Since forever i was an anti-fan of Lavine. I put him in the too cool for school group with Wiggins. That said, I may have changed my mind some. He is too undisciplined right now but perhaps that can be fixed???

We need a reliable consistent SF presence in the worst way

Uptown wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Sambakick wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

Sambakick wrote:

TPercy wrote:We need a PG who can shoot in the worst way.

We do have one who shoots the worst way.

Referring to the one with 20 points, 8 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 TO tonight?

Yes. And i'm an Elf supporter. He has played exactly one good game in the last seven games.

He can be a very solid backup though.

Until Quickley is ready, have to take the good and the bad. Payton plays good D as well.

In these 20 plus games, Quickly has shown more as rookie than any other Knick rookie has since Mark Jackson! We are a fringe playoff team at best, so what are we waiting for? Payton is on a 1 year deal and most likely is not apart of the future. Quick should be allowed to play with and develop alongside RJ, Mitch and Randle who look like they will all be apart of the future of this team moving forward. Payton and his good D can come off the bench...

Here's the problem with Payton starting. Payton has a good game last night (good 1st quarter, so much after) and he's rewarded with 35 mins....Quick explodes for 25 and 31 and can barely crack 25 mins...The leash is a lot longer for Payton because he's a vet and because he starts. In the end, I knew this would be the case if we hired Thibs, riding the vets at the expense of Minutes for our young players (Knox DNP's) while we chase the 9th seed in the play-in games.

100% agree. Quick is the future it’s not like we’re a contender. So Why is Payton who has zero future with this team playing more then 20 min a game ? Quick was heating up in the 4 th only to get pulled . Why??? The bulls still went on a run with Payton in he did nothing in the 4th quick couldn’t do plus zero 3 point shot ability...

And I hate the whole well quick has chemistry with the second unit... quick is a fantastic player I have no doubt he would play even better with our best players around him.

wargames wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:

Uptown wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Sambakick wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

Sambakick wrote:

TPercy wrote:We need a PG who can shoot in the worst way.

We do have one who shoots the worst way.

Referring to the one with 20 points, 8 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 TO tonight?

Yes. And i'm an Elf supporter. He has played exactly one good game in the last seven games.

He can be a very solid backup though.

Until Quickley is ready, have to take the good and the bad. Payton plays good D as well.

In these 20 plus games, Quickly has shown more as rookie than any other Knick rookie has since Mark Jackson! We are a fringe playoff team at best, so what are we waiting for? Payton is on a 1 year deal and most likely is not apart of the future. Quick should be allowed to play with and develop alongside RJ, Mitch and Randle who look like they will all be apart of the future of this team moving forward. Payton and his good D can come off the bench...

Here's the problem with Payton starting. Payton has a good game last night (good 1st quarter, so much after) and he's rewarded with 35 mins....Quick explodes for 25 and 31 and can barely crack 25 mins...The leash is a lot longer for Payton because he's a vet and because he starts. In the end, I knew this would be the case if we hired Thibs, riding the vets at the expense of Minutes for our young players (Knox DNP's) while we chase the 9th seed in the play-in games.

100% agree. Quick is the future it’s not like we’re a contender. So Why is Payton who has zero future with this team playing more then 20 min a game ? Quick was heating up in the 4 th only to get pulled . Why??? The bulls still went on a run with Payton in he did nothing in the 4th quick couldn’t do plus zero 3 point shot ability...

And I hate the whole well quick has chemistry with the second unit... quick is a fantastic player I have no doubt he would play even better with our best players around him.

Thibs don’t care what we as fans think or what the media thinks and he shows us this with his lineups every game.

Impatience, thy name is UK. We've got a college player of the year, who some are ready to chuck out with yesterday's septic waste after less than 20 games, a defensive freak who's still learning how to play the game in Mitch who generates a trade thread every 15 minutes, and a stellar PG who's one year out from one decent season at Kentucky and we deperately need to burn him into the ground.

Maybe Thibs and his staff possibly know what they're doing with Quick?

Frankie's perpetually hurt and in full time doghouse residence with DSJ. Elf is all we got to sit in front of Quick and keep him from getting some stupid injury.

Patience.

Nalod wrote:LEts stay away from Zach Lavine in a trade. His defense is awful and an undisciplined checker. He can get buckets.

