PG - Elfrid Payton - He is outperforming his contract. His issue is a bit of inconsistency on offense and a bit of a weak outside shot. His assist numbers are down, most likely due to the offense running through Randle. Arguably on court due to the fact that he is the best PG defender that is healthy. While he has years of synergy with Randle, I question whether he “fits” with Barrett, Randle and a healthy Robinson. I am looking for an upgrade, not because I don’t want EP on the team, but I think a championship squad needs a little more than EP brings to the table from the PG position.

SG - RJ Barrett - Barrett is underperforming my high expectations. Only his second season and last year’s abbreviated season ended a bit too soon. He has shown flashes of brilliance, but he has made less FT attempts per game this year, which, again, may be a function of the ball running through Randle more. Not a strong outside shooter, one might say his odds of improving an outside shot are higher than Payton’s. But, in this eFG based NBA, he either needs to get to the stripe more or shoot from behind the arc better. Might be small sample set, but he seems to be holding his own on defense. Good rebound numbers as well. Often looking for an assist as the secondary ball handler.

SF — Reggie Bullock - Also outperforming his contract. A bit of a streaky shooter but the anchor of the Knicks perimeter defense. “Outperforming his contract” on a early bird contract is an amazing thing. Don’t write it off. As the Knicks enter the offseason, his cap hold will be a low $4.2mm which they should account for when looking to add bigger name FAs. These one year low contracts do not take up a lot of space and can be re-signed closer to market value by going over the cap. These contracts are valuable both now as we approach the trade deadline and this coming offseason as we fill in the roster.

PF — Julius Randle — At the beginning of the year, I had been looking to move Randle and his turnover problems for next to nothing. His first 5 or so games made me look silly. With the offense running through him, I see good assist numbers, low turnovers. He still forces some shots in a double teams. He is nearing All Star status but is certainly on the bubble. I think his defense has been a bit underrated this season as he has been locking down his position pretty well and rebounding at a high clip. His rebounds have improved next to Robinson this season. Surprisingly effective from 3. Very reasonable contract at 19mm with his current level of play.

C — Robinson - Breaks my heart that he injured his hand. He was putting in the work. I read a stat that he led the league in box outs. So, to some extent, while his rebounds were down a little, Randle and Barrett benefited from this. That’s team basketball. He wants to show his outside shot a bit more but is anchored (shackled) to the paint. Unclear if the team will add some sets that allow him to roll out to the 3. Would see possible with bruisers Randle and Barrett on the court. Clearly the anchor of the defense. His contract is a gem. He should get paid, eventually, but unfortunately for him, his re-signing should be after the Knicks conclude their free agent hunt next year. That $1.9mm salary gives tremendous cap flexibility.

Rose - Not much to say here. Strong veteran presence for IQ and the other players. Low $7.1mm cap hold. I expect him and Thibs to finish their careers together. Not sure if he cracks the starting lineup, but he provides a strong backup 14/4 in 20 minutes.

IQ — A breathe of fresh air. He was getting a bit choked by the trap before they added Rose. His FT shooting is elite and will punish teams down the stretch. His 3pt shooting is great, I find his shot selection to be a little murky, but always happy when he hits. I am most excited to see him continue to grow.

Burks - Has played quite well off the bench as a scorer. Decent contract value. I would probably accept a trade for draft compensation if the Knicks determined they were no longer in contention this year. Not because he hasn’t been wonderful, but simply because he is replaceable.

Toppin — At the beginning of the season, I thought Toppin heralded Randle’s departure from NY. Thibs is taking it slow with him, but I see him improving in his few minutes. Love his leaping.

Noel - I think this guy gets a bad rap for no reason. I consider him the perfect backup to Robinson and as he steps up, he does his role well at a low price. His 5mm contract is a bargain. I’d accept his cap hold next offseason and lock him up for a few more years. I would not cry that he can’t shoot threes. His value is defense off the bench.

Ntlikina. Not sure if he hasn’t been healthy or if they are using excuses. Seems like his tenure in NY is nearing its end. Was hoping he would get a shot at the starting lineup. I still see a Patrick Beverley in him. I wish the Knicks were the ones to unlock this.

