martin wrote:

Uptown wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Uptown wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Uptown wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Sambakick wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

Sambakick wrote:

TPercy wrote:We need a PG who can shoot in the worst way.

We do have one who shoots the worst way.

Referring to the one with 20 points, 8 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 TO tonight?

Yes. And i'm an Elf supporter. He has played exactly one good game in the last seven games.

He can be a very solid backup though.

Until Quickley is ready, have to take the good and the bad. Payton plays good D as well.

In these 20 plus games, Quickly has shown more as rookie than any other Knick rookie has since Mark Jackson! We are a fringe playoff team at best, so what are we waiting for? Payton is on a 1 year deal and most likely is not apart of the future. Quick should be allowed to play with and develop alongside RJ, Mitch and Randle who look like they will all be apart of the future of this team moving forward. Payton and his good D can come off the bench...

Here's the problem with Payton starting. Payton has a good game last night (good 1st quarter, so much after) and he's rewarded with 35 mins....Quick explodes for 25 and 31 and can barely crack 25 mins...The leash is a lot longer for Payton because he's a vet and because he starts. In the end, I knew this would be the case if we hired Thibs, riding the vets at the expense of Minutes for our young players (Knox DNP's) while we chase the 9th seed in the play-in games.

thats not fair. Coach is allowed to win games and is supposed to. Before last night ELF had 5 straight games where he didnt crack 25 minutes. Last night Thibs rode him and it was the right night to do so. As for Knox he's been bad. Look at his game logs. He's missing and the Knicks are in the negative every time he's on the floor.

Our vets are not very good, but they do things that the coach needs and he keeps the kids on the short leash when they fail to do those things. IQ has great scoring chops but he's still very raw and makes a lot of mistakes on both sides of the ball.

We are just past 20 games the results are pretty solid no? More wins, higher quality play, clear development from RJ/Mitch/Randle from last year and a 10 man rotation every night even if some of the young guys like Obi are getting token minutes.

Sometimes its good to let kids play through things... other times its clearly NOT. See Kevin Knox... did we do him any justice by just running him out there 30 minutes a night is rookie year? He may just end up being not a very good NBA player so who knows, but you have to let the coaches coach and do their thing also

What's the end-game? What are we trying to accomplish? Are we chasing the 9th or 10th seed for the play-in tournament? And are we doing so even if it means we have to sacrifice valuable playing time and development time for some of our young players for multiple games? It looks that way sometimes....

I'm hoping as we get further into the season we get a better balance of trying to win today verses developing and improving our team tomorrow. My problem is prioritizing journeymen who most likely wont be here next year, over guys who more than likely will be a part of our future moving forward. If we were currently the 4th or 5th seed, then I guess my argument wont hold much weight. But we are 10-13, currently 9th in the east which is almost equivalent to NBA purgatory.

RJ and Mitch have received consistent mins, and I am happy about that. It's one thing when you see Obi getting limited mins behind Randle who is putting up allstar numbers and may have played his way into our future plans and probably will force the front office to make a decision, but its another thing to see Knox collect DNP's behind a journeyman like Bullock while we chase the 8th seed. We know what Bullock is at this point in his NBA career, not sure if we know what 21 year Knox can and will be for us from the bench. I'm hoping this trend is short lived. Not saying Knox needs 30 mins like with Fiz, but there has to be a happy medium. Knox may turn out to be a journeymen just like Bullock, or even worse but its hard to tell from the bench.

And after what Quick has shown this year, there is no reason for him to only get 13 mins of playing time in any game. I just dont want to sacrifice valuable in-game development mins for Knox, Quick and even Obi to a lesser extent, in order to chase the 9th or 10th seed so we can get into the play-in tournament with journeymen that do not factor into our future plans.

How about you play the best basketball your team is capable of playing, and if you only made the 8th or 9th seed look at why. You act like if we cant win 50 we shouldnt win at all. At what point are young players held accountable? Knicks were 25-41 last year and often totally non competitive. This team is in it every night. The best guys are playing right now and they all look at the same tape. I love everything about IQ and I am great with him getting the quick hook for rushing poor shots, not closing out... the stuff that is going to get you pulled by this coach. He seems pretty demanding and pretty fair so far.