Zack Lavine is not much of an upgrade over Austin rivers. I wouldn't mind trading for him, but I wouldve give up any significant assets for him. He doesn't fill any major needs, other than having another shooter. Our offensive guards are not the most deciplined already. But our guards have better defensive IQ. As far as Burks and Bullock. I dont see the rush in this trade.

Uptown wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Uptown wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Sambakick wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

Sambakick wrote:

TPercy wrote:We need a PG who can shoot in the worst way.

We do have one who shoots the worst way.

Referring to the one with 20 points, 8 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 TO tonight?

Yes. And i'm an Elf supporter. He has played exactly one good game in the last seven games.

He can be a very solid backup though.

Until Quickley is ready, have to take the good and the bad. Payton plays good D as well.

In these 20 plus games, Quickly has shown more as rookie than any other Knick rookie has since Mark Jackson! We are a fringe playoff team at best, so what are we waiting for? Payton is on a 1 year deal and most likely is not apart of the future. Quick should be allowed to play with and develop alongside RJ, Mitch and Randle who look like they will all be apart of the future of this team moving forward. Payton and his good D can come off the bench...

Here's the problem with Payton starting. Payton has a good game last night (good 1st quarter, so much after) and he's rewarded with 35 mins....Quick explodes for 25 and 31 and can barely crack 25 mins...The leash is a lot longer for Payton because he's a vet and because he starts. In the end, I knew this would be the case if we hired Thibs, riding the vets at the expense of Minutes for our young players (Knox DNP's) while we chase the 9th seed in the play-in games.

thats not fair. Coach is allowed to win games and is supposed to. Before last night ELF had 5 straight games where he didnt crack 25 minutes. Last night Thibs rode him and it was the right night to do so. As for Knox he's been bad. Look at his game logs. He's missing and the Knicks are in the negative every time he's on the floor.

Our vets are not very good, but they do things that the coach needs and he keeps the kids on the short leash when they fail to do those things. IQ has great scoring chops but he's still very raw and makes a lot of mistakes on both sides of the ball.

We are just past 20 games the results are pretty solid no? More wins, higher quality play, clear development from RJ/Mitch/Randle from last year and a 10 man rotation every night even if some of the young guys like Obi are getting token minutes.

Sometimes its good to let kids play through things... other times its clearly NOT. See Kevin Knox... did we do him any justice by just running him out there 30 minutes a night is rookie year? He may just end up being not a very good NBA player so who knows, but you have to let the coaches coach and do their thing also

What's the end-game? What are we trying to accomplish? Are we chasing the 9th or 10th seed for the play-in tournament? And are we doing so even if it means we have to sacrifice valuable playing time and development time for some of our young players for multiple games? It looks that way sometimes....

I'm hoping as we get further into the season we get a better balance of trying to win today verses developing and improving our team tomorrow. My problem is prioritizing journeymen who most likely wont be here next year, over guys who more than likely will be a part of our future moving forward. If we were currently the 4th or 5th seed, then I guess my argument wont hold much weight. But we are 10-13, currently 9th in the east which is almost equivalent to NBA purgatory.

RJ and Mitch have received consistent mins, and I am happy about that. It's one thing when you see Obi getting limited mins behind Randle who is putting up allstar numbers and may have played his way into our future plans and probably will force the front office to make a decision, but its another thing to see Knox collect DNP's behind a journeyman like Bullock while we chase the 8th seed. We know what Bullock is at this point in his NBA career, not sure if we know what 21 year Knox can and will be for us from the bench. I'm hoping this trend is short lived. Not saying Knox needs 30 mins like with Fiz, but there has to be a happy medium. Knox may turn out to be a journeymen just like Bullock, or even worse but its hard to tell from the bench.

And after what Quick has shown this year, there is no reason for him to only get 13 mins of playing time in any game. I just dont want to sacrifice valuable in-game development mins for Knox, Quick and even Obi to a lesser extent, in order to chase the 9th or 10th seed so we can get into the play-in tournament with journeymen that do not factor into our future plans.

I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum of thinking on this. Thibs gave guys like DSJr, Knox, IQ, Obi plenty of leeway to EARN minutes - from the very start he put them in games - and those guy needed to grab that opportunity by the neck and squeeze so tight someone's eyes pop out. IQ did that and performed. Kevin was given 15 minutes a game fairly consistently (give or take) for 15+ games and got WORSE as the games went on. He didn't do the things on the court to earn playing time.

