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Randle-Ball
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Uptown
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11/22/2021  3:39 PM
Last year’s 2021 Knicks team, may have been the 2013 version of the Knicks in terms of the right pieces in place to play Randle-ball. The 2013-Melo ball Knicks peaked as a 2nd round playoff team and last years Randle-ball knicks peaked as a 4th seed. Of course, last year’s team benefited from an abnormal year due to covid, fan-less arenas, injuries, etc. Melo was top 3 in MVP voting and Randle was 2nd team all NBA. Melo never came close to MVP again and although Randle is younger, I doubt we will see another season like that from Randle. In the moment, I think most Knick fans enjoyed the 2013 season. But the few of us who stepped outside of the moment and peeked down the road knew a team of Kidd, Kurt Thomas and Wallace didn’t have much of a future. As much as Knicks fans enjoyed last season, most realistic fans knew, that last year’s team wouldn’t have the same success in the future.

In 2013, management knew we needed more offense but made the mistake of adding Bargs. This year we added more offense with Evan and Kemba. The problem is when you commit to playing Melo-ball or Randle-ball, you can’t add too many pieces that need the ball to be effective because Randle is going to occupy the ball most of the time and if you are not a sole catch and shoot player, at times you may look a little lost as you try to fit in. We had 2 options this summer; we needed to bring in a player who is no doubt a better player than Randle as to force us away from Randle-Ball, or move Randle when as his value was as high it will ever be. I was in the camp of moving him this summer.

Randle-Ball is one of the main reasons why this offense is stagnant, inconsistent, and uninspiring. Similar to Melo, Randle plants himself at the high elbow, demanding the ball for a high post-up. When he gets it, it grinds the offense to a halt. He holds the ball waiting for double teams that may or may not come. His teammates are standing around on the perimeter on the weak side, no cutting, no off-ball screens, and ultimately no ball movement (This is Thibs fault as well, for not being innovative on the offensive end). When Randle does pass it, it’s rarely to get the ball moving but to get a direct assist. How many times have we seen Randle hold the ball, run down the shot clock, then throw a jump pass to Fournier, Quickley, or Burks who has to put up 3 at the end of the shot? When he doesn’t have the ball, he never cuts, and usually, when he sets screens, it is to repost and get the ball back. There were a few times when he set a pick for Kemba and rolled to the basket for a couple of easy dunks. It happened last night against the Bulls, but we didn’t go back to it because Randle went back to the high post, demanding the ball. I thought we were done with this **** when we finally moved Melo…

Two of RJ’s strengths coming out of Duke were that of a slasher and an open-court player. Our 1st unit never pushes the tempo and our Iso-centric offense has turned RJ into a spot-up shooter. RJ is 6’6, 215lbs. RJ needs to be playing downhill. Would like to see more off-the-ball basket cuts. Maybe some duck-ins for quick post-ups to take advantage of his strength and size. RJ has the size and strength to play bully-ball, not spending most of the offense hanging out 23 feet from the basket while Randle massages the ball. Randle isn’t the only one to blame for our lackluster offense, Thibs takes a lot of the blame too but that’s another thread.

In the end, it looks like we are headed towards a 7-10 seed this year. We may shuffle some chairs around next year, but as long as Randles is sitting at the head of the table, it will probably be much more of the same.

AUTOADVERT
fishmike
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11/22/2021  4:20 PM
I think all your observations are spot on except the end game... the goal is to evolve, not to settle. Thibs is always talking about getting better and holding these guys accountable. Randle's EFF% hasnt been this bad since his rookie year. It cant be expected to live and die with Randle ball with all the offense we have on this roster. I just cant believe Thibs dies on that island.

There will be some changes and evolving but you know with Thibs its slow... but its already happening with the bench guys and their minutes increasing and the Rose/IQ/Burks squad give Randle some looks for sure they are def not dropping it to him and standing around. Those 3 are aggressive and have no issues getting shots playing next to Randle.

