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Bullish on Deuce
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DLeethal
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3/19/2024  9:57 AM    LAST EDITED: 3/19/2024  9:57 AM
For those who think losing Grimes inhibits our ability to make a trade, I'd bet strongly Deuce already has better trade value than him. Not that I want to trade him of course.
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nycericanguy
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3/19/2024  10:22 AM
DLeethal wrote:For those who think losing Grimes inhibits our ability to make a trade, I'd bet strongly Deuce already has better trade value than him. Not that I want to trade him of course.

IDK, I think Grime's size intrigued teams. Deuce is 6'1 and struggles to run point so his best position is SG. He needs to show he can score consistently, otherwise he's a backup SG and I'm not sure the value is so high there.

Now Grimes value probably peaked a 12-18 months ago and was trending down for sure.
VDesai
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3/19/2024  10:31 AM
Wrote this on the game thread but Deuce on defense is like a shut down CB vs. opposing partners. He can be left on an island to guard them one on one. He will stay in front and fight through screens and hound the dribble from 3/4 court. Our bigs/rim protectors can play deep like safeties and protect the rim knowing how long he can keep his matchup in front of him. He won't stop every shot, but the work rate he creates can wear down opposing PGs. As we potentially face the likes of Maxey, Garland, Haliburton and Lillard in the playoffs, the lineup where he plays off ball next to Brunson will be crucial. Kudos to Thibs for starting this lineup - a major adjustment to last game where we got killed at the start.
martin
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3/19/2024  10:58 AM
nycericanguy wrote:
DLeethal wrote:For those who think losing Grimes inhibits our ability to make a trade, I'd bet strongly Deuce already has better trade value than him. Not that I want to trade him of course.

IDK, I think Grime's size intrigued teams. Deuce is 6'1 and struggles to run point so his best position is SG. He needs to show he can score consistently, otherwise he's a backup SG and I'm not sure the value is so high there.

Now Grimes value probably peaked a 12-18 months ago and was trending down for sure.

Deuce also struggled to shoot. You describe players as stand-still time capsules in the past.

Where do you project Deuce? That's the better question and what needs to be talked about, not the struggles of prior years.

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DLeethal
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3/19/2024  11:02 AM
nycericanguy wrote:
DLeethal wrote:For those who think losing Grimes inhibits our ability to make a trade, I'd bet strongly Deuce already has better trade value than him. Not that I want to trade him of course.

IDK, I think Grime's size intrigued teams. Deuce is 6'1 and struggles to run point so his best position is SG. He needs to show he can score consistently, otherwise he's a backup SG and I'm not sure the value is so high there.

Now Grimes value probably peaked a 12-18 months ago and was trending down for sure.

IDK, Grimes is a little small to guard forwards so he's basically a tweener guard too. His size does not really outweigh what Deuce actually produces on the court. He doesn't look much bigger than Divencenzo out there. Deuce is a 6th man type that brings elite defense and instant offense/elite shooting. Grimes is basically a backup SG until he figures out how to score consistently. Plenty of teams would love Deuce to come of their bench.
nycericanguy
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3/19/2024  11:11 AM    LAST EDITED: 3/19/2024  11:11 AM
DLeethal wrote:
nycericanguy wrote:
DLeethal wrote:For those who think losing Grimes inhibits our ability to make a trade, I'd bet strongly Deuce already has better trade value than him. Not that I want to trade him of course.

IDK, I think Grime's size intrigued teams. Deuce is 6'1 and struggles to run point so his best position is SG. He needs to show he can score consistently, otherwise he's a backup SG and I'm not sure the value is so high there.

Now Grimes value probably peaked a 12-18 months ago and was trending down for sure.

IDK, Grimes is a little small to guard forwards so he's basically a tweener guard too. His size does not really outweigh what Deuce actually produces on the court. He doesn't look much bigger than Divencenzo out there. Deuce is a 6th man type that brings elite defense and instant offense/elite shooting. Grimes is basically a backup SG until he figures out how to score consistently. Plenty of teams would love Deuce to come of their bench.