I get that fair balance of allowing young guys to make mistakes but DSJr and Kevin were making the same ones over and over and over and not correcting them.

The team is built on defense. If you play guys like DSJr and Kevin you will take away from the team on those accounts. You will take away from JR, Randle and Mitch and their development.

There has to be balance some times. It's not just about Knox but also about the other guys on the court and what is good for them too

Learning to do the things to WIN is a skill to be learned IMHO

Nalod wrote:Looked like Quick last night was on the floor when the momentum shifted and Bulls made a big comeback. Rivers had a lot to do with that also.
Payton helped get stops. We won.
I agree with JROD, “all in due time”. Quick when spot on finishes the games. Thats huge. Last night we built a nice lead with Payton. Can’t blame hm for the bad and leave out the good. Do I love Elf? Nope. But he has earned his place and is a stop gap.
Thibs is being Uber patient with Rivers perhaps out of respect. Austin sounds like a coach in the making and is a vet who chose to come here. I thought he has spent some time with Daddy Doc. He has not been consistent and its his turnovers and defensive mistakes that is more apparent then his shooting. Under the surface I don’t know the story so drawing conclusions is not easy for me. Appears you let a vet play himself out of a spot where a rookie has to earn his way in.
Maybe Frank asked to be in Gleague or it was determined “Naw” by both sides.

I’d like to see Quick and Frank get a 10 game run and see if the chemistry works. We are fast approaching the end of the line for Frank if it is to be that, and if FO is still out on this then so be it.
For all we know Frank might might have other teams interested in him either now or when restricted.

100%

Uptown wrote:

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:Looked like Quick last night was on the floor when the momentum shifted and Bulls made a big comeback. Rivers had a lot to do with that also.
Payton helped get stops. We won.
I agree with JROD, “all in due time”. Quick when spot on finishes the games. Thats huge. Last night we built a nice lead with Payton. Can’t blame hm for the bad and leave out the good. Do I love Elf? Nope. But he has earned his place and is a stop gap.
Thibs is being Uber patient with Rivers perhaps out of respect. Austin sounds like a coach in the making and is a vet who chose to come here. I thought he has spent some time with Daddy Doc. He has not been consistent and its his turnovers and defensive mistakes that is more apparent then his shooting. Under the surface I don’t know the story so drawing conclusions is not easy for me. Appears you let a vet play himself out of a spot where a rookie has to earn his way in.
Maybe Frank asked to be in Gleague or it was determined “Naw” by both sides.

I’d like to see Quick and Frank get a 10 game run and see if the chemistry works. We are fast approaching the end of the line for Frank if it is to be that, and if FO is still out on this then so be it.
For all we know Frank might might have other teams interested in him either now or when restricted.

100%

Last 6 games before last night:

Payton

Mins fg pts ast
31 3-12 7 3
24 3-8 8 2
21 2-7 4 2
23 1-6 2 3
21 3-7 10 3
18 2-5 5 0

Quickley

Mins fg pts ast
17 3-9 8 4
24 9-18 31 4
23 1-11 6 1
25 9-17 25 3
27 9-16 25 3
30 5-13 16 7

Looks to me like a classic case of a Vet that played himself out of his spot and the rook earning his way in....

Good look. No need to for a coronation to grant thy Quick the starting job. He is a work in progress and is learning at a great pace.

Uptown wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Uptown wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Sambakick wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

Sambakick wrote:

TPercy wrote:We need a PG who can shoot in the worst way.

We do have one who shoots the worst way.

Referring to the one with 20 points, 8 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 TO tonight?

Yes. And i'm an Elf supporter. He has played exactly one good game in the last seven games.

He can be a very solid backup though.

Until Quickley is ready, have to take the good and the bad. Payton plays good D as well.

In these 20 plus games, Quickly has shown more as rookie than any other Knick rookie has since Mark Jackson! We are a fringe playoff team at best, so what are we waiting for? Payton is on a 1 year deal and most likely is not apart of the future. Quick should be allowed to play with and develop alongside RJ, Mitch and Randle who look like they will all be apart of the future of this team moving forward. Payton and his good D can come off the bench...

