martin wrote:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/BenRitholtzNBA/status/1481811483692523522

That will probably be his best and easiest role for the season, along with getting easy buckets on the break. I really think the Knicks would benefit from a fast break point guard. We have too many players who would benefit from that.

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Rookie wrote:

blkexec wrote:

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.si.com/nba/hawks/.amp/news/2019-20-player-review-cam-reddish

So this didn’t take long to find some footage of cam and how he was one of the bottom 5 nba players in the league his rookie year. Which is why he was traded for knox. Some of us get caught up in trades and are quick to give cam high expectations without evidence. This article supports my low expectations of cam right now but I still see great potential as a 3 and D player. I also believe we got cam at the right time where things are starting to click for him.

This for you rookie. Since my eye test isn’t enough for you. He’s clearly a low risk project. This is not a home room move but a solid trade that may have some long term benefits.

You watched some footage of Cam in his rookie year and you drew some conclusions about a trade of him that happened near 2 years later? What?

Ah yeah……if u read the article they do a good job of detailing cams development from his rookie year until now. That’s why I included the link remove any mid interpretations. The link spells it out. I really should’ve have said anything. The article says it all. My conclusions was based on my own eye test. The article fills in the holes from rookie to now.

The article is dated April 15, 2020. It does not detail his development from his rookie year until now. You are making that up. It is a puff piece about his rookie year on a losing team

You asked for more than a few college games. U didn’t like my knowledge. U didn’t like the authors knowledge. Sounds like your at a dead end buddy. Time to bark up another tree. If you expecting me to go through every single game of cam for his entire 3 year career, good luck with that. Got more things to worry about than the 10th player on a 9 man rotation.

The truth on where cam is and where he is projected to be will be revealed eventually. Give it time young man. Cam appears to be a nice 3 and D player. Knox was becoming a 3 and D player. How about we enjoy the new addition and be merry. If you want to call people you don’t know lazy, then have at it. But believe me, I might not watch every atl game or any atl game from beginning to end. But I definitely watch every knick game.

I have to tell you, I don't understand this type of response bolded above.

Your response to me mentioning that you took an article based on his rookie year while missing almost 2 more years of play was this: "Ah yeah……if u read the article they do a good job of detailing cams development from his rookie year until now."

The article clearly was not a review from his rookie year until now, cause it was written in Apr 2020. You made a mistake, one for which I tried to point out to you.

And now you are kind of falling back onto something else and kind of melting down quite frankly.

Rookie and I were just pointing out a glaring mistake you made.

If we were having a face to face discussion you would not say I’m melting down at all. But please continue to dissect my English all you want. It’s a free forum. I have no problems with that. Still doesn’t change my mind about cam reddish and the great potential he has. Also the negatives or concerns with his injury history. We’ve been down this road before Martin. This dissecting then name calling now back pedaling. Did I get traded to the Knicks or cam. I love the attention but it’s not about me.

The bold was an old discussion between rookie and myself. We moved on from that. Let’s talk about cam, that’s more interesting to me. Yes the article I posted was my response. My bad if it didn’t meet your standards or if it was incorrect. I’m human brother. Humans including myself are flawed.

I didn’t call anybody lazy? Didn’t call anybody out of their name. And rookie was man enough to apologize and I accepted his apology. It’s a shame that the history is still there and looks like a current discussion so I’m starting a new one. My issue was simply the name calling. Rookie issue was that he thought I never watch cam play an nba game and I’m passing judgement. Both issues have been resolved.

What I would like to see, since there’s so much attention on this thread…is cams defensive instincts. I believe that’s how cam will break thibs rotation. And that’s what I enjoy in players. Players with 2 way potential. This is also why I’ve been down on EF and sometimes Randle. I read about cams defense but highlights are always about offense.

blkexec wrote:To be honest with you Martin, I have no idea what point you are making about cam. If your point is the article is not a good choice of evidence? Ok I’m fine with that. And I can see your point.

None of my responses to you were about Cam the player. These are simple, direct sentences

Your response to me mentioning that you took an article based on his rookie year while missing almost 2 more years of play was this: "Ah yeah……if u read the article they do a good job of detailing cams development from his rookie year until now."

The article clearly was not a review from his rookie year until now, cause it was written in Apr 2020. You made a mistake, one for which I tried to point out to you.

Rookie and I were just pointing out a glaring mistake you made.

I disagree with this as well. That article was not a mistake for me. It simply filled in some holes for me. My entire assessment of cam is not based on this article. I posted this article after rookie called me lazy which is not my name and he knows nothing about me. But again we moved on from that.phone call brother is so much better. U are responding as I’m typing. So I’m not seeing your response until later.

martin wrote:

blkexec wrote:To be honest with you Martin, I have no idea what point you are making about cam. If your point is the article is not a good choice of evidence? Ok I’m fine with that. And I can see your point.

