foosballnick wrote:Randle for Fox

Had just seen this floated on Twitter.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/sny_knicks/status/1484209117967183875

Talk about completely shaking up your team identity! Can't say I wouldn't think about it...

Philc1 wrote:

Nalod wrote:I would not trade RJ straight up for simmons.
OBI and IQ are not NBA starters yet. So value is not high.

We want the starphuch. Our FO, MIlls and Aller will grind it out. Media will stir us up to read trade ideas and make more issues than exist.

We sort of fixed our starting unit. Rande, RJ and EF paying very well the last 5-6 games. No trades needed. Execution and chemistry.

When I see Kemba killing it shows the promise of what he could be. If he can’t be that, he is a bit of liabilty. If he can’t shoot, defenders sag off him and his defense suffers if hampered by the knee. Thats why he is either in or out. If it byes time to develop IQ and Deuce, thats ok and happening.

The Reddish trade? We paid little and for the most part he either stays the same, does not improve, or gets much improved. 33% chance of each? Not a given is it? But thats ok. We get a chance/opportunity to get lucky. WE traded a lo 1st round pick whose odds and timeline might not be much better if at all.

Deuce is not there yet. He had one good outing which showed alot. Rookies are inconsistant but at least it showed what can be. At 21 im not saying we give up, but I sure as hell are not letting him grow on the court and lose games. We don’t do that.

If we trade RJ for Ben Simmons I’m becoming a nets fan. Holy cow that’s a horrible idea

BigDaddyG wrote:

MaTT4281 wrote:

foosballnick wrote:Randle for Fox

Had just seen this floated on Twitter.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/sny_knicks/status/1484209117967183875

Talk about completely shaking up your team identity! Can't say I wouldn't think about it...

I think it's more realistic that Fox bounces back to last year's production than Randle...I'd have to think on this one too.

I wouldn't blame them for this trade. Don't see it happening, but the way we looked with Randle as the lead, it hasn't looked good this year. or maybe everybody else just looks better. I would hate to get rid of Randle, because I believe he has the heart of a New Yorker, get out of my way, bully style. I love it. So I'm on the fence with this trade.

BigDaddyG wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

Nalod wrote:I would not trade RJ straight up for simmons.
OBI and IQ are not NBA starters yet. So value is not high.

We want the starphuch. Our FO, MIlls and Aller will grind it out. Media will stir us up to read trade ideas and make more issues than exist.

We sort of fixed our starting unit. Rande, RJ and EF paying very well the last 5-6 games. No trades needed. Execution and chemistry.

When I see Kemba killing it shows the promise of what he could be. If he can’t be that, he is a bit of liabilty. If he can’t shoot, defenders sag off him and his defense suffers if hampered by the knee. Thats why he is either in or out. If it byes time to develop IQ and Deuce, thats ok and happening.

The Reddish trade? We paid little and for the most part he either stays the same, does not improve, or gets much improved. 33% chance of each? Not a given is it? But thats ok. We get a chance/opportunity to get lucky. WE traded a lo 1st round pick whose odds and timeline might not be much better if at all.

Deuce is not there yet. He had one good outing which showed alot. Rookies are inconsistant but at least it showed what can be. At 21 im not saying we give up, but I sure as hell are not letting him grow on the court and lose games. We don’t do that.

If we trade RJ for Ben Simmons I’m becoming a nets fan. Holy cow that’s a horrible idea

I think about it if it's possible. Simmons is talented and young. He also showed he can carry a team during stretches when Embiid was hurt. I like RJ, don't get me wrong, but we're still talking about his potential. It's possible that RJ will never have the same impact Ben does. Sixers would never accept that deal, but I'd be open.

Simmons is a cancer. We are trying to create a culture here.

He also can’t shoot from 3 and doesn’t help us with our biggest need which is perimeter shooting

Philc1 wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

Nalod wrote:I would not trade RJ straight up for simmons.
OBI and IQ are not NBA starters yet. So value is not high.