Knox - for me, this is just odd man out of the rotation. I like what I see from Knox. He is young, low priced and seems to be willing to play a role. He may never be Kevin Durant. But I think his upside is much higher than bench player. He needs to earn his minutes from the guys in front of him. That SF position is probably not available to him with his footwork. That leaves him stuck behind both Randle and Toppin right now for PF minutes. He needs to keep working and I think good things will come.

Overall, I don’t see anyone “untouchable” on this roster, but I certainly think that the team is better than any individual player. If they can add offense points per 100 without messing up their D, this would be the way to improve. That can be internally, by Barrett stepping up his efficiency (read - less mid range jumpers) or by upgrading PG and SF without giving up D.

The Knicks are in a great position to do that this offseason while chasing a couple superstars but settling for incremental growth through free agency and the draft.

Otherwise very spot on. Honestly my only quibble with the roster has been Frank not seeing daylight, and there may be more to that than is revealed.

GustavBahler wrote:Disagree about RJ underperforming. I see his numbers through the lens of where Barrett was picked in the draft. He's right where he should be maybe a little better. His numbers should get better when the starting lineup has more or less solidified.

RJ has done a great job of staying focused through the usual Knicks drama, a pandemic. New and demanding coach. Already his third. Believe we should be more patient.

https://www.82games.com/nbadraftpicks.htm

Randle and Quickley have been the revelations here. Randle has become a star just entering his prime and Quickley shows major promise. Randle, Barrett, and Quickley are our most important players going forward, that much is clear this year. If this team can develop into a real playoff team at some point, it will be because of their development.

GustavBahler wrote:Disagree about RJ underperforming. I see his numbers through the lens of where Barrett was picked in the draft. He's right where he should be maybe a little better. His numbers should get better when the starting lineup has more or less solidified.

RJ has done a great job of staying focused through the usual Knicks drama, a pandemic. New and demanding coach. Already his third. Believe we should be more patient.

https://www.82games.com/nbadraftpicks.htm

That statement was more about me than RJ. I had more Mamba in my head than Maple. I think the Knicks could do a little better putting him in a position to succeed like adding floor spacing and letting the ball flow through him a bit more. But the comment about eFG is real. From the wing, I think we need a bit more efficiency than he is currently providing. I am hopeful he can develop that, but I am certainly staring at it every game...

EwingsGlass wrote:

Nalod wrote:All good takes.
OP says he had high expectations about RJ justifying his comments.
To me, RJ and Knox keep getting the bar moved higher which messes with them. Knox obviously was not ready for the NBA but would not know this coming out. None of us really know what becomes of him.
Seems like once RJ hits a nice run we try to add something, or he willingly adds something and it sets him back. He has demonstrated from day one a special resiliency to taking his lumps then exceeding the moment. Thus, I too have high hopes for him and when you consider he is just 20 its remarkable. He is built for this. Knox while a good pedigree from his dad as a pro athlete perhaps was not and had work to do.
We forget how crushing the pressure is on these kids.
Which leads us to Frank. Kid had a 4-4 3pt night a game or so before he got hurt. Not saying he was about to break out but he does so many good things already the focus on his deficiencies perhaps jades our view. What we don’t know is really what is the long term view on him and his value. Obviously we are a win now organization and implementing DRose demonstrates this.

I’ll say that Thibs is developing the youth not by giving them minutes but dragging them into the fire and if they can’t handle it then the next guy up will. If not they will get another chance. Franks contract might dictate his time is up and we might just miss his window. Thing is if we do the same thing over the years (AKA: Build a Culture) we will miss on some kids, but we’ll make good on others. This is the third FO in Frank’s tenure here. Sometimes its just being in the right place at the right time. Or visa versa.

So, do you make a QO on Frank Ntlikina at 8.3MM? I honestly might, depending what the word on the street is in free agency and how he finishes this year. I really believe my own Patrick Beverley analogy ($12m per comparatively) and if healthy, I think FN has all the tools to take the starting job from Elf. I'm not at practices or near the game enough to know how he fits with the coaching staff, but that length and that skill set could still be productive. For me, it comes down to whether Ntlikina can crack the rotation with the guards currently in front of him.