Endgame? Build a sustainable winning culture. Acquire star players hopefully and compete for a title. That "acquire" includes homegrown as well. So what if Bullock is an NBA journeyman? We dont have young talent better than that? The answer is right now no we dont.

The ISSUE is that Payton is the actually the best PG on the team right now, not the fact that Thibs is playing him. I understand your thought process... ELF is temporary and gets us no closer to our goal so why not play IQ. Thibs would say rushing IQ and playing undisciplined basketball is no way there either. Based on what I am seeing Thibs is earning my trust and benefit of the doubt. I hate Obi not getting a play called all year for him, but Thibs is Thibs

EVERYONE wanted Randle off the roster this offseason. Now he's underpaid and a tremendous asset. We have a LOT of young guys. I am all for making them beat out the NBA journeyman to get minutes. Earn it. Everyone on the team seems to know exactly what is expected of them. If we make the 8th seed its because we have 8th seed talent. Its only NBA purgatory when you are a team like Wash and are paying your backcourt $70mm. Knicks are all young guys with a couple vets and everyone is on a cheap deal. Thats not purgatory. Knicks are the most flexible team in the league right now. A little draft luck would be great.

First and foremost, I hope you are not reading into my words and assuming that I'm saying Thibs is not a good coach. Before we hired our coach this summer, I was on record saying Atkinson was my Number 1 guy because of his history with developing rosters and young talent. But I was also the one that said Thibs checks most of the boxes. Thibs is a really good coach, no question. He's done a really good job of giving us an identity, one that we have lacked for years. But as good as he is, he is not without his warts.

I agree that young players should be held accountable. Clearly, Thibs is holding his young players accountable as Knox has been pulled from the lineup, Obi gets a quick hook, and as well as Quick has played, we've seen him get a quick hook from time. It's also clear, that the vets have a longer leash than the younger players do.

We've watched Rivers go 5-26 from the field in 5 straight games before his first half explosion against Utah, then follow that up with 2-12 over the next 3. We also watch Rivers over dribble and massage the ball after coming off screens and instead of shooting as he's supposed to. Knox was benched for having such a stretch...you and I both know that Rivers aint getting pulled from the lineup. And lets not pretend like these "vets" that we have come with championship experience or allstar pedigree. Payton doesn't even have playoff experience.

Speaking of Payton, you and I can agree to disagree on Payton being a better pg for this current team. The one thing Payton used to do well and kept him in the league was his playmaking ability. He's averaging 3 asts per game which is half of his career average. Also, this playmaker is putting up more shots than he ever has and is shooting a career worse from the field. His numbers are down across the board. Of late, RJ and Randle have been initiating the offense while Payton has been playing off the ball more which isn't a weakness of his but a strength of Quickleys. One other thing to keep in mind, Payton is always on the court with Randle and RJ, which helps him a ton while Quick is usually on the floor with the 2nd unit. Quickley looked pretty good in the 4th quarter with RJ and Randle and finished with 16, 7 and 6.

Lastly, when I said purgatory, I was thinking of the Orlando Magic. Steve Clifford sat beside Thibs who sat beside Van Gundy so they are from the same coaching tree. Clifford, like Thibs, is a defensive-first culture builder. The Magic were a 7th seed his first year, 8th seed last year and sit 12th this year. Vucevic is a fringe all-star similar to the way Randle has performed this year....One thing I will say about Clifford...when he got the job, instead of handing the keys to the journeymen pg, Augustine, he gave the ball to the future pg right away in Fultz.

I'm going to be totally transparent here and say I would much rather have a favorable chance to land a top 5 pick in a draft that is one of the best in years as opposed to landing the 9th spot in the play-in tournament. The Orlando Magic are not the team I aspire us to be, battling for 7th and 8th seeds and missing the playoffs by several games for the next few years.