Here's the problem with Payton starting. Payton has a good game last night (good 1st quarter, so much after) and he's rewarded with 35 mins....Quick explodes for 25 and 31 and can barely crack 25 mins...The leash is a lot longer for Payton because he's a vet and because he starts. In the end, I knew this would be the case if we hired Thibs, riding the vets at the expense of Minutes for our young players (Knox DNP's) while we chase the 9th seed in the play-in games.

thats not fair. Coach is allowed to win games and is supposed to. Before last night ELF had 5 straight games where he didnt crack 25 minutes. Last night Thibs rode him and it was the right night to do so. As for Knox he's been bad. Look at his game logs. He's missing and the Knicks are in the negative every time he's on the floor.

Our vets are not very good, but they do things that the coach needs and he keeps the kids on the short leash when they fail to do those things. IQ has great scoring chops but he's still very raw and makes a lot of mistakes on both sides of the ball.

We are just past 20 games the results are pretty solid no? More wins, higher quality play, clear development from RJ/Mitch/Randle from last year and a 10 man rotation every night even if some of the young guys like Obi are getting token minutes.

Sometimes its good to let kids play through things... other times its clearly NOT. See Kevin Knox... did we do him any justice by just running him out there 30 minutes a night is rookie year? He may just end up being not a very good NBA player so who knows, but you have to let the coaches coach and do their thing also

What's the end-game? What are we trying to accomplish? Are we chasing the 9th or 10th seed for the play-in tournament? And are we doing so even if it means we have to sacrifice valuable playing time and development time for some of our young players for multiple games? It looks that way sometimes....

I'm hoping as we get further into the season we get a better balance of trying to win today verses developing and improving our team tomorrow. My problem is prioritizing journeymen who most likely wont be here next year, over guys who more than likely will be a part of our future moving forward. If we were currently the 4th or 5th seed, then I guess my argument wont hold much weight. But we are 10-13, currently 9th in the east which is almost equivalent to NBA purgatory.

RJ and Mitch have received consistent mins, and I am happy about that. It's one thing when you see Obi getting limited mins behind Randle who is putting up allstar numbers and may have played his way into our future plans and probably will force the front office to make a decision, but its another thing to see Knox collect DNP's behind a journeyman like Bullock while we chase the 8th seed. We know what Bullock is at this point in his NBA career, not sure if we know what 21 year Knox can and will be for us from the bench. I'm hoping this trend is short lived. Not saying Knox needs 30 mins like with Fiz, but there has to be a happy medium. Knox may turn out to be a journeymen just like Bullock, or even worse but its hard to tell from the bench.

And after what Quick has shown this year, there is no reason for him to only get 13 mins of playing time in any game. I just dont want to sacrifice valuable in-game development mins for Knox, Quick and even Obi to a lesser extent, in order to chase the 9th or 10th seed so we can get into the play-in tournament with journeymen that do not factor into our future plans.

Endgame? Build a sustainable winning culture. Acquire star players hopefully and compete for a title. That "acquire" includes homegrown as well. So what if Bullock is an NBA journeyman? We dont have young talent better than that? The answer is right now no we dont.

The ISSUE is that Payton is the actually the best PG on the team right now, not the fact that Thibs is playing him. I understand your thought process... ELF is temporary and gets us no closer to our goal so why not play IQ. Thibs would say rushing IQ and playing undisciplined basketball is no way there either. Based on what I am seeing Thibs is earning my trust and benefit of the doubt. I hate Obi not getting a play called all year for him, but Thibs is Thibs

EVERYONE wanted Randle off the roster this offseason. Now he's underpaid and a tremendous asset. We have a LOT of young guys. I am all for making them beat out the NBA journeyman to get minutes. Earn it. Everyone on the team seems to know exactly what is expected of them. If we make the 8th seed its because we have 8th seed talent. Its only NBA purgatory when you are a team like Wash and are paying your backcourt $70mm. Knicks are all young guys with a couple vets and everyone is on a cheap deal. Thats not purgatory. Knicks are the most flexible team in the league right now. A little draft luck would be great.

Same too for KK and Obi

there are no guaranteed minutes. Earn them and re-earn them. Not saying that's the only way to coach. there have certainly been instances where we say Thibs should be letting other guys play because the game is settled. But there are no mixed messages with this guy