Grimes is built like a tank though, he was guarding guys like Butler who plays PF these days. I dont think he's too small to guard forwards, he's bigger than Josh Hart who guards forwards just fine.

He hasn't panned out but he was a 6'4 wide bodied guard who could shoot the 3 and defend and not require the ball.

Just seems like his mental makeup isn't there, combined with constant nagging injuries.
nycericanguy
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3/19/2024  11:13 AM
martin wrote:
nycericanguy wrote:
DLeethal wrote:For those who think losing Grimes inhibits our ability to make a trade, I'd bet strongly Deuce already has better trade value than him. Not that I want to trade him of course.

IDK, I think Grime's size intrigued teams. Deuce is 6'1 and struggles to run point so his best position is SG. He needs to show he can score consistently, otherwise he's a backup SG and I'm not sure the value is so high there.

Now Grimes value probably peaked a 12-18 months ago and was trending down for sure.

Deuce also struggled to shoot. You describe players as stand-still time capsules in the past.

Where do you project Deuce? That's the better question and what needs to be talked about, not the struggles of prior years.

Where did I ever suggest he can't get better?

IDK where Deuce projects, but one of the knocks on him was he wasn't a true PG and as well as he's played, he does struggle to run a team and consistently get in the paint and or finish at the rim.
martin
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3/19/2024  11:17 AM    LAST EDITED: 3/19/2024  11:19 AM
nycericanguy wrote:
martin wrote:
nycericanguy wrote:
DLeethal wrote:For those who think losing Grimes inhibits our ability to make a trade, I'd bet strongly Deuce already has better trade value than him. Not that I want to trade him of course.

IDK, I think Grime's size intrigued teams. Deuce is 6'1 and struggles to run point so his best position is SG. He needs to show he can score consistently, otherwise he's a backup SG and I'm not sure the value is so high there.

Now Grimes value probably peaked a 12-18 months ago and was trending down for sure.

Deuce also struggled to shoot. You describe players as stand-still time capsules in the past.

Where do you project Deuce? That's the better question and what needs to be talked about, not the struggles of prior years.

Where did I ever suggest he can't get better?

IDK where Deuce projects, but one of the knocks on him was he wasn't a true PG and as well as he's played, he does struggle to run a team and consistently get in the paint and or finish at the rim.

You didn't. But you also only describe players as if they don't get better. You infer it: "Deuce is 6'1 and struggles to run point so his best position is SG."

That's you legit saying Deuce will not get better as a PG and so his best position is SG.

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martin
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3/19/2024  11:22 AM
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nycericanguy
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3/19/2024  11:25 AM    LAST EDITED: 3/19/2024  11:25 AM
martin wrote:
nycericanguy wrote:
martin wrote:
nycericanguy wrote:
DLeethal wrote:For those who think losing Grimes inhibits our ability to make a trade, I'd bet strongly Deuce already has better trade value than him. Not that I want to trade him of course.

IDK, I think Grime's size intrigued teams. Deuce is 6'1 and struggles to run point so his best position is SG. He needs to show he can score consistently, otherwise he's a backup SG and I'm not sure the value is so high there.

Now Grimes value probably peaked a 12-18 months ago and was trending down for sure.

Deuce also struggled to shoot. You describe players as stand-still time capsules in the past.

Where do you project Deuce? That's the better question and what needs to be talked about, not the struggles of prior years.

Where did I ever suggest he can't get better?

IDK where Deuce projects, but one of the knocks on him was he wasn't a true PG and as well as he's played, he does struggle to run a team and consistently get in the paint and or finish at the rim.

You didn't. But you also only describe players as if they don't get better. You infer it: "Deuce is 6'1 and struggles to run point so his best position is SG."

That's you legit saying Deuce will not get better as a PG and so his best position is SG.

talking about a players deficiencies doesn't mean or imply they can never get better. come on now.

with that logic we should never even discuss draft picks.
DLeethal
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3/19/2024  11:25 AM
nycericanguy wrote:
DLeethal wrote:
nycericanguy wrote:
DLeethal wrote:For those who think losing Grimes inhibits our ability to make a trade, I'd bet strongly Deuce already has better trade value than him. Not that I want to trade him of course.