This summer, will be the third straight summer we will have massive cap space. I want to sign a star just as much as you do, but thats been a wish of ours for damn-near 30 years since we signed Houston. We outbid ourselves for Amare and he gave us a great half season before he became an absolute shell of himself....The free agent cupboard is bare this summer anyway and either this summer or next, we are going to have to make a decision on Randle.

We are also clear that offensive shooting numbers is probably only 1 of like 5 or 10 things Thibs and coaches are judging his players and their minutes on, right? Defense is probably first with general decision making up there too

For sure....There are numerous defensive metrics to use and many can get a bit confusing.....but according to Statmuse both Knox and Rivers have a defensive rating of 112. Rivers is averaging close to 2 turnovers a game while Knox is just below 1. I didn't bring up Rivers to compare him directly to Knox, but to point out the longer leash some of the vet-journeyman have over the younger players...It's not surprising though as Thibs is a win-now coach coaches each game like its game 7.

Now, to me the inexcusable part of Thibs’ coaching are the many times the game is out of reach where he doesn’t give players some burn. We obviously don’t know what happens in practice, so Thibs could be justified by situations exposed there, but Knox, for example, has been a guy that has shown willingness to learn. He has lots to learn yet, but he won’t improve if after trying his best he doesn’t even get playing time in a game out of reach.

I don’t hate Thibs. On the contrary. The fact that his impact has been felt so strongly and so quickly with this roster speaks to his capacity. In the end, right now, whatever he decides should be respected because he is there with the players when we can’t see what’s happening. But he does have a track record of overusing veteran starters and giving young players a tough time. This isn’t the team to do that. As important as it is to win, as important it is to teach the youth and let them play, especially whenever the game lets you do so.

Uptown wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Uptown wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Uptown wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Sambakick wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

Sambakick wrote:

TPercy wrote:We need a PG who can shoot in the worst way.

We do have one who shoots the worst way.

Referring to the one with 20 points, 8 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 TO tonight?

Yes. And i'm an Elf supporter. He has played exactly one good game in the last seven games.

He can be a very solid backup though.

Until Quickley is ready, have to take the good and the bad. Payton plays good D as well.

In these 20 plus games, Quickly has shown more as rookie than any other Knick rookie has since Mark Jackson! We are a fringe playoff team at best, so what are we waiting for? Payton is on a 1 year deal and most likely is not apart of the future. Quick should be allowed to play with and develop alongside RJ, Mitch and Randle who look like they will all be apart of the future of this team moving forward. Payton and his good D can come off the bench...

Here's the problem with Payton starting. Payton has a good game last night (good 1st quarter, so much after) and he's rewarded with 35 mins....Quick explodes for 25 and 31 and can barely crack 25 mins...The leash is a lot longer for Payton because he's a vet and because he starts. In the end, I knew this would be the case if we hired Thibs, riding the vets at the expense of Minutes for our young players (Knox DNP's) while we chase the 9th seed in the play-in games.

thats not fair. Coach is allowed to win games and is supposed to. Before last night ELF had 5 straight games where he didnt crack 25 minutes. Last night Thibs rode him and it was the right night to do so. As for Knox he's been bad. Look at his game logs. He's missing and the Knicks are in the negative every time he's on the floor.

Our vets are not very good, but they do things that the coach needs and he keeps the kids on the short leash when they fail to do those things. IQ has great scoring chops but he's still very raw and makes a lot of mistakes on both sides of the ball.

We are just past 20 games the results are pretty solid no? More wins, higher quality play, clear development from RJ/Mitch/Randle from last year and a 10 man rotation every night even if some of the young guys like Obi are getting token minutes.

Sometimes its good to let kids play through things... other times its clearly NOT. See Kevin Knox... did we do him any justice by just running him out there 30 minutes a night is rookie year? He may just end up being not a very good NBA player so who knows, but you have to let the coaches coach and do their thing also

What's the end-game? What are we trying to accomplish? Are we chasing the 9th or 10th seed for the play-in tournament? And are we doing so even if it means we have to sacrifice valuable playing time and development time for some of our young players for multiple games? It looks that way sometimes....