Why are you lamenting being 7-10 seed? We are young, have a lot of internal upside, still have extra picks and assets, remain flexible... we are a year away from being among the league's worst

Its funny (more others than OP) really dog Thibs, yet after one year of watching a Thibs team everyone doesnt understand why we arent a #1 seed and on our way to 50-60 wins.

We saw this staff rally a rag tag crew to a good record. Now we have some offense and more depth but they have yet to work it out. Lets see if they can.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Clean
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11/22/2021  5:04 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/22/2021  5:05 PM
When you said I thought we were done with ISO ball when Melo left I felt that. I hated it then even while making it to round 2. I hate it even more now because Randle is not as good as Melo in ISO situations. The most infuriating thing is we have had times this season where ball movement and 2 man games have worked well. Yet we always go to ISO Randle. Beginning of the year I loved this team. After game 6 that turned to hate. Not because of losses but because of how we play. All we are now is turnovers, bad defense, ISO ball and favoritism. Everything I hate about basketball. Someone said we are a young team. This is true and false. We have a good amount of young players on our team but they don't get much actual game time overall so we are actually an oldish team.
BigDaddyG
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11/22/2021  5:15 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/22/2021  5:16 PM
Agree. Randle isn't a good enough decision maker right now to justify running the offense through him as much has they do. I don't believe he's selfish, just a bit bullheaded. Also, he doesn't see the floor at a high level. Also, wouldn't mind more motion offensively. Evan.and RJ are good cutters, but that gets overshadowed by all the isolation.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
rich1223
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11/22/2021  5:32 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/22/2021  5:32 PM
Randle has no handle!lol yet they still let him bring the ball up the court!smfh!
martin
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11/22/2021  5:40 PM
rich1223 wrote:Randle has no handle!lol yet they still let him bring the ball up the court!smfh!

I will never understand why he brings the ball up either

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xavier
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11/22/2021  6:26 PM
I have to admit I thought it was something completely different when I saw the “Randle-Ball” title
Knixkik
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11/22/2021  6:33 PM
I liked some of the pick and roll action we saw from Randle and Walker in the 3rd. There’s a ton of potential between the 2 of them with Barrett cutting and Fournier spotting up.
Uptown
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11/22/2021  7:07 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/22/2021  7:12 PM
fishmike wrote:I think all your observations are spot on except the end game... the goal is to evolve, not to settle. Thibs is always talking about getting better and holding these guys accountable. Randle's EFF% hasnt been this bad since his rookie year. It cant be expected to live and die with Randle ball with all the offense we have on this roster. I just cant believe Thibs dies on that island.

There will be some changes and evolving but you know with Thibs its slow... but its already happening with the bench guys and their minutes increasing and the Rose/IQ/Burks squad give Randle some looks for sure they are def not dropping it to him and standing around. Those 3 are aggressive and have no issues getting shots playing next to Randle.

Why are you lamenting being 7-10 seed? We are young, have a lot of internal upside, still have extra picks and assets, remain flexible... we are a year away from being among the league's worst

Its funny (more others than OP) really dog Thibs, yet after one year of watching a Thibs team everyone doesnt understand why we arent a #1 seed and on our way to 50-60 wins.

We saw this staff rally a rag tag crew to a good record. Now we have some offense and more depth but they have yet to work it out. Lets see if they can.

Two summers ago, when the Knicks were interviewing dozens of candidates for the head coaching spot (which was a joke, Thibs landing the Knicks head coaching job was the worse kept secret), I mentioned in one of the threads that Thibs had the best resume and he checked most of the boxes. But, I also said I still wouldn’t hire him.

