams to the next level its who is more valuable as an expiring contract.

At this point I dont really care. I'm pretty convinced we have our SF of the future right here already, he just needs some time. Let TT stay and let his money come off the books to make the Laydenized payroll start coming into a manageable area.

not really... Crawford is a reasonable deal. Heck, he's getting paid less then Eisley OR Shandon and he's 3 times the player. Mostly ISiah traded Layden's bad contracts for other bad contracts. The other thing is Isiah's bad contracts are the only way to improve the team. He didnt take JYD and Penny to because those were the guys he wanted to build around. He took on that payroll because those players had Marbury and Crawford attached to them.

Layden actually signed Eisley, Anderson, Houston, Sprewell and Spoon because those were the guys he wanted.

Its hard to knock Isiah for taking on payroll, unless you think he should have just rebuilt with draft picks, which isnt ridiculous.

let me get this straight... Isiah bought out Shandon JUST so he could sign Eddie? It had nothing to do with the fact that he was useless and a distraction and had no future on this team what so ever. If we sign Haislip than *thats* why we bought out Shandon then right?

Where Eisley and Spoon expiring contracts?

We certainly could have just let Ward, McDyess expire, and build through the draft. With Isiah's eye for talent I would certainly be more willing than I would have been with someone else, but your still 3 years from cap space thanks to Layden signing Houston and Shandon to those deals. Even with players like Houston, KVH and Spoon your still not bad enough to draft a Lebron or Okafor.

But if thats your preference its your choice. I'm not even saying its bad or cant work, just one I dont agree with.

only expiring deals were ward and dice. everybody else was under contract through this season at least.