I'm hoping as we get further into the season we get a better balance of trying to win today verses developing and improving our team tomorrow. My problem is prioritizing journeymen who most likely wont be here next year, over guys who more than likely will be a part of our future moving forward. If we were currently the 4th or 5th seed, then I guess my argument wont hold much weight. But we are 10-13, currently 9th in the east which is almost equivalent to NBA purgatory.

RJ and Mitch have received consistent mins, and I am happy about that. It's one thing when you see Obi getting limited mins behind Randle who is putting up allstar numbers and may have played his way into our future plans and probably will force the front office to make a decision, but its another thing to see Knox collect DNP's behind a journeyman like Bullock while we chase the 8th seed. We know what Bullock is at this point in his NBA career, not sure if we know what 21 year Knox can and will be for us from the bench. I'm hoping this trend is short lived. Not saying Knox needs 30 mins like with Fiz, but there has to be a happy medium. Knox may turn out to be a journeymen just like Bullock, or even worse but its hard to tell from the bench.

And after what Quick has shown this year, there is no reason for him to only get 13 mins of playing time in any game. I just dont want to sacrifice valuable in-game development mins for Knox, Quick and even Obi to a lesser extent, in order to chase the 9th or 10th seed so we can get into the play-in tournament with journeymen that do not factor into our future plans.

How about you play the best basketball your team is capable of playing, and if you only made the 8th or 9th seed look at why. You act like if we cant win 50 we shouldnt win at all. At what point are young players held accountable? Knicks were 25-41 last year and often totally non competitive. This team is in it every night. The best guys are playing right now and they all look at the same tape. I love everything about IQ and I am great with him getting the quick hook for rushing poor shots, not closing out... the stuff that is going to get you pulled by this coach. He seems pretty demanding and pretty fair so far.

Endgame? Build a sustainable winning culture. Acquire star players hopefully and compete for a title. That "acquire" includes homegrown as well. So what if Bullock is an NBA journeyman? We dont have young talent better than that? The answer is right now no we dont.

The ISSUE is that Payton is the actually the best PG on the team right now, not the fact that Thibs is playing him. I understand your thought process... ELF is temporary and gets us no closer to our goal so why not play IQ. Thibs would say rushing IQ and playing undisciplined basketball is no way there either. Based on what I am seeing Thibs is earning my trust and benefit of the doubt. I hate Obi not getting a play called all year for him, but Thibs is Thibs

EVERYONE wanted Randle off the roster this offseason. Now he's underpaid and a tremendous asset. We have a LOT of young guys. I am all for making them beat out the NBA journeyman to get minutes. Earn it. Everyone on the team seems to know exactly what is expected of them. If we make the 8th seed its because we have 8th seed talent. Its only NBA purgatory when you are a team like Wash and are paying your backcourt $70mm. Knicks are all young guys with a couple vets and everyone is on a cheap deal. Thats not purgatory. Knicks are the most flexible team in the league right now. A little draft luck would be great.

First and foremost, I hope you are not reading into my words and assuming that I'm saying Thibs is not a good coach. Before we hired our coach this summer, I was on record saying Atkinson was my Number 1 guy because of his history with developing rosters and young talent. But I was also the one that said Thibs checks most of the boxes. Thibs is a really good coach, no question. He's done a really good job of giving us an identity, one that we have lacked for years. But as good as he is, he is not without his warts.

I agree that young players should be held accountable. Clearly, Thibs is holding his young players accountable as Knox has been pulled from the lineup, Obi gets a quick hook, and as well as Quick has played, we've seen him get a quick hook from time. It's also clear, that the vets have a longer leash than the younger players do.

We've watched Rivers go 5-26 from the field in 5 straight games before his first half explosion against Utah, then follow that up with 2-12 over the next 3. We also watch Rivers over dribble and massage the ball after coming off screens and instead of shooting as he's supposed to. Knox was benched for having such a stretch...you and I both know that Rivers aint getting pulled from the lineup. And lets not pretend like these "vets" that we have come with championship experience or allstar pedigree. Payton doesn't even have playoff experience.