Thibs was/is a win-now coach about to coach a team that was still rebuilding and was far from ready to win-now. My biggest concern with hiring Thibs was that his presence and philosophy would cause us to skip steps in our rebuild and that’s what we did this summer. We all thought he would get more W’s than Fiz and Miller, but he squeezed more W’s than any of us thought. The front office evaluated the season and instead of trying to get younger, longer, and more athletic on the wings which is what we needed, they re-upped on Randle and identified 2 weak areas in our starting unit, PG and Wing. Essentially, we replaced two back-ups (Bullock and a 3rd stringer in Payton) with two fringe starters, one of them is a 31-year-old, post-injury, past his prime lead guard. Those were two win-now moves that the front office and Thibs hoped would perhaps get us past the 1st rounds or at least get us past or on equal grounds with a team like the Hawks. Unfortunately, the Hawks are still more talented, and deeper than we are.

You mentioned Thibs holding guys accountable. It’s clear that some guys have longer leashes than others. If we see it, you better believe the players see it too. Fournier was our big splash this summer, I do wonder about his confidence in himself and in the coach after being benched for 6 or 7 straight games for the 4th quarter. He made some interesting comments recently. I’m paraphrasing but he complained about the “lack of ball movement” as the reason for his struggles and he also talked about the lack of chemistry may be due to the lack of “practicing 5-on-5”. Not sure if anyone caught a comment Randle made during the playoffs, but he mentioned the lack of adjustments the Knicks were making as one of the reasons he struggled so much. Maybe I’m reading too much into this, but I do wonder how much Thibs is communicating his thoughts and actions to his players. We all saw the ****-show that went on in Minny with Butler under Thibs watch. I am definitely watching.

BigDaddyG
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11/22/2021  7:19 PM
Uptown wrote:
fishmike wrote:I think all your observations are spot on except the end game... the goal is to evolve, not to settle. Thibs is always talking about getting better and holding these guys accountable. Randle's EFF% hasnt been this bad since his rookie year. It cant be expected to live and die with Randle ball with all the offense we have on this roster. I just cant believe Thibs dies on that island.

There will be some changes and evolving but you know with Thibs its slow... but its already happening with the bench guys and their minutes increasing and the Rose/IQ/Burks squad give Randle some looks for sure they are def not dropping it to him and standing around. Those 3 are aggressive and have no issues getting shots playing next to Randle.

Why are you lamenting being 7-10 seed? We are young, have a lot of internal upside, still have extra picks and assets, remain flexible... we are a year away from being among the league's worst

Its funny (more others than OP) really dog Thibs, yet after one year of watching a Thibs team everyone doesnt understand why we arent a #1 seed and on our way to 50-60 wins.

We saw this staff rally a rag tag crew to a good record. Now we have some offense and more depth but they have yet to work it out. Lets see if they can.

Two summers ago, when the Knicks were interviewing dozens of candidates for the head coaching spot (which was a joke, Thibs landing the Knicks head coaching job was the worse kept secret), I mentioned in one of the threads that Thibs had the best resume and he checked most of the boxes. But, I also said I still wouldn’t hire him.

Thibs was/is a win-now coach about to coach a team that was still rebuilding and was far from ready to win-now. My biggest concern with hiring Thibs was that his presence and philosophy would cause us to skip steps in our rebuild and that’s what we did this summer. We all thought he would get more W’s than Fiz and Miller, but he squeezed more W’s than any of us thought. The front office evaluated the season and instead of trying to get younger, longer, and more athletic on the wings which is what we needed, they re-upped on Randle and identified 2 weak areas in our starting unit, PG and Wing. Essentially, we replaced two back-ups (Bullock and a 3rd stringer in Payton) with two fringe starters, one of them is a 31-year-old, post-injury, past his prime lead guard. Those were two win-now moves that the front office and Thibs hoped would perhaps get us past the 1st rounds or at least get us past or on equal grounds with a team like the Hawks. Unfortunately, the Hawks are still more talented, and deeper than we are.

