These are 3 guys are ready to explode. IQ is working with KD personally. Obi has been in the gym non stop working with the dev team and has simply said of his second NBA season, “It’s going to be a lot different than the first season.”

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/IanBegley/status/1412933331063345155

Knicks have Jules/RJ/Obi/IQ/Mitch/Pele/Knox/Luca (8 guys) under contract next year
Knicks have 4 picks
Knicks could upgrade roster with plug and play guys like Conley/Oubre
Knicks could still have enough $ to bring Rose back

Rotation would look something like
PG Conley
SG RJ
SF Oubre
PF Jules
C Mitch
Bench: Rose, IQ, Obi, Luca

Deeper than last year, more athletic and more scoring punch. Thibs has 3 veteran attacking PGs who can shoot in Conley/Rose/Luca. Oubre is a wildcard but has another level to unlock. I like handing Thibs this challenge.

4 rookies on a 15 man roster (figure the 2nd rounders end up being 2-way guys or stash) is fine.

We are in a real position to build from within and if we can keep our young guys and draft well we end up with a roster loaded with young talent with some veteran floor generals and Thibs to push them

Regarding original post, I like Obi a lot but he is definitely touchable in my book. We just need to see good value in return. Knicks have a bit of a dilemma on their hands at the moment because they don't know what to think about Julius. Did he finally figure it out and will we see the same or better player going forward, in which case Obi is definitely touchable eg for some shooter or pg in return. Or was that an aberration for whatever reason in which case we shouldn't be paying the big bucks and in which case we may want/need Obi as an insurance policy in case Julius and Randle don't see eye to eye regarding the future.

All three are good eggs, with great attitudes and good work ethic. Super happy about that

Fans take last year an move it forward. We did not see randle coming. Why should we see everything else?

fishmike wrote:Obi, IQ and RJ should be untouchable this offseason

These are 3 guys are ready to explode.

From a principle standpoint, since it was a full regime change, Leon Rose and Thibs should not trade Toppin nor Quickley this offseason. It sends the wrong message about what the franchise is doing.

From a market reality standpoint, since it was a full regime change, Leon Rose and Thibs should trade Toppin as soon as possible. It's the best resource management decision for the franchise long term.

Sam Hinkie took a lot of **** for trading Michael Carter Williams so quickly after showing promise his rookie year. But Hinkie knew what the long term projection looked like. MCW was going to regress and the league was was going to catch up to his flaws and figure out how to play him better and even volume counting stats would not help the Sixers. You can see the backlash Hinkie took, but it was the right decision.

Punting on Knox and Frank N after their rookie years would have been the right decision. Knox's value was as high as it was ever going to get after his rookie year. Things that are seen now as consistent troubling problems would have looked possibly fixable by another overly optimistic team back then.

A complication is if you trade a rookie early in his rookie contract, his agent and his representation will **** a brick and won't stop attacking you in the press. They don't have a choice, it makes them look bad to future possible clients. But sometimes you see a player and realize you just need to cut bait.

Sam Hinkie just didn't give a **** what anyone thought of him. It, in part, cost him his NBA career. It's a functional problem for the NBA when winning basketball games comes low on the list behind internal league traditions and power brokering that don't actually help anyone build a better team.

Vesting for the 3rd and 4th year team option years for NBA first round picks should come with an automatic trigger system out of the hands of franchises front offices.

You produce at certain benchmarks/playing time requirements, your team options are picked up automatically. If you don't, they don't. The Rookie Scale Exception is horribly broken at this point. There is zero reason why a guy who works as incredibly hard as Xavier Tillman might struggle to reach his litmus to get an NBA pension but a pair of Jogging Kings like Knox and Frank Ntilikina are eating up service time as they lounge around like *******s.

No one on the Knicks roster is untouchable. There's a principle issue against trading Toppin and Quickley this offseason. But the best market place move would be to trade Toppin ASAP. Quickley looks like he will pan out and I'm glad he's on this team. RJB is producing past the actual market rate of his rookie contract, so he's providing massive value.

The league administration forcing the firing and blacklisting of Hinkie only set the stage for a future labor war that will devastate the league at some point.