Speaking of Payton, you and I can agree to disagree on Payton being a better pg for this current team. The one thing Payton used to do well and kept him in the league was his playmaking ability. He's averaging 3 asts per game which is half of his career average. Also, this playmaker is putting up more shots than he ever has and is shooting a career worse from the field. His numbers are down across the board. Of late, RJ and Randle have been initiating the offense while Payton has been playing off the ball more which isn't a weakness of his but a strength of Quickleys. One other thing to keep in mind, Payton is always on the court with Randle and RJ, which helps him a ton while Quick is usually on the floor with the 2nd unit. Quickley looked pretty good in the 4th quarter with RJ and Randle and finished with 16, 7 and 6.

Lastly, when I said purgatory, I was thinking of the Orlando Magic. Steve Clifford sat beside Thibs who sat beside Van Gundy so they are from the same coaching tree. Clifford, like Thibs, is a defensive-first culture builder. The Magic were a 7th seed his first year, 8th seed last year and sit 12th this year. Vucevic is a fringe all-star similar to the way Randle has performed this year....One thing I will say about Clifford...when he got the job, instead of handing the keys to the journeymen pg, Augustine, he gave the ball to the future pg right away in Fultz.

I'm going to be totally transparent here and say I would much rather have a favorable chance to land a top 5 pick in a draft that is one of the best in years as opposed to landing the 9th spot in the play-in tournament with Payton Bullock soaking stater minutes. The Orlando Magic are not the team I aspire us to be, battling for 7th and 8th seeds and missing the playoffs by several games for the next few years.

This summer, will be the third straight summer we will have massive cap space. I want to sign a star just as much as you do, but thats been a wish of ours for damn-near 30 years since we signed Houston. We outbid ourselves for Amare and he gave us a great half season before he became an absolute shell of himself....The free agent cupboard is bare this summer anyway and either this summer or next, we are going to have to make a decision on Randle.

What you are talking about is THE toughest thing to do in the NBA. The problem is really simple. The path to acquiring (drafting) franchise changing talent that can win at a high level, and the path to building a culture that can win at a high level are often two very different paths. Man if there was ever a draft to tank in one might say its this one with 2 tiers of really good looking players. But the only path to ensuring that is tons of losses. Its hard to get those losses AND effectively develop winning players at the same time. There is usually some flip from acquisition mode to team building mode and when you are building that team you want to win every game you can. Its the only way to accurately gauge where you are.

Atkinson would have likely been fine. But how do you run guys out there to get reps and work on stuff, then a year or two later with many of the same guys say ok things are different now because we are trying to win? The option of course is to simply not be good enough to win games. However when the coach is going over tape and teaching guys it gets really old really fast for a young team to be told the constantly need to do x,y,z better. The alternative is to bring in some vets who know how to play and make the kids work for their minutes which is what we are seeing with Thibs now and this Knick crew.

I love the Thibs hire and think he's a great coach. I hate how Obi looks out there and that he hasnt been given a stretch of minutes to get in any rhythm or any plays called for him, but I get why. I hate that Elf is getting any minutes while IQ/Frank/DS are on the roster but I get why. I would love to see guys like Frank/Iggy/KK get the Bullock/Burks minutes also, but I get why.

I am not saying you dont get why... the opposite. You totally get it. The question is it what's best for the Knicks and (of course) only time will tell.

I do think we are far from the purgatory days. I think we will continue to draft well and try to load up on assets. We didnt overpay for role players or trade picks for guys who are only slightly moving the needle. We showed patience and it payed off with Randle. Regardless of what we do with Randle (keep or move) his value is wildly improved from last offseason.

We should learn a lot come deadline. I do hope we are sellers for the simple reason that this season is a big "who phucking cares." I mean there are no fans to cheers so whatever. I am great with using this year as a set up for next.

ALSO... The Mavs are 2nd to last in a stacked West. I do expect them to bounce back some with Luka/Carlisle but I think its more than likely they not only miss the playoffs but might miss by a lot

Getting RJ/Mitch/Randle/IQ into the playoffs isnt just chasing the 8th seed, its getting the start of your core some real experience... I hope

Uptown wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Uptown wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Uptown wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Uptown wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Sambakick wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

Sambakick wrote:

TPercy wrote:We need a PG who can shoot in the worst way.