You mentioned Thibs holding guys accountable. It’s clear that some guys have longer leashes than others. If we see it, you better believe the players see it too. Fournier was our big splash this summer, I do wonder about his confidence in himself and in the coach after being benched for 6 or 7 straight games for the 4th quarter. He made some interesting comments recently. I’m paraphrasing but he complained about the “lack of ball movement” as the reason for his struggles and he also talked about the lack of chemistry may be due to the lack of “practicing 5-on-5”. Not sure if anyone caught a comment Randle made during the playoffs, but he mentioned the lack of adjustments the Knicks were making as one of the reasons he struggled so much. Maybe I’m reading too much into this, but I do wonder how much Thibs is communicating his thoughts and actions to his players. We all saw the ****-show that went on in Minny with Butler under Thibs watch. I am definitely watching.


To be fair, and I'm not absolving Thibs of the Minny crap show since he was also team president, Butler's tantrum was mainly centered around his contract. I don't have a problem with FO's strategy this past off-season. They did bring in four young players and tried to wrangle in Duarte in the draft. Things just didn't work out. You need vets, even if you're trying to get younger and the deals they gave aren't horrendous. I think the FO realized the off season moves weren't going to make them contenders, but there weren't many other moves out there to make. I think they just wanted to make some progress in a way that the cripple them down the line
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
jskinny35
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11/22/2021  7:59 PM
You've been able to articulate what I've tried, but mostly failed to do for the past year. I think the part about Thibs is really underrated as there are some coaches that may not possess the adjustment-type skill needed, but the teams are always good/solid, dependable and will always get maximum effort from their players. Thibs seems to that type of coach so far.

Well said and agree!!

Uptown
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11/22/2021  8:37 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/22/2021  11:30 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
Uptown wrote:
fishmike wrote:I think all your observations are spot on except the end game... the goal is to evolve, not to settle. Thibs is always talking about getting better and holding these guys accountable. Randle's EFF% hasnt been this bad since his rookie year. It cant be expected to live and die with Randle ball with all the offense we have on this roster. I just cant believe Thibs dies on that island.

There will be some changes and evolving but you know with Thibs its slow... but its already happening with the bench guys and their minutes increasing and the Rose/IQ/Burks squad give Randle some looks for sure they are def not dropping it to him and standing around. Those 3 are aggressive and have no issues getting shots playing next to Randle.

Why are you lamenting being 7-10 seed? We are young, have a lot of internal upside, still have extra picks and assets, remain flexible... we are a year away from being among the league's worst

Its funny (more others than OP) really dog Thibs, yet after one year of watching a Thibs team everyone doesnt understand why we arent a #1 seed and on our way to 50-60 wins.

We saw this staff rally a rag tag crew to a good record. Now we have some offense and more depth but they have yet to work it out. Lets see if they can.

Two summers ago, when the Knicks were interviewing dozens of candidates for the head coaching spot (which was a joke, Thibs landing the Knicks head coaching job was the worse kept secret), I mentioned in one of the threads that Thibs had the best resume and he checked most of the boxes. But, I also said I still wouldn’t hire him.

Thibs was/is a win-now coach about to coach a team that was still rebuilding and was far from ready to win-now. My biggest concern with hiring Thibs was that his presence and philosophy would cause us to skip steps in our rebuild and that’s what we did this summer. We all thought he would get more W’s than Fiz and Miller, but he squeezed more W’s than any of us thought. The front office evaluated the season and instead of trying to get younger, longer, and more athletic on the wings which is what we needed, they re-upped on Randle and identified 2 weak areas in our starting unit, PG and Wing. Essentially, we replaced two back-ups (Bullock and a 3rd stringer in Payton) with two fringe starters, one of them is a 31-year-old, post-injury, past his prime lead guard. Those were two win-now moves that the front office and Thibs hoped would perhaps get us past the 1st rounds or at least get us past or on equal grounds with a team like the Hawks. Unfortunately, the Hawks are still more talented, and deeper than we are.

