I suppose I was thinking more in terms of age vs NBA experience. And my criteria is a player taking his game to a new level, rather than becoming a #1 option which is a tough thing to quantify.

If you want to be technical, there should only be 29 (now 30) #1 options in the NBA. Until this year, Kobe was technically a #2 man; Yao Ming was a #2, etc. I'm not concerned with that--- I'm thinking in terms of this: Can an also-ran player make the leap to impact player after being mediocre for years?

I think there's enough evidence to think that TT can elevate his game at his age--- but IMHO in order to be a top-two scoring option on your team, you need to be on a bad team or simply be exceptional. I don't think either situation applies with TT--- he's good, he can contribute on a good team... but you're not afraid that he'll drop 20 on a consistent basis. There are too many other excellent scoring options on the Knicks for us to go to him enough times to get his 20... unless of course he shows big improvements (ie he demands the ball and the coach calls his number a lot).

(note:Guys who've played international ball or in the CBA often are older to begin with once they crack the NBA--- so that factors into advanced age of some of these breakthroughs)

As far as my late-breakthrough guys go:

In the case of Starks, he really broke through at age 28 (all-star).

Anthony Mason became a first-time All-star in his 2000-2001 season with the Miami Heat at the ripe old age of 34. I suppose I forgot about his fantastic 96-97 season (year 8 of his NBA career-- age 31). After the Knicks, he had the opportunity to get more touches and actually started taking (and making) some mid-range jumpers. As a Knick, he was just a brutal, banging, defensive force... and started developing in his partial season under Don Nelson.
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/anthony_mason/printable_player_files.html

You're right, it took Cassell only until his 5th season for him to truly burst into the scene with a 19.3ppg average in 23 games when he was traded to the Nets. His breakthrough truly occurred when he averaged 19.6 for the whole 97-98 season, at age 28.

Jayson Williams never was a top 2 scoring option, but he was a nice #3 guy who averaged 13.4ppg 13.5rpg in his 7th season after complete mediocrity early in his career.
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/jayson_williams/printable_player_files.html

Posted by OldFan:

<snip>

I wouldn't say any of these guys had their first breakout year after year 8. Only a few of them were ever their teams first offensive option.

Anthony Mason played great ball in NY. I don't think he got any better in Charlotte just more minutes. He left NY after 7 years. I think he
was just as good in 92-93 (his 4th year) and I would take Mason in year 4 over TT in year 8 anyday.

Starks had is best year in 93-94 (his 5th year)

Cassell - Hell he killed the knicks in the finals his rookie year. He has improved late in his career - but he was pretty established by year 5 or 6.

Jayson Williams - Never a go to guy. Best year was his 7th.

Ben Wallace - is basically the same player he was 4 years ago which was his 5th year. He's improved slightly and gotten a TON more recognition.

Petrovic - Only played 5 years - was averaging 20 by his 4th.

[/quote]

phil would most definately be a good coach for timmy and marbury. the fact is marbury can get to the paint at will, and if he isnt doubled, he's gonna either get fouled or score a very high percent of the time. jordan had the same skill, of course his was on a much larger scale. the only reason y someone would say phil wont be good for marbury is bc of what happened to payton but payton isnt as talented of a driver as marbury, so its like comparing apples and oranges. marbury, tim, and crawford would thrive under phil jacksons coaching. i wouldnt be too unhappy if the knicks played liek crap this year so phil can come in and put the finishing touches on our talents.

Posted by rojasmas:

I read awhile back that Phil "the smug one" Jackson didn't particularly care for Stephon Marbury's game. So unless the money is unbelievable, don't count on him coming here to coach a Marbury led team anytime soon.

If Steph leads the team to a good season, Phil will change his view.

I agree that TT is the most talented offensive player on our team. I also agree that he should be our "go to guy". In a perfect world he would be. But unfortunately the world is not perfect. What I do not agree with is that it is Lenny and IT's responsibility to turn TT into a go to guy. It is Tim's responsibility. Everyone on the planet(especially his coach's and teammates) know he is talented. But it is up to TT and only TT to step up and become a leader. Not someone else's responsibility to make him a leader.

We talked about who Azira reminded us of?

Now we get to play around with TT.

TT is modern day overpaid Cazzie Russell.

Except his hamstrings are better!

http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkxMDYmZmdiZWw3Zjd2cWVlRUV5eTY2MDY5MzAmeXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2

Knicks want a consistent Tim

Monday, November 1, 2004

By STEVE ADAMEK
STAFF WRITER

GREENBURGH, N.Y. - Watching Tim Thomas score 19 third-quarter points in the Knicks' preseason finale last week prompted the same question raised in Philadelphia, when he first entered the NBA, then in Milwaukee and now in New York.

Why?

Why can't he be as productive almost every night, if not all in one fell swoop, then at least over four quarters?

Why can he light it up one night, then not even hold a candle another?

"That's been the mystery all along," said Lenny Wilkens, his latest coach - but not the first to pose the query. George Karl and Terry Porter did in Milwaukee. Larry Brown did in Philadelphia.

All that talent, but no consistency. The Paterson Catholic product has worn that label like a scarlet letter for seven seasons now, offering occasional glimpses of what he can be, but never flinging open the curtains to reveal everything others believe he should be.

"That's the guy we need," Wilkens said of the glimpse he saw last week and, occasionally, before. "If we could get him that way every night, it would certainly help a lot."

That's because, particularly until Allan Houston returns, the Knicks need all the scoring they can get. Thomas has occasionally demonstrated he can carry a team with his offense, both inside with his athletic ability and outside, where he's a 36.2 percent three-point career shooter.

At 27, however, it's about time for him to either establish the consistency three teams and four coaches have sought from him or he'll continue to wear the label he's worn like an albatross since leaving Villanova after just one season to play for pay.

Maddening.

"That comes with practice, having confidence in yourself and that's basically it," he said about establishing consistency. "You've just got to continue to work, continue to have confidence in what you can do and your abilities."

In that regard, Wilkens said he and his staff have been working with Thomas on his interior game, trying to get him to use his shoulders, plus the five to 10 pounds he's added this season to create more space for himself in and around the plate. That, plus his quickness and 6 feet, 10 inches, he and they believe, could make him a tougher cover for his smaller counterparts at small forward.

Yet, Thomas won't put a number on what it will take to prove his growth as a player after averaging a career-high 14.7 points last season, including 15.8 points after he came to the Knicks from Milwaukee for another maddeningly inconsistent player, Keith Van Horn. Instead he offers the standard platitudes of how it's not the numbers, but winning that matters.

That's fine, except putting up consistent numbers as the Knicks' second or third option enhances their chances of winning.

"I'm going to be that guy," he said.

Another coach and another team are waiting.

KNICKS BRIEFS: Barring injury or a change of heart today, Wilkens expects Wednesday's starting five in Minnesota to contain no surprises: center Nazr Mohammed, forwards Kurt and Tim Thomas and guards Jamal Crawford and Stephon Marbury.

As for the roster decisions the Knicks must make by 6 p.m. today, Wilkens plans to wait until the last minute, although it's likely Houston - who again didn't scrimmage Sunday - center Bruno Sundov and point guard Jamison Brewer will start on the injured list and sit out at least the first five games. That means Shandon Anderson, pending a last-minute buyout or trade, neither of which is expected, fills the final spot on the 12-man active roster.

E-mail: adamek@northjersey.com