We do have one who shoots the worst way.

Referring to the one with 20 points, 8 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 TO tonight?

Yes. And i'm an Elf supporter. He has played exactly one good game in the last seven games.

He can be a very solid backup though.

Until Quickley is ready, have to take the good and the bad. Payton plays good D as well.

In these 20 plus games, Quickly has shown more as rookie than any other Knick rookie has since Mark Jackson! We are a fringe playoff team at best, so what are we waiting for? Payton is on a 1 year deal and most likely is not apart of the future. Quick should be allowed to play with and develop alongside RJ, Mitch and Randle who look like they will all be apart of the future of this team moving forward. Payton and his good D can come off the bench...

Here's the problem with Payton starting. Payton has a good game last night (good 1st quarter, so much after) and he's rewarded with 35 mins....Quick explodes for 25 and 31 and can barely crack 25 mins...The leash is a lot longer for Payton because he's a vet and because he starts. In the end, I knew this would be the case if we hired Thibs, riding the vets at the expense of Minutes for our young players (Knox DNP's) while we chase the 9th seed in the play-in games.

thats not fair. Coach is allowed to win games and is supposed to. Before last night ELF had 5 straight games where he didnt crack 25 minutes. Last night Thibs rode him and it was the right night to do so. As for Knox he's been bad. Look at his game logs. He's missing and the Knicks are in the negative every time he's on the floor.

Our vets are not very good, but they do things that the coach needs and he keeps the kids on the short leash when they fail to do those things. IQ has great scoring chops but he's still very raw and makes a lot of mistakes on both sides of the ball.

We are just past 20 games the results are pretty solid no? More wins, higher quality play, clear development from RJ/Mitch/Randle from last year and a 10 man rotation every night even if some of the young guys like Obi are getting token minutes.

Sometimes its good to let kids play through things... other times its clearly NOT. See Kevin Knox... did we do him any justice by just running him out there 30 minutes a night is rookie year? He may just end up being not a very good NBA player so who knows, but you have to let the coaches coach and do their thing also

What's the end-game? What are we trying to accomplish? Are we chasing the 9th or 10th seed for the play-in tournament? And are we doing so even if it means we have to sacrifice valuable playing time and development time for some of our young players for multiple games? It looks that way sometimes....

I'm hoping as we get further into the season we get a better balance of trying to win today verses developing and improving our team tomorrow. My problem is prioritizing journeymen who most likely wont be here next year, over guys who more than likely will be a part of our future moving forward. If we were currently the 4th or 5th seed, then I guess my argument wont hold much weight. But we are 10-13, currently 9th in the east which is almost equivalent to NBA purgatory.

RJ and Mitch have received consistent mins, and I am happy about that. It's one thing when you see Obi getting limited mins behind Randle who is putting up allstar numbers and may have played his way into our future plans and probably will force the front office to make a decision, but its another thing to see Knox collect DNP's behind a journeyman like Bullock while we chase the 8th seed. We know what Bullock is at this point in his NBA career, not sure if we know what 21 year Knox can and will be for us from the bench. I'm hoping this trend is short lived. Not saying Knox needs 30 mins like with Fiz, but there has to be a happy medium. Knox may turn out to be a journeymen just like Bullock, or even worse but its hard to tell from the bench.

And after what Quick has shown this year, there is no reason for him to only get 13 mins of playing time in any game. I just dont want to sacrifice valuable in-game development mins for Knox, Quick and even Obi to a lesser extent, in order to chase the 9th or 10th seed so we can get into the play-in tournament with journeymen that do not factor into our future plans.

How about you play the best basketball your team is capable of playing, and if you only made the 8th or 9th seed look at why. You act like if we cant win 50 we shouldnt win at all. At what point are young players held accountable? Knicks were 25-41 last year and often totally non competitive. This team is in it every night. The best guys are playing right now and they all look at the same tape. I love everything about IQ and I am great with him getting the quick hook for rushing poor shots, not closing out... the stuff that is going to get you pulled by this coach. He seems pretty demanding and pretty fair so far.