None of my responses to you were about Cam the player. These are simple, direct sentences

Your response to me mentioning that you took an article based on his rookie year while missing almost 2 more years of play was this: "Ah yeah……if u read the article they do a good job of detailing cams development from his rookie year until now."

The article clearly was not a review from his rookie year until now, cause it was written in Apr 2020. You made a mistake, one for which I tried to point out to you.

Rookie and I were just pointing out a glaring mistake you made.

Do I need to respond to this as well or are we straight now. Just in case. My assessment of cams 3 yrs in the league is not based on one article on his rookie year, even though he talked about the current year as well. I watched cam play in college, in the nba and even recently since I added him and dropped him on my fantasy team. Now you can pull up historical sentences all you want but please acknowledge my statements so that I know you now understand.

That response post with the article was out of frustration for the name calling. That’s it. Nothing more nothing less. It wasn’t meant for a bigger discussion and I should’ve text him directly to avoid all of this.

*Randy Moss in terms of gamebreaking rookie year: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMU4bwje89U

1. He is the NBA's Randy Moss. This year we seen the two most versatile 3pt shooters Tyler Herro and Cam Reddish since Steph Curry enter the draft. We are talking about shooters who can shoot 3 pointers with every variance. The standstill, stepback, hesi, iso 3, pull up, hard one dribble pull up, catch and shoot, clutch 3, combo move to 3pt. Cam has even more in his bag. Cam has the range to shoot consistently from 30ft and he has movement skills he learned in his role to be the 6'8 lol J.J. Redick and looked nowhere as good as Redick but looked as good as Jodie Meeks as an one prong movement specialist. The only skill they both lack of the ability to shoot 3 vs. high pressure defense. Both are bad at it for now. Herro does have a higher FT% but he shot 9.5 3pts in Miami and shot a solid 32%. What's crazy about this is, this is extremely translatable. Herro finished with his freshman year with a RARE 38.1% projected NBA 3pt without high end volume.

Redick at 21 with higher volume had a 40.4% http://www.tankathon.com/players/jj-redick

PG without the volume had a 38.4 http://www.tankathon.com/players/paul-george

Klay at 21 with higher volume , 38.8% http://www.tankathon.com/players/klay-thompson

Reddish before the groin injury with higher volume 39% https://web.archive.org/web/20190214192729/http://www.tankathon.com/players/cam-reddish

GOAT Curry at 21 with insane volume, 41.1% GOAT ****! http://www.tankathon.com/players/stephen-curry

What makes Herro and Reddish rare is they play in an era where shooting 3s isn't looked down upon. Steph took 4.8 a game as a rookie. Compare that to Luka's 19th best VORP in the NBA who shot 7.1 3 pointers a game. Trae shot 6 3 pointers a game. Note: It's hard af to shoot 6 threes in a game. Teams start scheming the f*** outta you. John was killing it on the Oboards and they started double blocking out him on the boards and it was kinda easy since Dedmon lived at the 3pt line. To get 7 or 8 requires extreme skill. Either you are elite movement specialist like J.J. Redick, Steph, Klay, Hield, Korver which no rookie is or ever will be outside of Curry, Redick could have been as well if they used him right but that's not how the game was played back then. You have an elite variance (Cam, Herro, Steph, Trae, Harden, Lillard, Gordon, D'Lo). This means both Herro and Reddish could make an impression similar to Trae and Luka as rookies but what makes you get to the RARE 9 and 10+ Harden/PG13 status. Elite offensive skill where you can't sit on his 3s for Harden and can guard his dibble drive or finishing due to his GOAT level offensive talent as he is an elite half court player who has the elite playmaking where you can't just double or zone him the entire time.

For PG, luck. How? Simple, it's extremely unlikely a player with is an average movement player regardless of how lights out a shooter can get 9.8 3s unless you get lucky and get a generational shot primary creator. How many are there in the history of the game? (70's - Pistol Pete, 90's - Stockton, 2000's - Nash, 2010s - LeBron, John Wall, CP3, Lowry, Now - Westbrook, Trae, Ben Simmons.) Chances are, if you got one of those, you will have more opportunity to get high quality looks that would not be there without one of them. The best shot in Basketball is the corner 3. No one but Trae Young as created more than Russell Westbrook (98). Paul George greatly benefited from this. I been on record saying Russell Westbrook makes players around him better but he makes teams worse because of his highly inefficient style of play for a primary ball handler. But he makes players around him better which gets us in the who's first on this list?

