BRIGGS wrote:It’s ridiculous to keep him. He’s really lost his chance here but I have to think we can swap prospects or even better. Trade him for a future 2. But he’s taking a roster spot that’s valuable to the team and we have no intent on using him.

Now, if someone makes an interesting offer for Knox you obviously consider it, but I'm not on board just giving him away for relatively nothing.

#21 and Knox to the Pelicans for Bledsoe and #10 makes a lot of sense for both sides. He might get some regular playing time on that squad.

BRIGGS wrote:It’s ridiculous to keep him. He’s really lost his chance here but I have to think we can swap prospects or even better. Trade him for a future 2. But he’s taking a roster spot that’s valuable to the team and we have no intent on using him.

"WE HAVE NO INTENT ON USING HIM"......While I agree his rotaton inclusion is far from being its a bit presumptive to know "Knicks intent". Its "his lack of minutes this season COULD be indicative of his future". Thats pretty freaking obvious. Are there are other factors?:

1. after draft and free agency what is a path to his minutes?
2. If not clear, his agent might insist a move to a team that perhaps has shown an opoprtunitsic path.
3. Kenny Payne is not on my speed dial. Given his history with the kid i'd put more credence on his take than anyone here.
4. Logical he is not a sigular issue for trade as depicted by briggs. He is likely part of a trade as sweetener. He is a still a prospect at some level.

Tell me what I don't know. Does the coaching staff feel he is close to getting to the next level? Have thy done enough compression checks to label his motor as unfixable? Is he too mentally focused on defense, his stides to basket, moving without the ball that he can't let the game "come to him"? If so, whats the next move? If he is not deemed a starter, can he still find minutes as a bench player either here or else where?

Im not holding out any great hope that he is the next great success story but as long as he is on our roster Im hoping he can succeed for us.

Welpee wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Welpee wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:It’s ridiculous to keep him. He’s really lost his chance here but I have to think we can swap prospects or even better. Trade him for a future 2. But he’s taking a roster spot that’s valuable to the team and we have no intent on using him.

As much as a I dislike Knox, I would rather hold on to him and roll the dice on getting some production out of him rather than just give him away for a likely useless 2nd round pick. If it doesn't work out just let him walk as a free agent. We already have a boatload of 2nd round picks.

Now, if someone makes an interesting offer for Knox you obviously consider it, but I'm not on board just giving him away for relatively nothing.

two night s ago
players
PJ Tucker pick 37
Kris middelton pick 39
Bryn Forbes udfa
Pat Connegun pick 41

I dont agree when someone says 2nd rounders are useless. Its a lazy team that does

1) Which is why I said "likely" useless.
2) None of the players you mentioned are playing for the teams that drafted them. So if we focus on the examples you gave, even if the player selected in the 2nd round who ended up being productive players, it's unlikely the team that drafted them will be the beneficiaries.
3) As I mentioned, we already have a ton of 2nd round picks we aren't going to be able to use other than as trade assets.
4) We invested the #8 pick in the draft and we flip him for a 2nd round pick? I would rather give him one more year. HIGHLY unlikely we would get anyone in the 2nd round better than even a disappointing Kevin Knox.

Cap space and pick. Also give player a different chance. Thibs does not want to use knox

BRIGGS wrote:It’s ridiculous to keep him. He’s really lost his chance here but I have to think we can swap prospects or even better. Trade him for a future 2. But he’s taking a roster spot that’s valuable to the team and we have no intent on using him.

Knox highlights some functional problems with the Rookie Scale Exception ( Frank Ntilikina also applies to this) The RSE was designed to fix the old system ( during the Glenn Robinson days) where rookies were given extremely long deals that essentially vested them into their pensions without proving a single thing in the league. Also the pay scale was not in line with market forces at work. ( The NFL had the same problem until they pushed forward their own rookie scale)

The balance is the NBPA want players to get their freedom as soon as possible. So their 2nd contract becomes more in line with market value. The faster you get to your 2nd contract, if you are productive, the better for your total career earnings potential. The owners want some cost certainty and cost control because they don't want to snowball the number of players earning an NBA pension and garner lifetime benefits, esp for fringe players who don't help a team win, and they need mechanisms to reward teams who draft well (Homegrown players who succeed and stay long term are the most consistent barn raisers for overall franchise valuation in the league. Steph Curry alone raises the valuation of the GSW by half a billion dollars just by himself. )

Owners want proven commodities before they invest max money and players and agents want freedom towards that 2nd contract as fast as possible. The 3rd and 4th year team option years for first round picks were designed to allow teams to jettison rookies who clearly busted and did so very soon. The problem becomes a busted first round pick often becomes too useless to help your team win, but too useful to actually cut since the player exists under cost control and under an actual exception.

If a team traded for Knox, can he help them win now? No, if that was true, the Knicks wouldn't want to trade him. If he pans out sort of, now they gave up an asset, the value of that roster spot he took, the value of the cap space implied ( 6 million) the value of the minutes he took, the value of the coaching he took, and now the team is faced with his qualifying offer ( 8 million) To make him cost effective, the new team would have to renounce his rights. Thus losing his valuable full Bird Rights, which hampers all flexibility. Also when you renounce a player, it's like a gigantic "Fuck You" to that players ego. Even if the player deserved it. Now why would he resign with you? This is the BEST CASE if he sort of pans out. Odds are he won't. ( He failed with his first team, what makes anyone think he will change everything now?)