Endgame? Build a sustainable winning culture. Acquire star players hopefully and compete for a title. That "acquire" includes homegrown as well. So what if Bullock is an NBA journeyman? We dont have young talent better than that? The answer is right now no we dont.

The ISSUE is that Payton is the actually the best PG on the team right now, not the fact that Thibs is playing him. I understand your thought process... ELF is temporary and gets us no closer to our goal so why not play IQ. Thibs would say rushing IQ and playing undisciplined basketball is no way there either. Based on what I am seeing Thibs is earning my trust and benefit of the doubt. I hate Obi not getting a play called all year for him, but Thibs is Thibs

EVERYONE wanted Randle off the roster this offseason. Now he's underpaid and a tremendous asset. We have a LOT of young guys. I am all for making them beat out the NBA journeyman to get minutes. Earn it. Everyone on the team seems to know exactly what is expected of them. If we make the 8th seed its because we have 8th seed talent. Its only NBA purgatory when you are a team like Wash and are paying your backcourt $70mm. Knicks are all young guys with a couple vets and everyone is on a cheap deal. Thats not purgatory. Knicks are the most flexible team in the league right now. A little draft luck would be great.

First and foremost, I hope you are not reading into my words and assuming that I'm saying Thibs is not a good coach. Before we hired our coach this summer, I was on record saying Atkinson was my Number 1 guy because of his history with developing rosters and young talent. But I was also the one that said Thibs checks most of the boxes. Thibs is a really good coach, no question. He's done a really good job of giving us an identity, one that we have lacked for years. But as good as he is, he is not without his warts.

I agree that young players should be held accountable. Clearly, Thibs is holding his young players accountable as Knox has been pulled from the lineup, Obi gets a quick hook, and as well as Quick has played, we've seen him get a quick hook from time. It's also clear, that the vets have a longer leash than the younger players do.

We've watched Rivers go 5-26 from the field in 5 straight games before his first half explosion against Utah, then follow that up with 2-12 over the next 3. We also watch Rivers over dribble and massage the ball after coming off screens and instead of shooting as he's supposed to. Knox was benched for having such a stretch...you and I both know that Rivers aint getting pulled from the lineup. And lets not pretend like these "vets" that we have come with championship experience or allstar pedigree. Payton doesn't even have playoff experience.

Speaking of Payton, you and I can agree to disagree on Payton being a better pg for this current team. The one thing Payton used to do well and kept him in the league was his playmaking ability. He's averaging 3 asts per game which is half of his career average. Also, this playmaker is putting up more shots than he ever has and is shooting a career worse from the field. His numbers are down across the board. Of late, RJ and Randle have been initiating the offense while Payton has been playing off the ball more which isn't a weakness of his but a strength of Quickleys. One other thing to keep in mind, Payton is always on the court with Randle and RJ, which helps him a ton while Quick is usually on the floor with the 2nd unit. Quickley looked pretty good in the 4th quarter with RJ and Randle and finished with 16, 7 and 6.

Lastly, when I said purgatory, I was thinking of the Orlando Magic. Steve Clifford sat beside Thibs who sat beside Van Gundy so they are from the same coaching tree. Clifford, like Thibs, is a defensive-first culture builder. The Magic were a 7th seed his first year, 8th seed last year and sit 12th this year. Vucevic is a fringe all-star similar to the way Randle has performed this year....One thing I will say about Clifford...when he got the job, instead of handing the keys to the journeymen pg, Augustine, he gave the ball to the future pg right away in Fultz.

I'm going to be totally transparent here and say I would much rather have a favorable chance to land a top 5 pick in a draft that is one of the best in years as opposed to landing the 9th spot in the play-in tournament with Payton Bullock soaking stater minutes. The Orlando Magic are not the team I aspire us to be, battling for 7th and 8th seeds and missing the playoffs by several games for the next few years.

