I think Fournier is the bigger problem, but even here, on it’s own, not a killer deal.

We would have been better off not signing him, keeping his salary open, and rolling with the rookies we had already signed. Maybe get a 1 year rental vet signing.

I said in the Evan Fournier- our biggest mistake was locking money up in a SG (regardless of his questionable performance in the past) when our single biggest need was a PG.

Jimbo5 wrote:It was reported that Thibs was lobbying hard to resign Bullock, instead of giving in, the front office prioritized EF, on paper a way way better offensive player but a questionable defensive player.

Im not busting the balls of the front office when it comes to the contract they gave out over the summer, they are still all reasonable to a certain extent but its their ability to evaluate a player's fit in the team is whats iffy.

I would rather focus my efforts in signing Lonzo then figure out wing help as the secondary move. Aside from Lonzo i dont have any free agents on the top of my head that iwould like to sign last summer. Maybe even Lonzo is not the correct free agent if the front office believes Deuce or IQ can step up in a year or 2. Maybe they are better off looking for 1 year rentals for the cap space they gave to EF and Kemba.

Im just worried about the FO's thought process when the trade rumors heats up. I dont want them to get Dame, Wall, Westbrook or Schroder.I think Ben Simmons is the closest player that can fit the defensive 1st mentality of the team but his lack of 3pt shooting is a concern, Thibs so far hasn't shown the ability to cover up the weaknesses of his players, atleast not this season. I dont want the FO to mortgage the team's future for a superstar big name that is not fit to the style Thibs wants to play.

EF as said was not a killer deal and he shot 41% from the 3 last year. Before you go off on him perhaps he is having shoulder issues. The suction cup treatments/marks are telling. Our shorthanded roster forces him to play if he can. He should at 29 come back to his norm. “Should”. Nothing is given.

YOu fear the “starphuch”. Its when Dolan instructs his minions to get a star in the house. It distracts the fans who get enamored the new found hope. Its in our fandom DNA.

Its ok to not understand why the team is not functioning to last years standard. This **** happens and perhaps we go on a nice run or we tank. Reggie and Payton were good chemistry pieces but we no doubt hit our ceiling with them. we tried to improve upon that and thus far are not succeeding. Blow it up? Seems a bit drastic. Make a trade seems logical to fans. Maybe a tweek or two is the smart thing and it works. We are poised to make a big trade but they have to nail it for the long term.

Jimbo5 wrote:This past draft gave me enough confidence with the front office's ability to find talent in the draft. Unfortunately, i cant say the same about their ability to evaluate veterans that fits in Thibs' system. They ignored Thibs request to resign Bullock instead they made EF as their top prize in free agency. They were also influenced by the feel good story of bringing home Kemba. These two major moves I think contributed in undoing the 90's knicks grit culture that endeared last year's knicks to its Fans.

This is why im terrified by the start of the trading season now that the free agent signings can now be traded. The front office might be looking at any superstar available regardless of fit with the team and the timeline. I dont like this front office making any big trades and giving away any of the young core as well as the draft picks they have saved. At this point i just dont trust their ability to find existing talent/superstar players that fits well with Thibs's system.

Over the past 2 years the Knicks FO has brought in vets Burks, Noel, Austin Rivers, Rose, Taj, Fournier, Kemba.

This past offseason they got Kemba as a steal at his $ amount and give or take no team with interest in the playoffs and a second PG would have turned that down.

So mostly we are down to Fournier that you don't care for and who is under performing right along with Randle, RJ compared to previous season.

The one assumption that I do not understand is that we all saw the flaw of Bullock and know the Knicks needed to upgrade that position. So, the Thibs decision was down to Burks and Bullock and he probably gave his indication where he wanted to go - Burks - and so it wasn't that the FO ignored the Thibs request to bring Bullock back but rather they made a different decision. Similarly, maybe they offered Bullock the Kemba slot money and HE is the one that refused to join the Knicks for better money in Dallas, so it wasn't really a Knicks decision.

SergioNYK wrote:I think Scott Perry is a major issue. We signed Elfrid Payton twice cause he drafted him in Orlando and I got a strong feeling he pushed hard to sign Fournier. That's 2 horrendous players brought in by Perry. Let's hope he goes to Portland soon.

Honest question: How does any poster just pick out one guy from the FO or coaching staff and then just blame that person for a decision that was made without having one inkling about what actually happened and who had what opinion on what player?

SergioNYK wrote:I think Scott Perry is a major issue. We signed Elfrid Payton twice cause he drafted him in Orlando and I got a strong feeling he pushed hard to sign Fournier. That's 2 horrendous players brought in by Perry. Let's hope he goes to Portland soon.

as if last season was not on him either? The return to respectable street and after one third of a season jettison as if that will change the team around this season? Fine one to blame and extract him for instant gratification?
As I have learned, EF was drafted and played for Denver before he was traded to Orlando. In his 5 full seasons there they went to the playoffs twice.

Scott Perry was the Vice president and Assistant GM to Rob Hennigan who ran the Magic. Hennigan was fired. The Devoss family who owns Amway, and are very conservative right wingers might have had no interst in hiring a black man to take his place. We don't know if Perry was influential in certain decisions that are often "Parroted" around here. We don't know who had final say to draft and trades. That Perry came out and was respected to get not just one but two jobs and respected and rehired by Leon, and now is named as a potential candidate to be president by the blazers speaks volume about how he is respected.