IDK, I think Grime's size intrigued teams. Deuce is 6'1 and struggles to run point so his best position is SG. He needs to show he can score consistently, otherwise he's a backup SG and I'm not sure the value is so high there.

Now Grimes value probably peaked a 12-18 months ago and was trending down for sure.

IDK, Grimes is a little small to guard forwards so he's basically a tweener guard too. His size does not really outweigh what Deuce actually produces on the court. He doesn't look much bigger than Divencenzo out there. Deuce is a 6th man type that brings elite defense and instant offense/elite shooting. Grimes is basically a backup SG until he figures out how to score consistently. Plenty of teams would love Deuce to come of their bench.

Grimes is built like a tank though, he was guarding guys like Butler who plays PF these days. I dont think he's too small to guard forwards, he's bigger than Josh Hart who guards forwards just fine.

He hasn't panned out but he was a 6'4 wide bodied guard who could shoot the 3 and defend and not require the ball.

Just seems like his mental makeup isn't there, combined with constant nagging injuries.

I think Grimes being built like a tank is straight up hyperbole. Josh Hart is built like a tank.

Grimes did do well against Butler, I'll give him that, but I think that was an exception and not the rule with him and I don't think he used his strength to body up as much as his hands and quick feet to frustrate him.
DLeethal
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3/19/2024  11:28 AM
nycericanguy wrote:
martin wrote:
nycericanguy wrote:
DLeethal wrote:For those who think losing Grimes inhibits our ability to make a trade, I'd bet strongly Deuce already has better trade value than him. Not that I want to trade him of course.

IDK, I think Grime's size intrigued teams. Deuce is 6'1 and struggles to run point so his best position is SG. He needs to show he can score consistently, otherwise he's a backup SG and I'm not sure the value is so high there.

Now Grimes value probably peaked a 12-18 months ago and was trending down for sure.

Deuce also struggled to shoot. You describe players as stand-still time capsules in the past.

Where do you project Deuce? That's the better question and what needs to be talked about, not the struggles of prior years.

Where did I ever suggest he can't get better?

IDK where Deuce projects, but one of the knocks on him was he wasn't a true PG and as well as he's played, he does struggle to run a team and consistently get in the paint and or finish at the rim.

How many bench guards are true PGs though? Scoring guards are the norm, Deuce can operate the PG just fine if you have some half court creators on the court with him. Deuce is elite defender and looks like an elite shooter that barely needs any daylight to bang 3s or pull-up 2s. He's valuable, especially on his contract.
nycericanguy
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3/19/2024  11:29 AM
DLeethal wrote:
nycericanguy wrote:
DLeethal wrote:
nycericanguy wrote:
DLeethal wrote:For those who think losing Grimes inhibits our ability to make a trade, I'd bet strongly Deuce already has better trade value than him. Not that I want to trade him of course.

IDK, I think Grime's size intrigued teams. Deuce is 6'1 and struggles to run point so his best position is SG. He needs to show he can score consistently, otherwise he's a backup SG and I'm not sure the value is so high there.

Now Grimes value probably peaked a 12-18 months ago and was trending down for sure.

IDK, Grimes is a little small to guard forwards so he's basically a tweener guard too. His size does not really outweigh what Deuce actually produces on the court. He doesn't look much bigger than Divencenzo out there. Deuce is a 6th man type that brings elite defense and instant offense/elite shooting. Grimes is basically a backup SG until he figures out how to score consistently. Plenty of teams would love Deuce to come of their bench.

Grimes is built like a tank though, he was guarding guys like Butler who plays PF these days. I dont think he's too small to guard forwards, he's bigger than Josh Hart who guards forwards just fine.

He hasn't panned out but he was a 6'4 wide bodied guard who could shoot the 3 and defend and not require the ball.

Just seems like his mental makeup isn't there, combined with constant nagging injuries.

I think Grimes being built like a tank is straight up hyperbole. Josh Hart is built like a tank.

Grimes did do well against Butler, I'll give him that, but I think that was an exception and not the rule with him and I don't think he used his strength to body up as much as his hands and quick feet to frustrate him.

