1.) Stockpiling draft picks, no matter where they fall in the first round, is essential. Not a single member of the Bucks core (Holiday, Giannis or Middleton) was drafted in the lottery. This seems to be an emerging trend set by previous champions like the Raptors. Even recent winners like the Spurs, Mavericks and the Warriors (pre-Durant) only had one top 8 pick to build around/with. Moving forward, I hope Rose is every hit as aggressive in seeking out first round picks as he is signing players to larger contracts.

2.) Even if you don't end up drafting players with those first round picks, they are essential in trading for the types of players that can be the lynchpin to your ultimate success (see Jrue Holiday trade). It's doubtful the Bucks would've been in contention for Holiday had they had a deficit of picks like we frequently had in the past.

3.) Player development is essential. We are a major market but it's unheard of to see a team build a title-team mostly through free agency (even the Heat already had Wade in 2010 to form their big 3; Lakers LeBron in 2019 to lure Anthony Davis via trade). Bucks drafted and developed Giannis and Middleton; while doing an excellent job in doing so with perpherial talent like Pat Connaughton, Dante DeVincinzo and Malcolm Brogdon (who they flipped for the pick that allowed them to dump dead contracts for George Hill; who they later flipped for Jrue Holiday).

It sucked to see Mike Miller, Kenny Atkinson and Josh Longstaff go. When they did, it felt like we stopped seeing dudes like Steve Novak, Jeremy Lin, Chris Copeland, Lance Thomas and Langston Galloway come off the street and make a meaningful difference. Johnny O'Bryant and co. seem to have recaptured some of that magic we had when those types of guys were around. I hope we figure out ways to keep developmental coaches that work on staff with competent underlings/support like the Raptors have with their 305 club (see their work with Pascal Siakim, Fred VanVleet, Norm Powell, Chris Boucher, Malachi Flynn etc.)

Nalod wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:Some of the things I've thought about:

1.) Stockpiling draft picks, no matter where they fall in the first round, is essential. Not a single member of the Bucks core (Holiday, Giannis or Middleton) was drafted in the lottery. This seems to be an emerging trend set by previous champions like the Raptors. Even recent winners like the Spurs, Mavericks and the Warriors (pre-Durant) only had one top 8 pick to build around/with. Moving forward, I hope Rose is every hit as aggressive in seeking out first round picks as he is signing players to larger contracts.

2.) Even if you don't end up drafting players with those first round picks, they are essential in trading for the types of players that can be the lynchpin to your ultimate success (see Jrue Holiday trade). It's doubtful the Bucks would've been in contention for Holiday had they had a deficit of picks like we frequently had in the past.

3.) Player development is essential. We are a major market but it's unheard of to see a team build a title-team mostly through free agency (even the Heat already had Wade in 2010 to form their big 3; Lakers LeBron in 2019 to lure Anthony Davis via trade). Bucks drafted and developed Giannis and Middleton; while doing an excellent job in doing so with perpherial talent like Pat Connaughton, Dante DeVincinzo and Malcolm Brogdon (who they flipped for the pick that allowed them to dump dead contracts for George Hill; who they later flipped for Jrue Holiday).

It sucked to see Mike Miller, Kenny Atkinson and Josh Longstaff go. When they did, it felt like we stopped seeing dudes like Steve Novak, Jeremy Lin, Chris Copeland, Lance Thomas and Langston Galloway come off the street and make a meaningful difference. Johnny O'Bryant and co. seem to have recaptured some of that magic we had when those types of guys were around. I hope we figure out ways to keep developmental coaches that work on staff with competent underlings/support like the Raptors have with their 305 club (see their work with Pascal Siakim, Fred VanVleet, Norm Powell, Chris Boucher, Malachi Flynn etc.)

Sucked to see those guys go but they never proved themselves as top dogs while here. Atkinson did great becuase he had an owner and GM who saw the only way out was the develop over a few seasons. Build up capital and have cap space. They created opportunity. Mills in hindsight was not far off the mark as but was hurt by Fizdales inadequacy, and KP’s injury and subsequent betrayal. Perhaps Dolan saw more upside with Leon than Mills who was also losing fans confidence. More important the culture of knicks was not repaired and was seen league wide with little respect. Leon brings cred without the bravado.

Kenny Atkinson was an assistant coach under D'Antoni. During that stretch (2008-2012) guys like Bill Walker, Landry Fields, Jeremy Lin, Steve Novak, Chris Copeland, Earl Barron (albeit to a lesser extent), Toney Douglas, etc all came out of no where to play useful minutes for us (and fell off the Earth when he/they left). Obviously he wasn't alone in facilitating that but I suspect he played a key role in the process, considering the job he did with the Nets. None of those guys would win you a title outright BUT their contributions on the backend of a rotation/roster can swing a possession or two in the playoffs, which is sometimes all you need. Think about how clutch Pat Connaughtans (butchered his name) were in game 5 and 6 down the stretch for the Bucks. That's exactly the kind of inexpensive player you want once your core is set. To have someone develop that type of player is "top dog" work in my opinion because they can make the difference when it matters most.

I was out on Steve Mills from jump. That Hardaway contract was inexcusable and the Porzingis trade was ill-timed at the very least. What he signed in the wake of the 2019 offseason was a poo-poo latter that Thibs and company somehow managed to make competitive through excellent coaching. I'm still not sure what to make of Rose but certainly approve of the men he has around him.

NardDogNation wrote:Obviously helping a perennial league MVP candidate helps but franchises (like us) have had that before and whiffed on winning a championship. Just thought this might be a useful exercise to contemplate as we move into the offseason and beyond.