I think his offer will be in-line with some of the others on the roster right now, and they tend toward market value. ~ $7M

EwingsGlass wrote:

Nalod wrote:All good takes.
OP says he had high expectations about RJ justifying his comments.
To me, RJ and Knox keep getting the bar moved higher which messes with them. Knox obviously was not ready for the NBA but would not know this coming out. None of us really know what becomes of him.
Seems like once RJ hits a nice run we try to add something, or he willingly adds something and it sets him back. He has demonstrated from day one a special resiliency to taking his lumps then exceeding the moment. Thus, I too have high hopes for him and when you consider he is just 20 its remarkable. He is built for this. Knox while a good pedigree from his dad as a pro athlete perhaps was not and had work to do.
We forget how crushing the pressure is on these kids.
Which leads us to Frank. Kid had a 4-4 3pt night a game or so before he got hurt. Not saying he was about to break out but he does so many good things already the focus on his deficiencies perhaps jades our view. What we don’t know is really what is the long term view on him and his value. Obviously we are a win now organization and implementing DRose demonstrates this.

I’ll say that Thibs is developing the youth not by giving them minutes but dragging them into the fire and if they can’t handle it then the next guy up will. If not they will get another chance. Franks contract might dictate his time is up and we might just miss his window. Thing is if we do the same thing over the years (AKA: Build a Culture) we will miss on some kids, but we’ll make good on others. This is the third FO in Frank’s tenure here. Sometimes its just being in the right place at the right time. Or visa versa.

So, do you make a QO on Frank Ntlikina at 8.3MM? I honestly might, depending what the word on the street is in free agency and how he finishes this year. I really believe my own Patrick Beverley analogy ($12m per comparatively) and if healthy, I think FN has all the tools to take the starting job from Elf. I'm not at practices or near the game enough to know how he fits with the coaching staff, but that length and that skill set could still be productive. For me, it comes down to whether Ntlikina can crack the rotation with the guards currently in front of him.

Frank has the tools to surpass Elf, but not Quickley and Rose. Frank is #4 on the PG depth chart essentially. I think the Frank hope is coming to an end. The problem is even if he's good enough, he is never healthy to be ready when the opportunity presents itself. He is neither established nor consistently available. Not to say he can't remain here as a depth piece, he's definitely an NBA player and good defensive combo guard. I'll happily resign him on 1-year deals. But i don't see a path to ever being a rotation player here.

knicks1248 wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Disagree about RJ underperforming. I see his numbers through the lens of where Barrett was picked in the draft. He's right where he should be maybe a little better. His numbers should get better when the starting lineup has more or less solidified.

RJ has done a great job of staying focused through the usual Knicks drama, a pandemic. New and demanding coach. Already his third. Believe we should be more patient.

https://www.82games.com/nbadraftpicks.htm

That statement was more about me than RJ. I had more Mamba in my head than Maple. I think the Knicks could do a little better putting him in a position to succeed like adding floor spacing and letting the ball flow through him a bit more. But the comment about eFG is real. From the wing, I think we need a bit more efficiency than he is currently providing. I am hopeful he can develop that, but I am certainly staring at it every game...

How about all those minutes he's playing is probably catching up to him.

Could be a part of it.

EwingsGlass wrote:

Nalod wrote:All good takes.
OP says he had high expectations about RJ justifying his comments.
To me, RJ and Knox keep getting the bar moved higher which messes with them. Knox obviously was not ready for the NBA but would not know this coming out. None of us really know what becomes of him.
Seems like once RJ hits a nice run we try to add something, or he willingly adds something and it sets him back. He has demonstrated from day one a special resiliency to taking his lumps then exceeding the moment. Thus, I too have high hopes for him and when you consider he is just 20 its remarkable. He is built for this. Knox while a good pedigree from his dad as a pro athlete perhaps was not and had work to do.
We forget how crushing the pressure is on these kids.
Which leads us to Frank. Kid had a 4-4 3pt night a game or so before he got hurt. Not saying he was about to break out but he does so many good things already the focus on his deficiencies perhaps jades our view. What we don’t know is really what is the long term view on him and his value. Obviously we are a win now organization and implementing DRose demonstrates this.