One year that I went to MIT Sloan, a guy had a position paper ( and like many there, he was looking for an entry level job in the NBA) where he parroted something David Stern said years ago. Just give the NBPA their share of the BRI that's been negotiated, and let them decide how to divide the money without a formal structure like max contracts, rookie scales, etc, etc. It's actually a good idea because it would naturally dovetail into a NFL salary model. Wouldn't it have been nice if STAT stopped showing up to ****ing film festivals and blogging about wine baths and started working on defense like his job was on the line because his job would have been on the line in that kind of system? Wouldn't it be nice if every year was a contract year for everyone and all players have to fight like their very jobs depended on it all the time? But by saying this, this guy was never going to get hired by anyone. Because it bucks the "establishment" when it would actually foster a system that would help teams rebuild much faster and allow GMs to actually make real moves to help their teams win.

The agents in the NBA are one of the worst things to happen to the entire sport because so much of what they do actually hamstrings teams from finding practical pathways to actually win basketball games. My take on agents? If you take a job where you are paid to suck dick, don't throw a tantrum when someone standing over you expects you to swallow.

The NY Knicks should not trade Obi Toppin. But if they are doing their jobs right, they should desperately want to pull that trigger.

That being said
Number 1. Randle played like a franchise player regular season/- got to give him another year/ not tradable

Barrett is asset 2 If we trade for any big name he is GONE for reasonable compensation unless it’s a salary dump. In all likely hood going nowhere
Mitch asset 3. I’d love to say he’s untouchable but he still has a lot to prove. That being said he’s going no where
After that I don’t see 1 player that’s untouchable if it’s a trade that makes team better.

fishmike wrote:it would be such a sell low... he could be a monster. He's so long, fast and athletic. He works so hard and the coaching staff had him purely focused on doing the team stuff first. Its not gonna be long before he's good at those things he's shown improvement on (defense, handle, boxing out, not going for head fakes) AND he starts looking for his own shot watch out. I suspect its next year at some point. I really hope we wait and see

Stop Loss

Trading Obi Toppin right now would be a Stop Loss

https://hoopshabit.com/2016/02/06/revisiting-carter-williams-deal-shaped-76ers-season/

As the season progresses, it’s becoming increasingly apparent that the Sixers converted a low-key heist at the cost of receiving initial backlash. With a top-3 protected Lakers pick in hand, Sam Hinkie has plenty of options. He could hold onto the pick and hope it conveys either this season or next season in what’s projected to be a deep 2017 draft. Also, it could be useful for another rebuilding organization who’s looking to deal a star or pseudo-star.

Realizing that Carter-Williams plateaued and limited Philadelphia’s ceiling moving forward, Hinkie has opened up many routes the Sixers can take in order to find their next ideal point guard. Whether it’s via the draft or pillaging through the free agent market, the Sixers’ ceiling won’t be leveled by having a middling point guard control the offense.

This isn’t a knock on Carter-Williams’ game. He’s one of the league’s most versatile options at the point and has a great frame to showcase his athleticism and vision. However, Carter-Williams hasn’t developed into a star point guard in a league filled with them.

With Ish Smith completely overhauling the Sixers’ offensive game plan, Brett Brown at least has the confidence that he’ll have a point guard who can be a solid contributor in the league. Smith doesn’t have the ceiling or intangibles of MCW, but averaging 15.8 PPG and dishing out 7.9 APG warrants extensive playing time on a team devoid of legitimate backcourt talent.

If the Lakers pick doesn’t convey or the Sixers get terrible draft luck, the team won’t be in a position to draft the best player available .... With Smith’s rise to manning the team’s lead point guard role, and thriving in the position, the point guard spot has become less of an issue for the Sixers.

Even though the Sixers are 13-66 since Carter-Williams headed north, Smith has been the necessity at point guard who has given both Nerlens Noel and Jahlil Okafor a boost in efficiency....

Trading Carter-Williams was a questionable call at the time, but it’s provided Philadelphia with options — a facet of making deals and decisions that Hinkie covets.

http://thecomeback.com/freezingcoldtakes/nba/a-look-back-at-some-people-who-panned-the-sixers-and-the-process-for-trading-michael-carter-williams.html

How did that turn out? Not well. Carter-Williams found himself riding the Milwaukee bench by late November of the 2015-2016 season after coming back from an injury. A torn labrum in his left hip would later put him on the shelf for the remainder of the season, and he would eventually be traded away to the Chicago Bulls this past October. So much for taking flight under Kidd, right?

https://www.phillyvoice.com/one-year-later-looking-back-michael-carter-williams-trade/

Trading Carter-Williams at least seems like it was the right move. The Bucks stumbled into the playoffs at the end of last season and they have the fifth worst point differential in the league to go with a 22-32 record in 2015-16. Windhorst and Marc Stein report that Carter-Williams is “undeniably gettable” at the deadline. Zach Lowe said the Bucks “remain unconvinced” that MCW is the long-term answer at point guard.