Trae Young (104). Who on our elite variance list is playing with Trae Young? You got it, Cam Reddish. Cam took a rare 7.4 3s for a off-ball player. How rare? Only Kyle Guy met these numbers who was exclusively a standstill, C&S shooter who can shoot with and without pressure. He is going to have to develop a movement game which I believe he can since we seen Joe Harris do it. UVA(Bennett) guys are instinctive and got the BBIQ but UVA just doesn't teach that so it's a skill they tend to lack initially. Klay didn't have it either at first and now he is the best in the world at it. Clemons and Edwards are the only NBA guys with more attempts with high end variance but neither of them project to be starters so it doesn't matter as Clemons lacks the size/passing/defense and Edwards lacks the athletic ability and the ability outside of shooting. Herro and Cam are both skilled isolation players which makes a massive difference and they have the athletic ability. This means, even as a rookie, if, big if Cam could possibly shoot between 8-10 3s per a game which a projected 39% when healthy, this could end up being 9.36 to 11.7 points a game. FFT, if Cam gets 6-8ppg from isolation, transition, FT which he is good drawing which is really good at, open dunks which is possible in our system. While I think 20ppg is out of the realm for Reddish with his style of play as a rookie, I do think 16-18ppg with a higher TS% than he had at Duke is extremely possible considering his skill-set, tool-kit, role, personnel, fit, and playing with Trae Young. Cam could end up with a rare 3 to 4 OBPM as a rookie. This mark would be extremely rare. His impact on our wins is could be just as impactful as a massive Trae Young improvement over the duration of next year.

2. "His FG% in college was historically low. Look at Malachi Richardson who is the only sub 40 FG% 1st rounder. If you can't finish v. teens, how can you finish v. pros? Richardson had a historically low 50.1% TS and Cam's is even lower Supes at 49.9% and Supes, his TS when he was healthy was 51.9%. The data don't look good Supes, it don't, he gonna flop bro!" Let me tell you something.

STAY OFF THE WEED and watch the film. Richardson had a low feel, low BBIQ, low IQ and was only a 1st rounder because SAC got no workouts with most guys in a historically weak draft. Papagiannis was a lotto pick. Why because him and Richardson worked out for them and shot well. Richardson was likely to not even get drafted. Let's just make it clear, we aren't dealing with a legit NBA prospect in Richardson, at least one that's a legit 1st rounder. As far as TS and FG. Name one 1st rounder with less easy two pointers in college than Cam Reddish in the last 20 years? Just one. Name one with more jumpshots than Cam Reddish? 79.8. Name one with more shot versatility than Cam Reddish? Just one? When Cam as easy twos, he easily scores but Duke was for R.J. and Zion and Cam/Jack/Tre to a degree and Goldwire had to play a specific role on offense and defense. The film is very damning on this. This is not to say Cam's finishing is great but Cam wasn't missing wide open layups. Cam was beating his man and had another person waiting for him. There was literally no space. Teams took Duke extremely serious as they should. They were the biggest NCAA team in the last 20 years in terms of popularity.

Cam may never have a very good or good TS but as long as his eFG is great and his adv analytics is great, idgaf!

3. "Cam only average 3.7 Rebounds a game bro. His rebounding was ass bro. Jimmer had 3.4. Come on man, are you kidding me?" Simple, look at this:

He sky over Zion for a board. This look like a 3.7 REBs guy? Let's break down why he got so few boards. Coach K usually has Cam get back on D so that Zion/R.J./Tre/Bolden get the DREB and wants him to spring out on offense so that Duke has numbers as R.J. likes to get a DREB and go coast to coast and needs numbers for spacing. This kills Cam's numbers. Just for reference, Cam rebounding was 7.8 at EYBL and 5.6 REBS in HS. If asked to REB, Cam will.

4. Cam's defensive talent rivals Lonzo Ball's. A lot of people say Cam is PG like on D but Cam body is different. He has great footwork with good lateral quickness, a tad stiff which is good for defensive instincts like Ball, in fact, his body functions a lot like Ball and not so much like PG. I felt I liked Cam on D more as a prospect in terms of finish product than Zo, both are very similar. Both had excellent steals rates. Before Cam's injury, Cam had an elite steal rate. Both show elite potential in terms of perimeter defense and I think Cam has more shot blocking potential as of the 26 shots Cam blocked, 19 were on ball. That's an excellent number as off ball blocks are always more likely in the NBA but on ball is truly signs of an elite freakish defender. Cam's development throughout the season, he became a much better man defender in terms of discipline when before he was just overly aggressive and while the numbers are good, he wasn't as effective in my opinion. That said, he needs to be aggressive playing the passing lanes but discipline. Unlike Baze and Prince, he has the hand speed like Ball to be effective doing it and not putting the team in harms way.