I’ll say that Thibs is developing the youth not by giving them minutes but dragging them into the fire and if they can’t handle it then the next guy up will. If not they will get another chance. Franks contract might dictate his time is up and we might just miss his window. Thing is if we do the same thing over the years (AKA: Build a Culture) we will miss on some kids, but we’ll make good on others. This is the third FO in Frank’s tenure here. Sometimes its just being in the right place at the right time. Or visa versa.

So, do you make a QO on Frank Ntlikina at 8.3MM? I honestly might, depending what the word on the street is in free agency and how he finishes this year. I really believe my own Patrick Beverley analogy ($12m per comparatively) and if healthy, I think FN has all the tools to take the starting job from Elf. I'm not at practices or near the game enough to know how he fits with the coaching staff, but that length and that skill set could still be productive. For me, it comes down to whether Ntlikina can crack the rotation with the guards currently in front of him.

I think there so much into valuing him it is had for me to really know. I would suspect for him its not just Money but a team commitment to a path for him. Do we value him long term? What do we project hm to be? Doe he fancy himself as reported as stubborn and only a PG? Was this in reaction to the many FO’s we had here and he is on his 4t coach in as many seasons?
As for market value he’d do well to test Free agency and perhaps a team like the jazz offer him a 3 year deal with a near promise of playing back up to conley. Money matters but so does commitment to him and him to a team.
Perhaps we see him as. Combo “igudala/Smart” type guard that can fill many roles at offer a commitment.
Thing is at this moment he has no role. My take is he has some value as part of a bigger trade. Not a surprise or a stretch to think that given he is sitting on the bench.
More about what Perrin, Perry, Bryant, Payne, and Thibs think about his future. Not that Leon was his agent in the past.

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

Nalod wrote:All good takes.
OP says he had high expectations about RJ justifying his comments.
To me, RJ and Knox keep getting the bar moved higher which messes with them. Knox obviously was not ready for the NBA but would not know this coming out. None of us really know what becomes of him.
Seems like once RJ hits a nice run we try to add something, or he willingly adds something and it sets him back. He has demonstrated from day one a special resiliency to taking his lumps then exceeding the moment. Thus, I too have high hopes for him and when you consider he is just 20 its remarkable. He is built for this. Knox while a good pedigree from his dad as a pro athlete perhaps was not and had work to do.
We forget how crushing the pressure is on these kids.
Which leads us to Frank. Kid had a 4-4 3pt night a game or so before he got hurt. Not saying he was about to break out but he does so many good things already the focus on his deficiencies perhaps jades our view. What we don’t know is really what is the long term view on him and his value. Obviously we are a win now organization and implementing DRose demonstrates this.

I’ll say that Thibs is developing the youth not by giving them minutes but dragging them into the fire and if they can’t handle it then the next guy up will. If not they will get another chance. Franks contract might dictate his time is up and we might just miss his window. Thing is if we do the same thing over the years (AKA: Build a Culture) we will miss on some kids, but we’ll make good on others. This is the third FO in Frank’s tenure here. Sometimes its just being in the right place at the right time. Or visa versa.

So, do you make a QO on Frank Ntlikina at 8.3MM? I honestly might, depending what the word on the street is in free agency and how he finishes this year. I really believe my own Patrick Beverley analogy ($12m per comparatively) and if healthy, I think FN has all the tools to take the starting job from Elf. I'm not at practices or near the game enough to know how he fits with the coaching staff, but that length and that skill set could still be productive. For me, it comes down to whether Ntlikina can crack the rotation with the guards currently in front of him.