Grimes is listed at 6'5, look at him compared to Jhart. Grimes has always had those tree trunk legs

https://pcdn.columbian.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Knicks_Trail_Blazers_Basketball_23739.jpg-ecb68.jpg
nycericanguy
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3/19/2024  11:31 AM
DLeethal wrote:
nycericanguy wrote:
martin wrote:
nycericanguy wrote:
DLeethal wrote:For those who think losing Grimes inhibits our ability to make a trade, I'd bet strongly Deuce already has better trade value than him. Not that I want to trade him of course.

IDK, I think Grime's size intrigued teams. Deuce is 6'1 and struggles to run point so his best position is SG. He needs to show he can score consistently, otherwise he's a backup SG and I'm not sure the value is so high there.

Now Grimes value probably peaked a 12-18 months ago and was trending down for sure.

Deuce also struggled to shoot. You describe players as stand-still time capsules in the past.

Where do you project Deuce? That's the better question and what needs to be talked about, not the struggles of prior years.

Where did I ever suggest he can't get better?

IDK where Deuce projects, but one of the knocks on him was he wasn't a true PG and as well as he's played, he does struggle to run a team and consistently get in the paint and or finish at the rim.

How many bench guards are true PGs though? Scoring guards are the norm, Deuce can operate the PG just fine if you have some half court creators on the court with him. Deuce is elite defender and looks like an elite shooter that barely needs any daylight to bang 3s or pull-up 2s. He's valuable, especially on his contract.

well I mean I think that's the value issue, is he a bench guard or can he project as a legit starter?

I think, and maybe I'm wrong, but I think teams viewed Grimes as a legit potential starting prospect, not sure if teams will view Miles the same.
VDesai
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3/19/2024  11:48 AM
Deuce is a work in progress at PG, but it takes time and he hasn't had a lot of game reps. Teams will trap him and he picks up his dribble too quickly. He also seems to have issues with shot clock awareness as the clock will be winding down and he'll feed someone too late or not start looking for a shot himself. Over time he will get better at these two pieces and that will help him run a passable back up point. 2nd level is how much better he gets at creating for others, but there's some game management issues that he needs to clean up first.

That said his value as a 3 and D player is rising. Clearly he's not a wing, but given the proliferation of really strong lead guards in the NBA, his value as a matchup player is rising. The fact that he has been totally money on catch and shoot and corner 3's gives him the ability to play off the ball next to Brunson and take pressure off him on the other end of the floor. That will be valuable in the right playoff matchups. He may not have as much value in helping us beat Boston, but I think he helps vs. Cle, Indy, Philly, Milwaukee that have quick, scoring PGs.
martin
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3/19/2024  11:55 AM
nycericanguy wrote:
martin wrote:
nycericanguy wrote:
martin wrote:
nycericanguy wrote:
DLeethal wrote:For those who think losing Grimes inhibits our ability to make a trade, I'd bet strongly Deuce already has better trade value than him. Not that I want to trade him of course.

IDK, I think Grime's size intrigued teams. Deuce is 6'1 and struggles to run point so his best position is SG. He needs to show he can score consistently, otherwise he's a backup SG and I'm not sure the value is so high there.

Now Grimes value probably peaked a 12-18 months ago and was trending down for sure.

Deuce also struggled to shoot. You describe players as stand-still time capsules in the past.

Where do you project Deuce? That's the better question and what needs to be talked about, not the struggles of prior years.

Where did I ever suggest he can't get better?

IDK where Deuce projects, but one of the knocks on him was he wasn't a true PG and as well as he's played, he does struggle to run a team and consistently get in the paint and or finish at the rim.

You didn't. But you also only describe players as if they don't get better. You infer it: "Deuce is 6'1 and struggles to run point so his best position is SG."

That's you legit saying Deuce will not get better as a PG and so his best position is SG.

talking about a players deficiencies doesn't mean or imply they can never get better. come on now.

with that logic we should never even discuss draft picks.

You are the only one here who has pigeon-holed Deuce as a backup SG.