Like Ball, it wouldn't surprise me if he was an impact on defense Day 1 and someone who can be seen as a defensive specialist day 1. If he matches his offensive impact with his defensive impact, he would be one of the best VORP and BPM rookies since Tim Duncan and rivaling Tim Duncan. Cam could be worth a lot of wins as a rookie. Even in college, it goes understated how good Cam's defense is for his team. Of the two games Cam missed, Duke lost one to Syracuse of all teams with Zion and R.J. and needed luck v. VT in the NCAA tournament. For as much talk Zion gets, that when he was out, Duke was 3-3 but Duke lost to a top 10 ranked VT team and UNC twice who they needed to be at full strength to beat. They didn't lose to unranked Cuse.

5. Spacing. The biggest thing v. Moss other than off the field stuff was his route running, his level of competition and he wouldn't be open like that in college, and it's easy to put up numbers when you got a very talented NFL potential QB in Pennington v. supremely inferior teams in the MAC or D2 and they couldn't beat anyone that had a pulse. Where was this at Florida State? What happened? He joined the Minnesota Vikings.

What made Randy special that season was that three critical things.

1. Fit - Even though Brad Johnson wasn't an ideal fit, he was a good QB who knew how to manage the game. He was consistent and had a good feel for the game. His backup was Randall Cunningham who best days was behind him and at best at his stage had a great deep ball and was more of a gunslinger but not really that accurate of an all around passer. But with Moss, it was a perfect fit.

He had a good running game with Robert Smith.

Most important, he had one of the best WR tandems in Jake Reed and Cris Carter where you couldn't double team him and if you did, someone was always open which really opened the game up for Cunningham who had easy targets to throw to. This was critical because Moss rookie success would NOT be possible without his supporting cast which takes us to the Hawks and Reddish.

Trae as been mention but what about the others. Collins is an elite PnR PF in the mold of a modern Karl Malone with stretch talent and less of a post up player. Alex Len is a 36% 3pt shooter on low volume and a good PnR finisher in general. Kevin Huerter is a perfect fit marksman who is excellent at standstill, C&S and has range like Trae and Reddish while having playmaking and decision making chops on the ball. We basically have the 6th most efficient offense with Collins on the court last season. That's with two rookies and a 2nd year Collins. With Trae/Kev/Collins adding Trae, it could be like the Vikings adding Moss to Reed/Carter/Smith and eventually Cunningham as Atlanta spacing is already in a top percentile and we are still babies.

6. Our system is dope. We have a system that plays the style that can allow this to happen. 1st place in PACE. It's possible.

7. Our coach allows mistakes. None of this is possible with Joeger as a HC. With LP, it's all possible as LP wants to win but he wants to develop the guys more than anything and put them in the best position to shine.

8. Duke developed him perfectly. Duke did a hell of a job. They didn't play to his strengths and developed his movement, his defense and his willingness to do anything including sacrifice to win. This is a hard thing to do for coaches. For example, the reason Trae struggle was OU was built around him. He had to adjust to how he needed to play in the NBA. Cam kinda already did that and some. Maybe way too much but it will help us as his transition should be the most smooth of all of our rookies that has came in the last 5 years. Probably the easiest transition since Al Horford. Most rooks have to adjust to a role foreign to what they did in college. Cam's is him with what he did at Duke. Probably the easiest transition of all rookies in along time.

9. Cam has an NBA body already. He has a NBA ready body so he doesn't have to worry about that part which many rookies do.

10. Cam's personality is a perfect fit for our locker room. Which is important because while he was cool with everyone at Duke and everyone likes Cam, he wasn't loved. I think with us, he will be loved. He fits Trae, De'Andre, Kevin, Bruno and John seamlessly.

In ATL, he committed to defense and 3pt shooting. He often drew the toughest defensive assignments and did well with them.

I think he will find synergy with Barrett in what may be becoming Barrett's team. I think he would allow Barrett to slot back to the 2 guard while locking down the 3 effectively. Unclear where Reddish immediately fits in the rotation, but I can't imagine they traded a likely 1st round pick this year for a back of the bench player. At the least, they switch their 3rd (4th?) string PF for a 2nd string SF.

We may still lose this trade - Knox was underutilized here and may just need a change of venue to unlock some greater potential. Regardless, that was not happening here.

Reddish reminds me of Otto Porter in so many ways. I think he could work his way into the starting rotation by creating synergy with Barrett and doing what he does - playing Defense.