Frank has the tools to surpass Elf, but not Quickley and Rose. Frank is #4 on the PG depth chart essentially. I think the Frank hope is coming to an end. The problem is even if he's good enough, he is never healthy to be ready when the opportunity presents itself. He is neither established nor consistently available. Not to say he can't remain here as a depth piece, he's definitely an NBA player and good defensive combo guard. I'll happily resign him on 1-year deals. But i don't see a path to ever being a rotation player here.

You would happily re-sign him..For what..to sit on the bench and collect a check...I would rather re-sign J lin

This kid doesn't even want to do himself any favors with a few wks down in the G league to show what he's got..Frank is officially one of the biggest Draft bust in knicks History.

Since you have positioned yourself as an obvious expert on this, please let us know when would be the right time for Frank to go to the GLeauge this year and at what benefit?

When he was hurt? When he was recovering? Or when he has been in COVID protocol?

At this point it doesn't even matter, he's pretty much irrelevant and his knicks future is very much in doubt. At the end of the day It's obviously his choice to either go to the G league or ask for a trade.

To think Thibs is going to go to leon and ask him to invest more time and money into frank at any cost is about as far fetch as you can get

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

Nalod wrote:All good takes.
OP says he had high expectations about RJ justifying his comments.
To me, RJ and Knox keep getting the bar moved higher which messes with them. Knox obviously was not ready for the NBA but would not know this coming out. None of us really know what becomes of him.
Seems like once RJ hits a nice run we try to add something, or he willingly adds something and it sets him back. He has demonstrated from day one a special resiliency to taking his lumps then exceeding the moment. Thus, I too have high hopes for him and when you consider he is just 20 its remarkable. He is built for this. Knox while a good pedigree from his dad as a pro athlete perhaps was not and had work to do.
We forget how crushing the pressure is on these kids.
Which leads us to Frank. Kid had a 4-4 3pt night a game or so before he got hurt. Not saying he was about to break out but he does so many good things already the focus on his deficiencies perhaps jades our view. What we don’t know is really what is the long term view on him and his value. Obviously we are a win now organization and implementing DRose demonstrates this.

I’ll say that Thibs is developing the youth not by giving them minutes but dragging them into the fire and if they can’t handle it then the next guy up will. If not they will get another chance. Franks contract might dictate his time is up and we might just miss his window. Thing is if we do the same thing over the years (AKA: Build a Culture) we will miss on some kids, but we’ll make good on others. This is the third FO in Frank’s tenure here. Sometimes its just being in the right place at the right time. Or visa versa.

So, do you make a QO on Frank Ntlikina at 8.3MM? I honestly might, depending what the word on the street is in free agency and how he finishes this year. I really believe my own Patrick Beverley analogy ($12m per comparatively) and if healthy, I think FN has all the tools to take the starting job from Elf. I'm not at practices or near the game enough to know how he fits with the coaching staff, but that length and that skill set could still be productive. For me, it comes down to whether Ntlikina can crack the rotation with the guards currently in front of him.

Frank has the tools to surpass Elf, but not Quickley and Rose. Frank is #4 on the PG depth chart essentially. I think the Frank hope is coming to an end. The problem is even if he's good enough, he is never healthy to be ready when the opportunity presents itself. He is neither established nor consistently available. Not to say he can't remain here as a depth piece, he's definitely an NBA player and good defensive combo guard. I'll happily resign him on 1-year deals. But i don't see a path to ever being a rotation player here.

You would happily re-sign him..For what..to sit on the bench and collect a check...I would rather re-sign J lin

This kid doesn't even want to do himself any favors with a few wks down in the G league to show what he's got..Frank is officially one of the biggest Draft bust in knicks History.

Since you have positioned yourself as an obvious expert on this, please let us know when would be the right time for Frank to go to the GLeauge this year and at what benefit?

When he was hurt? When he was recovering? Or when he has been in COVID protocol?

At this point it doesn't even matter, he's pretty much irrelevant and his knicks future is very much in doubt. At the end of the day It's obviously his choice to either go to the G league or ask for a trade.

To think Thibs is going to go to leon and ask him to invest more time and money into frank at any cost is about as far fetch as you can get

Frankly, at this point your take on what happens or could happen to Frank is irrelevant. Nice dodge though