You mentioned Thibs holding guys accountable. It’s clear that some guys have longer leashes than others. If we see it, you better believe the players see it too. Fournier was our big splash this summer, I do wonder about his confidence in himself and in the coach after being benched for 6 or 7 straight games for the 4th quarter. He made some interesting comments recently. I’m paraphrasing but he complained about the “lack of ball movement” as the reason for his struggles and he also talked about the lack of chemistry may be due to the lack of “practicing 5-on-5”. Not sure if anyone caught a comment Randle made during the playoffs, but he mentioned the lack of adjustments the Knicks were making as one of the reasons he struggled so much. Maybe I’m reading too much into this, but I do wonder how much Thibs is communicating his thoughts and actions to his players. We all saw the ****-show that went on in Minny with Butler under Thibs watch. I am definitely watching.


To be fair, and I'm not absolving Thibs of the Minny crap show since he was also team president, Butler's tantrum was mainly centered around his contract. I don't have a problem with FO's strategy this past off-season. They did bring in four young players and tried to wrangle in Duarte in the draft. Things just didn't work out. You need vets, even if you're trying to get younger and the deals they gave aren't horrendous. I think the FO realized the off season moves weren't going to make them contenders, but there weren't many other moves out there to make. I think they just wanted to make some progress in a way that the cripple them down the line

As soon as I hit the send button, something told me to edit the piece about Manny as I didn't want that to be the focus of my extended post...lol.

The FO did a good job of not overpaying or over-extending on the contracts...they're movable which isn't a bad thing...

BRIGGS
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11/22/2021  11:06 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/22/2021  11:12 PM
The team is much younger than the one year wonder melo team. This team has much more realistic sustainability. Our biggest problems
A.accept 3/4 games when Barrett started looking like an all star he’s been awful
B. Fournier and kemba have not upgraded this team
C. Noel has been hurt too much Robinson is not there

Thibs gets accolades for changing “some” culture. But Derrick Rose is The ONLY reason he was coach of year. I would’ve liked to see an energy injection. Something like giving Grimes a chance or letting obi play 32 min. The only young player he’s been loyal to other than barrett is iq. Whatever it is- something. So I think he’s not a great adjuster— maybe loyal to a fault.

As far as Julius — we can win with him.there is absolutely no doubt in my mind. I think they 10 three point shot game woke him up. While he hasn’t been as good as last year— he’s not the biggest problem

RIP Crushalot😞
Philc1
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11/23/2021  8:56 AM
Knixkik wrote:I liked some of the pick and roll action we saw from Randle and Walker in the 3rd. There’s a ton of potential between the 2 of them with Barrett cutting and Fournier spotting up.

Randle actually had a really good game the other night. Maybe his best of the season. But that’s because he matches up well against the bulls small ball lineup where Derozan is the 4

Philc1
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11/23/2021  8:58 AM    LAST EDITED: 11/23/2021  8:59 AM
BRIGGS wrote:The team is much younger than the one year wonder melo team. This team has much more realistic sustainability. Our biggest problems
A.accept 3/4 games when Barrett started looking like an all star he’s been awful
B. Fournier and kemba have not upgraded this team
C. Noel has been hurt too much Robinson is not there

Thibs gets accolades for changing “some” culture. But Derrick Rose is The ONLY reason he was coach of year. I would’ve liked to see an energy injection. Something like giving Grimes a chance or letting obi play 32 min. The only young player he’s been loyal to other than barrett is iq. Whatever it is- something. So I think he’s not a great adjuster— maybe loyal to a fault.

As far as Julius — we can win with him.there is absolutely no doubt in my mind. I think they 10 three point shot game woke him up. While he hasn’t been as good as last year— he’s not the biggest problem

I’m just going to keep repeating it because it’s true. Kemba and EF cannot be on the floor at the same time. Neither guy is much of a defender now. Our starting lineup is a Swiss cheese D because of that

Between the 2 of them I like Kemba starting because of his shooting ability and the fact that we don’t have a better option for starting PG. Rose is a 6th man now and IQ is really a 2

Nalod
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11/23/2021  2:05 PM
Philc1 wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:The team is much younger than the one year wonder melo team. This team has much more realistic sustainability. Our biggest problems
A.accept 3/4 games when Barrett started looking like an all star he’s been awful
B. Fournier and kemba have not upgraded this team
C. Noel has been hurt too much Robinson is not there

Thibs gets accolades for changing “some” culture. But Derrick Rose is The ONLY reason he was coach of year. I would’ve liked to see an energy injection. Something like giving Grimes a chance or letting obi play 32 min. The only young player he’s been loyal to other than barrett is iq. Whatever it is- something. So I think he’s not a great adjuster— maybe loyal to a fault.