We want the starphuch. Our FO, MIlls and Aller will grind it out. Media will stir us up to read trade ideas and make more issues than exist.

We sort of fixed our starting unit. Rande, RJ and EF paying very well the last 5-6 games. No trades needed. Execution and chemistry.

When I see Kemba killing it shows the promise of what he could be. If he can’t be that, he is a bit of liabilty. If he can’t shoot, defenders sag off him and his defense suffers if hampered by the knee. Thats why he is either in or out. If it byes time to develop IQ and Deuce, thats ok and happening.

The Reddish trade? We paid little and for the most part he either stays the same, does not improve, or gets much improved. 33% chance of each? Not a given is it? But thats ok. We get a chance/opportunity to get lucky. WE traded a lo 1st round pick whose odds and timeline might not be much better if at all.

Deuce is not there yet. He had one good outing which showed alot. Rookies are inconsistant but at least it showed what can be. At 21 im not saying we give up, but I sure as hell are not letting him grow on the court and lose games. We don’t do that.

If we trade RJ for Ben Simmons I’m becoming a nets fan. Holy cow that’s a horrible idea

I think about it if it's possible. Simmons is talented and young. He also showed he can carry a team during stretches when Embiid was hurt. I like RJ, don't get me wrong, but we're still talking about his potential. It's possible that RJ will never have the same impact Ben does. Sixers would never accept that deal, but I'd be open.

Simmons is a cancer. We are trying to create a culture here.

He also can’t shoot from 3 and doesn’t help us with our biggest need which is perimeter shooting

Our biggest need? This has multiple needs like driving, driving, passing, effort. Simmons has weakness, but the things he excels at he does at a high level. And I've never questioned his effort on the court, which is more than I can say for our PF.

Yes but perimeter shooting has been our biggest problem going back multiple regimes including the current one

Huh? That's not correct at all.

BigDaddyG wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

Nalod wrote:I would not trade RJ straight up for simmons.
OBI and IQ are not NBA starters yet. So value is not high.

We want the starphuch. Our FO, MIlls and Aller will grind it out. Media will stir us up to read trade ideas and make more issues than exist.

We sort of fixed our starting unit. Rande, RJ and EF paying very well the last 5-6 games. No trades needed. Execution and chemistry.

When I see Kemba killing it shows the promise of what he could be. If he can’t be that, he is a bit of liabilty. If he can’t shoot, defenders sag off him and his defense suffers if hampered by the knee. Thats why he is either in or out. If it byes time to develop IQ and Deuce, thats ok and happening.

The Reddish trade? We paid little and for the most part he either stays the same, does not improve, or gets much improved. 33% chance of each? Not a given is it? But thats ok. We get a chance/opportunity to get lucky. WE traded a lo 1st round pick whose odds and timeline might not be much better if at all.

Deuce is not there yet. He had one good outing which showed alot. Rookies are inconsistant but at least it showed what can be. At 21 im not saying we give up, but I sure as hell are not letting him grow on the court and lose games. We don’t do that.

If we trade RJ for Ben Simmons I’m becoming a nets fan. Holy cow that’s a horrible idea

I think about it if it's possible. Simmons is talented and young. He also showed he can carry a team during stretches when Embiid was hurt. I like RJ, don't get me wrong, but we're still talking about his potential. It's possible that RJ will never have the same impact Ben does. Sixers would never accept that deal, but I'd be open.

Simmons is a cancer. We are trying to create a culture here.

He also can’t shoot from 3 and doesn’t help us with our biggest need which is perimeter shooting

Our biggest need? This has multiple needs like driving, driving, passing, effort. Simmons has weakness, but the things he excels at he does at a high level. And I've never questioned his effort on the court, which is more than I can say for our PF.

How's that effort on the court looking this season? Or in the playoffs last season, when you could never question his excelling at running away from the ball. Or should I say "excelerating" away from the ball?

Please stop with the Simmons tripe. We already gave Knox away and Philly would have to give us 14 1st rounders to take that albatross salary off their hands.