The Bucks have been slightly better on both ends of the floor with Carter-Williams on the court this year, but the poor shooting is still a big problem. MCW is shooting 29 percent from three-point range and 66 percent from the free-throw line. At 24 years old, Carter-Williams making major improvements in those areas starts to become a tougher sell. Not impossible, but not necessarily likely either.

*****

While a team won't know what a player will fully be until the All Star break of his third full season ( barring major injury or some other bizarre circumstance limiting playing time like off the court troubles), they will generally understand if the prospect in question can make it in the NBA long term or not.

A) This is a legit NBA player who helps you win basketball games, we just don't know if he will hit his ceiling

or

B) This is not a legit NBA player and sadly just a warm body to fill the roster, his best upside is as a journeyman if he's lucky

There are just some careers where it's clear a young newcomer will make it in that industry very early or not. This is no longer a question of how good will Obi Toppin will be, this is now a question on if he will be able to stay on a roster once his "rookie shine" wears off. I keep hearing how good he will be JUST IF the Knicks do this, get that, change this, adjust that, tweak this, modify that and on and on and on and on.

Let's not mince this anymore - If you give Toppin 25-30-35 minutes a night, especially for a Defense First/Defense Always hardass coach like Thibs, then Good Old Tom will pull his hair out. Toppin might give you 15 points a night and a highlight reel alley oop dunk every 3 games. But he's giving up 50 points a night as a walking turnstile on defense. Close to none of you are pointing out nor accepting that Toppin has no real defensive position that fits the modern game and that you can't win basketball games if you are coughing up points by the metric ton with a shaky team defense.

You don't magically become a league average defender in one offseason from starting as an Orange Traffic Cone

You don't magically develop an above average consistent 3 point shot in one offseason.

You don't magically learn to create your own shot in the NBA in one offseason

You don't magically develop functional footwork or develop a league average handle in one offseason.

Toppin was marketed as "pro ready" and what is he now? Two years away from being two years away? That makes the Knicks a glorified farm team and frankly they can't afford to be a farm team with decades of woe just past them.

Trading Toppin now is a Stop Loss. In the same way that Hinkie, with gigantic balls no doubt, traded MCW when he recognized the player he had, not the player he wanted MCW to be.

Leon Rose made a lot of good decisions in his first year. This is not one of them. Part of being a good leader is knowing when to recognize and move past a mistake. This is how Bill Belichick and Billy Beane have survived so long in professional sports.

VDesai wrote:Noel was a defensive machine in the regular season because of his court coverage and shotblocking, but against Atlanta they took advantage of that by tossing lobs and floaters over him. Then on offense they doubled off him or had Capela play a spy on Randle because he wasn't a threat to knock down a 12 footer. Durability will also always be an issue with him. That said, to me he is a fantastic player and a real reason why the team was so good defensively, so its a tough call. In like 20 total minutes Norvel Pelle looked like a pretty interesting poor man's approximation of Noel, but you can't really bank on that...

We should try to get an asset for S&T him. Who I don’t know but more than signing him letting him walk for nothing would be the most regrettable thing. He’s talented but too talented to pay him the reserve salary his game deserves.

fishmike wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Obi i would still move in the right deal simply because he's stuck behind our best player. But no doubt Randle, Barrett, IQ, Obi, and Mitch are our core until proven otherwise.

it would be such a sell low... he could be a monster. He's so long, fast and athletic. He works so hard and the coaching staff had him purely focused on doing the team stuff first. Its not gonna be long before he's good at those things he's shown improvement on (defense, handle, boxing out, not going for head fakes) AND he starts looking for his own shot watch out. I suspect its next year at some point. I really hope we wait and see

Obi’s trade value might be higher than you think. Yeah he’s buried behind Randle and the know nothing media bashed the pick but he played well in the playoffs and GMs of teams like the blazers know more than a clown like Max Kellerman