As far as Julius — we can win with him.there is absolutely no doubt in my mind. I think they 10 three point shot game woke him up. While he hasn’t been as good as last year— he’s not the biggest problem

I’m just going to keep repeating it because it’s true. Kemba and EF cannot be on the floor at the same time. Neither guy is much of a defender now. Our starting lineup is a Swiss cheese D because of that

Between the 2 of them I like Kemba starting because of his shooting ability and the fact that we don’t have a better option for starting PG. Rose is a 6th man now and IQ is really a 2

So if EF is not starting, do you have any reality based thinking as to what they should do? Is Burks a better defender? Or we on the Grimes bandwagon now? Cuz if so, EF is not on the second team is he?
I don't have any better ideas other than trying to understand the real issues at hand. Change is not always improvement.

knicks1248
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11/24/2021  7:59 AM
Small ball works for Randle, not understanding how some of you aren't seeing this.

ES
Nalod
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11/24/2021  9:49 AM    LAST EDITED: 11/24/2021  11:31 AM
knicks1248 wrote:Small ball works for Randle, not understanding how some of you aren't seeing this.

Its not our decision. Its Thibs.

Not understanding how you miss this.
Bigger question (Taxing isn’t it?) is you have by design Mitch and Norlens. Small ball by most teams by design or injury/necessity? I know analytics is beyond your reach for obvious reasons but i’d be interested to know when knicks do small how effective is it vs. big? Vs. 1st units? What is the law of diminishing return. When you run with it and then that unit gets fatiqued. Its all good when they do their thing and Thibs brings back the starters under fans protest but he knows there is but a limit to how long it lasts.

Philc1
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11/24/2021  10:22 AM
Nalod wrote:
Philc1 wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:The team is much younger than the one year wonder melo team. This team has much more realistic sustainability. Our biggest problems
A.accept 3/4 games when Barrett started looking like an all star he’s been awful
B. Fournier and kemba have not upgraded this team
C. Noel has been hurt too much Robinson is not there

Thibs gets accolades for changing “some” culture. But Derrick Rose is The ONLY reason he was coach of year. I would’ve liked to see an energy injection. Something like giving Grimes a chance or letting obi play 32 min. The only young player he’s been loyal to other than barrett is iq. Whatever it is- something. So I think he’s not a great adjuster— maybe loyal to a fault.

As far as Julius — we can win with him.there is absolutely no doubt in my mind. I think they 10 three point shot game woke him up. While he hasn’t been as good as last year— he’s not the biggest problem

I’m just going to keep repeating it because it’s true. Kemba and EF cannot be on the floor at the same time. Neither guy is much of a defender now. Our starting lineup is a Swiss cheese D because of that

Between the 2 of them I like Kemba starting because of his shooting ability and the fact that we don’t have a better option for starting PG. Rose is a 6th man now and IQ is really a 2

So if EF is not starting, do you have any reality based thinking as to what they should do? Is Burks a better defender? Or we on the Grimes bandwagon now? Cuz if so, EF is not on the second team is he?
I don't have any better ideas other than trying to understand the real issues at hand. Change is not always improvement.

What is the “real issue?” Should we try to trade draft picks to the suns for Elf to save the season?

Philc1
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11/24/2021  10:23 AM
knicks1248 wrote:Small ball works for Randle, not understanding how some of you aren't seeing this.

Lineups going small allows Randle to use his size and strength to go in the paint and post up at will. We saw it with the bulls

Randle-Ball

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