So if a team is casually interested in Knox, why not wait another year, let him develop ( or not) under Thibs on the Knicks time and dime and roster space and cap space and coaching sweat and minutes, and if you want him, after the Knicks renounce him ( why would they keep him?), then come and get him at the young veteran's minimum

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2020/03/hoops-rumors-glossary-minimum-salary-exception-2.html

The MSE is an EXCEPTION, which is valuable, and the player is easily cut ( cash hit but not locked in cap hit) and the NBA pays a prorated portion of the player's salary ( cash savings)

Thus the most Knox would cost is about 2 million to a new team as a street free agent under the MSE. That's a long way from 8 million under his qualifying offer.

There is little to no incentive for other teams to trade for your busted first round picks. Teams can pay anywhere from 80-120 percent of a first round picks slotting but teams typically pay the full 120 standard. That 40 percent adds up when you want to jettison a busted player.

Rookie slotting went up as well. Part of the reason is because when Chris Paul , LBJ and Melo, running point on the players side of the NBPA, they wanted to change the Over 36 Rule to the Over 38 Rule to benefit themselves. So they simultaneously had to **** over all rookies ( you have to trade the owners something to get something back) but also force feed an increase in rookie slotting in exchange. Thus high lottery picks turn into MCC ( Middle Class Contracts) immediately, which was NOT the design of the RSE. Now a high lottery pick who busts is now an anchor on your cap. Melo ****ed over future generations of NBA players for a last shot long term big contract he never got. ( If you jab step 15 times and keep bricking, you won't get a big deal. Huge surprise right?) I mean ****ed over hard. I'm talking Shawshank Redemption when Boggs and the rest of his crew cornered Andy Dufresne in the laundry room.

And what do we know about MCCs? They are usually total cap poison.

The Knicks should want to trade Knox, but there is literally ZERO INCENTIVE by the league's current salary structure and CBA for any other team to do so.

How can he be traded? In the middle of larger 3-4 team deal where he's salary filler and roster filler. Much like Dennis Smith JR got traded to the Knicks. DSJr could not headline a trade on his own. Neither can Knox, and neither can Frank N.

A functional problem is rookie first round picks know they can get full retirement money and not give a ****. Frank N just doesn't give a ****. He's going to bank 18 ish million in career earnings and if he floats around as a journeyman for a few years, he can vest enough years and service time to get an NBA pension. So subtract taxes and so forth, Frank N has enough money, if he invests wisely and is careful, to never truly have to work again. And if he plays just long enough to get his pension, he can secure himself even further. Think about if you were in your mid 20s and had 10 million to start a business or invest or get into real estate or whatever else. Plus you have the fame and name recognition of a professional athlete.

The 2nd round is even worse in how it's applied versus the "intent" of how it was structured in the CBA. But that's a longer post for a different time.

There is true widespread systematic dysfunction the NBA's salary/compensation system. It didn't help that Paul/LBJ and Melo totally ****ed up the program even more for a personal cash grab. And thus there is more incentive for the Knicks to keep a functionally useless Knox than to get rid of him ( who do they replace him with? It's not that simple. It's not simple for a front office to jettison a former first round pick in his rookie contract and survive the local media and national sports media. The players agent will likely start all kinds of **** and drama in the press if a franchise did it, which is another problem. Shoe companies and agents being too empowered in the entire overall structure of the game itself. )

The same reason why the Knicks have and had no reason to want the last rookie year of an orange traffic cone like Wade Baldwin is the same reason why no other team has a reason to truly want Knox.

If you want Knox gone, the Knicks need to get into a huge 3-4 team trade. That's pretty much it.

Welpee wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:It’s ridiculous to keep him. He’s really lost his chance here but I have to think we can swap prospects or even better. Trade him for a future 2. But he’s taking a roster spot that’s valuable to the team and we have no intent on using him.

As much as a I dislike Knox, I would rather hold on to him and roll the dice on getting some production out of him rather than just give him away for a likely useless 2nd round pick. If it doesn't work out just let him walk as a free agent. We already have a boatload of 2nd round picks.

Now, if someone makes an interesting offer for Knox you obviously consider it, but I'm not on board just giving him away for relatively nothing.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/new-york-knicks/kevin-knox-26975/

Lu Dort's first year in the league, prorated for the pandemic situation, was about 155K

De'Anthony Melton was the 46th overall pick in his draft class, his first year he made 950K

Dorian Finney-Smith's first year in the league was about 550K

IIRC, Dort and DFS were UDFAs. Only Melton got some guaranteed money and not much.

1/4th of a Dort or a Melton and 1/2 of a Finney-Smith, in terms of actual production, even back then, was and is still more productive than Knox at 6 million.