Chris Paul/Devin Booker are both deficient defensively. The Bucks added PJ Tucker and Jrue Holiday, both upticked their defense dramatically. Holiday is an elite defender and Tucker is one of the most versatile in the entire league.

When the Knicks draft, outside of Tier 1 and Tier 2 in the first round ( basically the top 4-5 picks), they need to start at a baseline of an above average defender to start. A top 5 pick might be able to produce offensively to the point where it will balance out a net negative defender. However past that point in the draft, the Knicks can't afford any more roleless zero defenders.

Greek Freak is an elite player, but he has some major flaws in his game. A better team than the Suns could have exposed it, but lots of injuries this playoff cycle.

The Knicks need to simplify all of their drafting. Eliminate everyone with fundamental problems. If your footwork is ****, it's not going to likely get better. Why bother dealing with a player with major fundamental flaws. Toppin is nothing but fundamental problems. Eliminate anyone who can't defend his own weight. If the player won't rate to, at minimum, a league average defender to START, then eliminate that player.

Get fundamental players who are above average defenders, preferably long wings, and hope the offense translates. And hope past that point, that a few of those guys break out into something more.

IMHO, player development is vastly misunderstood at the NBA level. In general, you can't take an objectively flawed player and make him a valuable player simply via coaching/training/teaching investment. People misunderstand Duncan Robinson. Spolestra is the best coach in the entire league and he didn't magically turn a UDFA castoff into someone valuable. The inherent ability to succeed in the NBA was already there. The Heat simply put Robinson in a setting where he had leg room to let it bloom. A draftees projectible CEILING can usually be sussed out his first year. Getting to 90 percent of that ceiling usually doesn't unfold, barring massive injury or some other strange circumstance, until the midpoint of a players third full season.

If someone says, "The Knicks did a horrible job of developing Knox!" that implies another team could have made him into something valuable simply by coaching/training/teaching investment. That's not true. Knox just sucks. Some players finally push towards usefulness when they have a "Come To Jesus" moment when their career is on the line. Most don't.

In a GENERAL SENSE regarding all draftees -

You can't fix untalented.
You can't fix lazy
You can't fix stupid
You can't fix someone who is a gigantic piece of ****

Knox is talented and while he's low BBIQ, he's not stupid and he's actually come across as a decent enough guy. But he's soft and lazy, so even just one of those issues can tank you.

Most people misunderstood the movie Moneyball. It's NOT a baseball movie. It has baseball in it and talks about baseball concepts, but it's not a baseball movie. Most people don't get when Brad Pitt says he hates losing more than he loves winning. Actual winning players and useful players are obsessive. Most people don't see the concept until they spend time in a fight gym. Doing something 10 thousand times to get it right so you can use it in a fight requires a certain level of obsession.

The great ones, the great players have a quiet fear that spirals that person into an almost rage like perpetual state. They don't see sweat equity and bloodshed as a choice. They see their competition as prey.

A lot of people don't know how to pick a prospect to draft. Some people are forced by their owners to pick a poor choice. Many more bring their own madness into the equation ( Michael Jordan picked draftees based on how they would complement his game when he played, in a different game style and a different environment and with different market realities in place)

The Knicks basically need someone like me in charge. Because I'm not going to try to fix untalented, lazy, stupid or pieces of ****. Huge balls, huge hands, huge heart, I'm what solves this franchise's problems for good.

Philc1 wrote:Lesson #1: draft the worlds best player at 15 overall.

Ding, ding, ding!

And they were patient - the Knicks of old might have traded him.

knicks1248 wrote:

franco12 wrote:

Philc1 wrote:Lesson #1: draft the worlds best player at 15 overall.

Ding, ding, ding!

And they were patient - the Knicks of old might have traded him.

They mind as well because the knicks could never Develop, so young players rarely leveled up.

Didn't we draft his brother, or signed him?

We did. Maybe hoped he’d grow also. he is not very good BTW. Every team needs a Chris Smith to keep the family happy.

Patience. Are we exercising this with Knox and Frank? LOL>………..

franco12 wrote:

Philc1 wrote:Lesson #1: draft the worlds best player at 15 overall.

Ding, ding, ding!

And they were patient - the Knicks of old might have traded him.

NY has always been a tough market for young players to develop. Pressures from fans and media always manage to reach the top. We want things now. There is a good chance that a kid with NO outside shot and terrible free throw may have not been given a shot in NY. Hoping that is not the case going forward.

The biggest difference for the Bucks, besides allowing Giannis to flourish, was that the guys they put around them were solid all star type players that all played well in playoffs. They had solid scoring options other than GA. Middleton is a guy no one is really mentioning. He played like a true max player. He was the guy that kept them from losing several key games with multiple big shots. Guy played like a first option. Holiday was another guy that played like he was a first option. He also had a great playoffs. He was a bull on the offensive side. More importantly, he was a big upgrade on defense end. Made it tough for most of the PGs he faced. Another player that gets no mention is Brook Lopez. He had several good games and was tough to deal with down low. He also made some big shots in key moments of big games. Not to mention that defensively, he kept guys like Capella from having big games. Lastly, bringing in Tucker was huge. And probably the piece most needed. Tucker is the ideal glue guy. Brought grit and toughness to a group that was not feared or known for its toughness. Every chip team needs a dog. Tucker was it.

Their FO should get all the credit. They put VERY good players around their franchise player. Guys that ALL played well when it counted. However, lets not forget, they were a KD toe away from the "It's time to move on from Giannis" talk. Especially with his air balls at the free throw line.