This summer, will be the third straight summer we will have massive cap space. I want to sign a star just as much as you do, but thats been a wish of ours for damn-near 30 years since we signed Houston. We outbid ourselves for Amare and he gave us a great half season before he became an absolute shell of himself....The free agent cupboard is bare this summer anyway and either this summer or next, we are going to have to make a decision on Randle.

good post man. I really enjoy reading your thoughts. You and Crush were probably my fav guys to read on the board. I just appreciate what you are seeing.

What you are talking about is THE toughest thing to do in the NBA. The problem is really simple. The path to acquiring (drafting) franchise changing talent that can win at a high level, and the path to building a culture that can win at a high level are often two very different paths. Man if there was ever a draft to tank in one might say its this one with 2 tiers of really good looking players. But the only path to ensuring that is tons of losses. Its hard to get those losses AND effectively develop winning players at the same time. There is usually some flip from acquisition mode to team building mode and when you are building that team you want to win every game you can. Its the only way to accurately gauge where you are.

Atkinson would have likely been fine. But how do you run guys out there to get reps and work on stuff, then a year or two later with many of the same guys say ok things are different now because we are trying to win? The option of course is to simply not be good enough to win games. However when the coach is going over tape and teaching guys it gets really old really fast for a young team to be told the constantly need to do x,y,z better. The alternative is to bring in some vets who know how to play and make the kids work for their minutes which is what we are seeing with Thibs now and this Knick crew.

I love the Thibs hire and think he's a great coach. I hate how Obi looks out there and that he hasnt been given a stretch of minutes to get in any rhythm or any plays called for him, but I get why. I hate that Elf is getting any minutes while IQ/Frank/DS are on the roster but I get why. I would love to see guys like Frank/Iggy/KK get the Bullock/Burks minutes also, but I get why.

I am not saying you dont get why... the opposite. You totally get it. The question is it what's best for the Knicks and (of course) only time will tell.

I do think we are far from the purgatory days. I think we will continue to draft well and try to load up on assets. We didnt overpay for role players or trade picks for guys who are only slightly moving the needle. We showed patience and it payed off with Randle. Regardless of what we do with Randle (keep or move) his value is wildly improved from last offseason.

We should learn a lot come deadline. I do hope we are sellers for the simple reason that this season is a big "who phucking cares." I mean there are no fans to cheers so whatever. I am great with using this year as a set up for next.

ALSO... The Mavs are 2nd to last in a stacked West. I do expect them to bounce back some with Luka/Carlisle but I think its more than likely they not only miss the playoffs but might miss by a lot

Getting RJ/Mitch/Randle/IQ into the playoffs isnt just chasing the 8th seed, its getting the start of your core some real experience... I hope

Peace Fish....The feeling is mutual!! Always look forward to reading your thoughts. Crush was my guy...

Agreed that we are in a much better space than we have been in years. Ample cap-space, good assets, quality young players that are making an immediate impact (RJ, Mitch, IQ), we're not tied to any massive, cap-killing contracts...And the Randle situation. Like you said, if there was ever a season to finish towards the bottom of the league, its this one. It's impossible to screw-up this pick if you land in the top 5. 6-10 looks better than last draft as well....

My biggest thing is to not skip steps in this rebuild. You nailed it when you said we need to be "Sellers" at the deadline. I cringe at the thought of Lavine soaking up a large portion of our cap while he and Randle play your turn, now my turn. Add JJ Reddick and other fringe players that are being linked to us. Adding players like that or saying all we need is a shooter doesn't move the needle. We need a major, impact player that can help us move to the next tier. We've missed-out on Free agents for decades; the the next major piece we need is waiting for us towards the top of the draft. Hopefully, Dallas continues to implode...

The thought was your core moving forward is IQ/Zach/RJ/Randle/Mitch and just letting them grow together under Thibs. Zach seems like a chucker extraordinaire but he's undeniably skilled. Not really my cup of tea but I have essentially chosen to trust this FO until.

really the next 6 mos will tell us so much. Do we sell at the deadline? Where do our picks end up (we are 6/10 right now ) What do we do with our cap space and what do we do with Randle are all franchise direction changers on the immediate horizon