All execs have players they draft that did not pan out as expected. Same for trades, free agents, etc. Orlando notoriously flaky onwnership has infrequently provided "Dolan like" inconsistencies thru numerous change of objectives.
To simply say EF is solely on Perry either in orlando or NY is simply ignoring many facts. EF numbers the last few years are quite good and his salary is not out of line.
Is he playing well now? No. Fans prerogative to have a hissy fit and wish him gone.

franco12 wrote:Everyone is talking about Kemba. $8m per year for 2 is chicken feed on the cap.

I think Fournier is the bigger problem, but even here, on it’s own, not a killer deal.

We would have been better off not signing him, keeping his salary open, and rolling with the rookies we had already signed. Maybe get a 1 year rental vet signing.

I said in the Evan Fournier- our biggest mistake was locking money up in a SG (regardless of his questionable performance in the past) when our single biggest need was a PG.

Maybe OKC is willing to take on both the Randle and EF contracts?

franco12 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

franco12 wrote:Everyone is talking about Kemba. $8m per year for 2 is chicken feed on the cap.

I think Fournier is the bigger problem, but even here, on it’s own, not a killer deal.

We would have been better off not signing him, keeping his salary open, and rolling with the rookies we had already signed. Maybe get a 1 year rental vet signing.

I said in the Evan Fournier- our biggest mistake was locking money up in a SG (regardless of his questionable performance in the past) when our single biggest need was a PG.

It's not a PG, its a stretch big, or a quicker big and it's not even close..

Noel, Taj and Mitch have giving us almost nothing combine, no scoring, no rebounding, sub par interior defense, zero perimeter defense.

They are too slow to guard stretch bigs on defense, limited offensively, can't shoot, can't run the floor as rim runners, won't space the floor...WTF are they good for?

Dude you are stuck on the C position and a stretch big to the detriment of everything else that is going on.

You know who has one of the better and more fun teams to watch this year? Cleveland. They start three 7 footers, none are really above average 3pt shooters and really only 2 shoot outside of the paint area.

You use the tools that are given to you and the Knicks wanted to build around the defense that Noel and Mitch bring. Right now they are not up to par. Wishing they were different won't change anything.

I have not gotten to watch much of Cleveland - but I have been meaning to check them out.

A solid team is when the PG and Center positions are locked up. And Cleveland has those positions filled with their best young talent. Along with Allen as the Mitch type Center, who is killing it, thanks to Garland with his playmaking.

I believe a stretch 5 is not the total answer. It's the mobility of your center, that's whats important. They have 7 footers who are more agile than our centers (and not afraid to shoot). But it's not just about the center. Again, a solid team usually has 2 position locked up. and for us, those 2 positions are still in question. PG and Center. I thought Mitch, Noel and Taj would hold down the center spot for now. And if we had a Garland, CP3 or any other legit PG (Jalen Brunson), we would look a lot better than our current record. Burks and Kemba are more shooting guards than playmaking guards. We need a PG who can not only shoot, but has playmaking skills that makes others better.

Been saying this since draft day, but Deuce should be groomed for that role. IQ should be groomed as a scoring PG / combo guard. I just don't trust IQ defense against stronger players, from what I've seen. Deuce is an ex football player who came to college with a football and basketball scholarship, which is why I love his toughness and trust his ability to guard multiple PG types (big, strong, fast). For his height, this dude is very strong. Deuce and Rose running the point, would do wonders for this team, with Deuce and or IQ as backups. But if Deuce doesn't display the playmaking ability that improves the play of our bigs, then that's a problem we still haven't addressed. So the center and PG positions together are equally important. Outside of the Pacers fire sale, not sure when and where we can improve our center position. But we definitely can improve our PG spot, either with a trade or (internally) with Rose until Deuce or IQ is fully developed to take over. But this is also tricky, since Rose is better as a backup and said that's what he prefers.

THIS IS WHY THIBS MAKES THE BIG BUCKS. And knicks fans continue to coach from their man cave!

MS wrote:Honesty to date they made one poor move and that was signing Fournier.

$8MM for Walker is like the veterans minimum at this point in time. Most executives would have taken a flyer there.

Rose has been tremendous for us and that wasn’t a no brainer considering how he played the last time around. Burks has been effective and has a great contract. Noel played some of the best defense in the NBA last season, is he overpaid now, certainly. But they have done a very solid job with their front office, coach selection and right now our drafting looks ****ing solid.

Obi, is looking like a difference maker and momentum changer off the bench. IQ is a rotation player and an asset and Grimes looks like a knock down shooter. Deuce snd Simms also look like rotation players in years to come.

The big mistake was not understanding our biggest need was elite scoring. Derozen has been top of the league for a very long time and he was great with the Spurs. If you going to spend 28MM on Burks and Fournier why not just give that money to him. Lonzo as well $18MM for Kemba and Noel could have been spent better there. Could have got a MgGee, Howard type for a vet minimum snd really balanced out the roster with scoring.

You are not wrong here but both DeRozan and Lonzo were sign & trades and I think the Knicks perhaps didn't have that type of player flexibility or assets... maybe. Lonzo was a restricted free agent so Pelicans could match and/or had to agree with the players and assets coming back. I don't know if Knicks would have been able straight out sign DeRozan and kept Rose/Burks/Noel (certainly no Kemba).