Notice how much Philly really seems to be missing Simmon's perceived excellence?

jskinny35 wrote:

NYKMentality wrote:Trade Randle for Fox? That's nuts.

▪︎ Fox only has a career FG% of .458%.
▪︎ Fox only has a career 3PT% of .314%.
▪︎ Fox only has a career FT% of .722%.
▪︎ Fox only has a career rebounding average of 3.5.
▪︎ Fox averages 2.8 turnovers per game.
▪︎ Fox only has a career Player Efficiency Rating of 17.4

All 6 of those statistics are worse than Julius Randle's.

It wouldn't take long before Fox became NYs new whipping boy because let's be honest here. This is a classic example of NY fans over-rating a player who we don't even watch play basketball on a consistent and/or nightly basis.

▪︎And Fox (as a PG) only has a career average of 6.2 assists (not very good for a ball dominant PG) because even Julius Randle averaged 6.0 assists last year and even 5.1 assists this year.

You think Sacramento fans are happy with Fox leading them to a losing record of 18-29 and 11 games below .500 as their starting PG this year?

Randle has career averages of 47.7%, 33.6% 3pt FG%, 74.2 FT %, 9.3 Rebounds, 2.7 TO as a ball dominant forward... so?

Point is it's obvious you can't accurately/fairly compare different players (on different teams that play different positions) statistically. Fox has flaws like most NBA players - question is how would they be on the Knicks? Would Thibs's coaching help him hide or minimize most of them or would they be exacerbated? Not sure how that plays out but I'd consider rolling the dice since Fox is younger, possesses clear talent and would likely yield more if a future trade needed to occur.

Your loyalty to Randle is somewhat admirable - but at some point you have to try to make arguments that have some credibility/value and show some understanding of how team basketball works. It's not baseball where you can compare batting averages.

If I were a supporter of Randle I would evaluate Fox's defensive capabilities, limited outside shooting and his quality as a teammate. Randle has really struggled this season, not just in production or 3pt FG % - but with consistent effort, on-court composure and leadership. In contrast - last season he was pretty amazing. You can't defend certain realities that are indisputable IMO.

I wouldn’t trade Randle for Fox simply because it’s been proven you can win with an offense built around Randle but not Fox. I’d add Fox to this team with Randle to infuse some 2-way talent, but not swap them out.

Here’s one thing I don’t understand about trading randle. Instead of trading him because he’s playing bad, wouldn’t it be easier to sort of revert back to what was working when he was playing well? In other words, swap out Walker for a PG more suitable for a Randle-centric team and see if last year wasn’t a fluke. My guess is Randle will never have a year like last year but can get closer to that with the right players around him. Even Randle playing bad, this team was lost without him those couple games he was in protocols. They couldn’t beat a stripped down OKC team. Randle is so valuable just from the attention he draws. We just need better complimentary players.

Knixkik wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:

NYKMentality wrote:Trade Randle for Fox? That's nuts.

▪︎ Fox only has a career FG% of .458%.
▪︎ Fox only has a career 3PT% of .314%.
▪︎ Fox only has a career FT% of .722%.
▪︎ Fox only has a career rebounding average of 3.5.
▪︎ Fox averages 2.8 turnovers per game.
▪︎ Fox only has a career Player Efficiency Rating of 17.4

All 6 of those statistics are worse than Julius Randle's.

It wouldn't take long before Fox became NYs new whipping boy because let's be honest here. This is a classic example of NY fans over-rating a player who we don't even watch play basketball on a consistent and/or nightly basis.

▪︎And Fox (as a PG) only has a career average of 6.2 assists (not very good for a ball dominant PG) because even Julius Randle averaged 6.0 assists last year and even 5.1 assists this year.

You think Sacramento fans are happy with Fox leading them to a losing record of 18-29 and 11 games below .500 as their starting PG this year?