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Nalod
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3/19/2024  12:02 PM
Deuce shot opens his game up. Until he could hit it he was not effective.
Players could drop back if he wanted to penetrate.
The game also slowed down for him.
The above got his playmaking up to standard were he gets minutes.
If his ceiling is higher teams will come a knocking and will be great trade fodder if he is valued as a starter.
We do need to fill our yoot back up. Good teams do this. develop to play or trade. Either ways its good!!
We need to continue to draft.
nycericanguy
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3/19/2024  12:26 PM
martin wrote:
nycericanguy wrote:
martin wrote:
nycericanguy wrote:
martin wrote:
nycericanguy wrote:
DLeethal wrote:For those who think losing Grimes inhibits our ability to make a trade, I'd bet strongly Deuce already has better trade value than him. Not that I want to trade him of course.

IDK, I think Grime's size intrigued teams. Deuce is 6'1 and struggles to run point so his best position is SG. He needs to show he can score consistently, otherwise he's a backup SG and I'm not sure the value is so high there.

Now Grimes value probably peaked a 12-18 months ago and was trending down for sure.

Deuce also struggled to shoot. You describe players as stand-still time capsules in the past.

Where do you project Deuce? That's the better question and what needs to be talked about, not the struggles of prior years.

Where did I ever suggest he can't get better?

IDK where Deuce projects, but one of the knocks on him was he wasn't a true PG and as well as he's played, he does struggle to run a team and consistently get in the paint and or finish at the rim.

You didn't. But you also only describe players as if they don't get better. You infer it: "Deuce is 6'1 and struggles to run point so his best position is SG."

That's you legit saying Deuce will not get better as a PG and so his best position is SG.

talking about a players deficiencies doesn't mean or imply they can never get better. come on now.

with that logic we should never even discuss draft picks.

You are the only one here who has pigeon-holed Deuce as a backup SG.

you're reading what you want to read for some reason, i said UNLESS he can score consistently he's probably best suited as a backup.

somehow you turn that into "deuce will never be more than a backup and has reached his ceiling"?
martin
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3/19/2024  12:44 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/19/2024  12:44 PM
nycericanguy wrote:
martin wrote:
nycericanguy wrote:
martin wrote:
nycericanguy wrote:
martin wrote:
nycericanguy wrote:
DLeethal wrote:For those who think losing Grimes inhibits our ability to make a trade, I'd bet strongly Deuce already has better trade value than him. Not that I want to trade him of course.

IDK, I think Grime's size intrigued teams. Deuce is 6'1 and struggles to run point so his best position is SG. He needs to show he can score consistently, otherwise he's a backup SG and I'm not sure the value is so high there.

Now Grimes value probably peaked a 12-18 months ago and was trending down for sure.

Deuce also struggled to shoot. You describe players as stand-still time capsules in the past.

Where do you project Deuce? That's the better question and what needs to be talked about, not the struggles of prior years.

Where did I ever suggest he can't get better?

IDK where Deuce projects, but one of the knocks on him was he wasn't a true PG and as well as he's played, he does struggle to run a team and consistently get in the paint and or finish at the rim.

You didn't. But you also only describe players as if they don't get better. You infer it: "Deuce is 6'1 and struggles to run point so his best position is SG."

That's you legit saying Deuce will not get better as a PG and so his best position is SG.

talking about a players deficiencies doesn't mean or imply they can never get better. come on now.

with that logic we should never even discuss draft picks.

You are the only one here who has pigeon-holed Deuce as a backup SG.

you're reading what you want to read for some reason, i said UNLESS he can score consistently he's probably best suited as a backup.

somehow you turn that into "deuce will never be more than a backup and has reached his ceiling"?

The context of the back and forth was the trade value of Grimes and Deuce. That's why I asked you what you thought of the long term value and what Deuce projected to be.

DLeethal wrote:For those who think losing Grimes inhibits our ability to make a trade, I'd bet strongly Deuce already has better trade value than him. Not that I want to trade him of course.

Trade value has a lot to do with what you project.

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DLeethal
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3/19/2024  12:52 PM
Yea this went off the rails a little bit but I think the purpose of the discussion was if you asked a team take your pick, Deuce or Grimes? I think most right now are taking Deuce. You can see he is getting more and more National recognition during some of these higher profile games.
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