If the Knicks are able to trade Knox and get rid of his salary without being forced to take any back, that's up to 5 million in cap clearance. Also the roster spot, and the minutes, and just getting his limbo vibe off the roster and out of your locker room. That's added onto the value of a late 2nd pick. And you might find someone hungry and committed like a Dort or a Melton or a Finney Smith, who will burn it all day and all night to get better.

What production? Knox has some interesting tools. But he's actually very unskilled. He's also lazy and a low BBIQ player. If you try your hardest and you fail, well then you just suck at basketball. No one can blame you for giving all you had and it's just not enough. However if you don't try your hardest and you fail, then you are a total and complete piece of ****. If you fail, then fail hard. Fail with blood on your hands and give everything you have to the Basketball Gods.

I can forgive Knox for being bad at professional basketball. I can't forgive the lazy part. You know what would help Charles Oakley heal with this franchise? Give him a job. Every time he sees Knox lolly gag and stroll around when he should be busting his ass on the court, then Oakley should walk up and punch the kid in the face. That would solve a lot of ****ing problems with the issue of effort with some of the roster.

There is no such thing as a useless asset. You can do something with it. Louis Labeyrie even had some value. He could have turned a trade proposal into a legal trade just by his player rights. In another universe, where the Pistons just wanted to dump Rose and his contract, the Knicks could have sent someone like Labeyrie and his rights, to be immediately cut by the Pistons, for eating the contract of Rose.

Or maybe you get a Finney Smith.

No one is "giving away" Knox. If I "gave you" my big screen TV, well that TV has value. You just didn't give me cash or some other consideration for it. Knox has no value on his own. He's protected by the league's ****ed up salary structure and the bastardization of the RSE. Someone like Knox is actually thrown away. The wrapper of the candy bar you just ate goes in the trash. If I want it, I have to dig in your trash can. That's not you giving it to me, that's you throwing someone away and me picking it up. That's Knox. He's a used empty wrapper and maybe someone will dig through the trash ( back end of Tier 5 of free agency next year) and grab him.

I fail to understand how you can call a late 2nd "useless" but not do so for a total and completely shameless slug like Knox.

Knox is not a professional basketball player. He's a grossly overpaid jogger. Watch him coast game after game and do a light little run up and down the court while playing like a total *******. Has anyone ever seen this kid actually and truly bust his ass in a game?

Wearing that Knicks jersey should mean something. It should be an honor to wear it. You should have to live up to what it means to be a part of this franchise. If someone wants to call me a Knox hater because I don't abide by lazy mother****ers, then so be it.

TheGame wrote:It still is not clear to me if Kevin Knox is a solid young player with potential that we just underused or a below average player who is not worth being in the rotation. I suspect that if he went to a team that gave him 20 minutes a game, he probably would produce at a decent rate but at this point, I think the Knicks should just trade him to some team like Orlando or Houston if we could get a high second round pick for him. I hope that we can package him with the 19th pick and move up 3-5 spots.

Had high hopes for him before the 2018 season. I wanted Bridges but Calipari had such high praise for him and I remembered him going on like crazy praising an 18 year old Kobe Bryant and no one should underestimate him just because he didn’t play in college. He looked really good that summer league on offense and also played really well first couple months of that season

I don’t know if Fiz ruined him or he was asked to do too much his rookie year or both. And then we drafted RJ who plays the same position and hired a defensive coach and Knox doesn’t play D

He can still shoot the ball, he needs to work with someone whose really in the gym this summer. He's 21 and would be finishing college soon. Any reason we give Obi the benefit of the doubt at 23 and he has limited skills aside from hustling. There are a few cases of guys putting it together. Let him stay on the bench and cheer for now until something interesting comes up.

Welpee wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

TheGame wrote:It still is not clear to me if Kevin Knox is a solid young player with potential that we just underused or a below average player who is not worth being in the rotation. I suspect that if he went to a team that gave him 20 minutes a game, he probably would produce at a decent rate but at this point, I think the Knicks should just trade him to some team like Orlando or Houston if we could get a high second round pick for him. I hope that we can package him with the 19th pick and move up 3-5 spots.

Had high hopes for him before the 2018 season. I wanted Bridges but Calipari had such high praise for him and I remembered him going on like crazy praising an 18 year old Kobe Bryant and no one should underestimate him just because he didn’t play in college. He looked really good that summer league on offense and also played really well first couple months of that season

I don’t know if Fiz ruined him or he was asked to do too much his rookie year or both. And then we drafted RJ who plays the same position and hired a defensive coach and Knox doesn’t play D

He and RJ don't play the same position. I'm not sure you can blame Fiz on his lack of development. The question about Knox coming out of college involved his lack of motor and that has proven to be true so far. I can't think of too many players who developed a motor after becoming pro (I'm sure there are some examples). However, if all we can get in return for Knox is a 2nd round pick lets continue to work with him for another year. Now, if we need to include him in a deal for a player we need all bets are off.

I just don’t see Thibs ever warming up to him. Knox is a DSJ-esque liability on defense. It’s incredible how good he is at running the floor north/south but he has zero lateral quickness

I would try to use him in a package for someone like Ball or Lillard