Randle has career averages of 47.7%, 33.6% 3pt FG%, 74.2 FT %, 9.3 Rebounds, 2.7 TO as a ball dominant forward... so?

Point is it's obvious you can't accurately/fairly compare different players (on different teams that play different positions) statistically. Fox has flaws like most NBA players - question is how would they be on the Knicks? Would Thibs's coaching help him hide or minimize most of them or would they be exacerbated? Not sure how that plays out but I'd consider rolling the dice since Fox is younger, possesses clear talent and would likely yield more if a future trade needed to occur.

Your loyalty to Randle is somewhat admirable - but at some point you have to try to make arguments that have some credibility/value and show some understanding of how team basketball works. It's not baseball where you can compare batting averages.

If I were a supporter of Randle I would evaluate Fox's defensive capabilities, limited outside shooting and his quality as a teammate. Randle has really struggled this season, not just in production or 3pt FG % - but with consistent effort, on-court composure and leadership. In contrast - last season he was pretty amazing. You can't defend certain realities that are indisputable IMO.

I wouldn’t trade Randle for Fox simply because it’s been proven you can win with an offense built around Randle but not Fox. I’d add Fox to this team with Randle to infuse some 2-way talent, but not swap them out.

Here’s one thing I don’t understand about trading randle. Instead of trading him because he’s playing bad, wouldn’t it be easier to sort of revert back to what was working when he was playing well? In other words, swap out Walker for a PG more suitable for a Randle-centric team and see if last year wasn’t a fluke. My guess is Randle will never have a year like last year but can get closer to that with the right players around him. Even Randle playing bad, this team was lost without him those couple games he was in protocols. They couldn’t beat a stripped down OKC team. Randle is so valuable just from the attention he draws. We just need better complimentary players.

I'm 100% wanting to shift the offense so it's not Randle-focused as I don't believe you can win at a high level when the offense is focused around one player - unless that player possesses most of the following on an elite level: court vision, composure, leadership, athleticism, skills, two-way effort. IMO Randle last season demonstrated the elite 3pt shooting but struggled in most of the other areas. This year that 3pt elite shooting is gone and likely to not return and sustain on that high level from last season. Every top playoff team that focused on one specific player demonstrates qualities listed above (eg Giannis - athletically superior, Luka/Jokic - court vision, Lebron - composure and several others (although diminishing somewhat)). Now I would be open to shifting Randle to be the #2 or #3 guy but a)it's doubtful he would accept a demoted position at this stage in his career and b)very unlikely we could acquire a top tier talent without using our player with the most value (Randle).

We keep trying to fit players around Randle - based on Randle's limitations. Even Fox who you suggested would be an awful fit next to Randle as Fox doesn't shoot well enough from outside and also plays at a significantly faster pace than Randle does. Moving Randle for Fox would signify a shift that the 90's era is over and we are going to try to play that pace that most of the successful playoff teams have been playing at for the past few seasons. Warriors, Suns, Nuggets, Mavs, Bucks, Nets all play at a much faster tempo then the Knicks (we are either last or 2nd to last in pace play). Now I fully understand Toppin is not Randle and will probably never be - but the point is to use players that complement and/or maximize the accompanying players. I think Toppin could score 16-17pts nightly in a run n gun style offense - even if he never develops that outside shot he needs to. RJ wants to run as does the entire 2nd unit. Mitch would get more lobs and PnR play, etc... or we keep watching Randle ISO and kickout to an inconsistently average outside shooting team and hope that RJ eventually surpasses Randle as the focal point (which could happen eventually). You are right that the team looked lost without Randle and would likely struggle transitioning if Randle were to depart... that said our ceiling was last year when we overachieved and were swept in the first round so why should we think Randle will all of the sudden change and become even better then he was last season? I do think Brunson would help - but more help like get us into the 1st round again. Haliburton would also help but none of these moves would move the needle enough when factoring in we would deplete our bench (our strength) and picks to make this incremental move. Time to pick the scab, let it bleed and go forward even if it means a step back.